Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

[S7Michelle]

A few aspects of the “Classes of Minds†for Mental powers have been bothering me for quite a while now. And since I have some free time, I thought I’d post and ask if someone could explain the logic behind this for me.

 

 

Aspect 1: The following two powers (taken from the Until Superpowers Database) cost the same number of points.

 

Control Plants: Mind Control 10d6 (Plant Class of Minds) Total Cost 50 points. (The character can mentally control intelligent plants and plantlike beings)

 

Mental Control: Mind Control 10d6 (Human Class of Minds) Total Cost 50 points. (The character can mentally control humans)

 

However, at least in every game I’ve ever played they are incredibly far from being equally valuable. I’ve never seen an intelligent plant in any game I’ve played and can only think of one or two I’ve ever even seen mentioned.

 

The discrepancy isn’t as great for the animal, technology, and alien class minds. However, I’m playing a character that can just affect animal class minds, and even with a very good GM, I’ve still seen a lot more situations where being able to control human minds would be far more useful than my ability to control animals. To be honest, at times, (even though it is totally out of concept), I’m tempted to buy the ability to affect humans mind class on my powers just because it would far more than double the powers usefulness.

 

 

Aspect 2: Being an individual that belongs to one of the rarer classes of minds provides quite a bit of protection for no point cost.

 

At one point, our group had three humans, one alien, one ghost, and four dogs (followers). In order for the GM to create a mentalist that could affect the entire group she’d have had to create one that could affect Human, Animal, Alien, and Undead mind classes. Useful for the group I suppose. Still, considering how few mentalists I’ve seen with the Undead Mind Class (one total), it does seem a bit unfair that one player would be safe from a 15d6 mental attack from practically every mentalist we’d come across.

 

Maybe I’m missing something. But something just seems really out of whack here.

 

I guess there must have been some significant flaw with the old way of doing it. (Having "only effects a certain type of being" as a limitation). But it seems like there should be a more fair way of doing it. Possibly something along the lines of what they did with invisibility and flash where some groups cost more than others.

[DrFurious]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Maybe I’m missing something. But something just seems really out of whack here.

 

I guess there must have been some significant flaw with the old way of doing it. (Having "only effects a certain type of being" as a limitation). But it seems like there should be a more fair way of doing it. Possibly something along the lines of what they did with invisibility and flash where some groups cost more than others.

 

You're right. The class of minds thing could be considered a required -0 limitation - except for the fact that in the circumstances you've mentioned they would be higher value limitations. In fact, I'd probably just chuck it out altogther and say that if it's got anything that qualifies as a mind, you can affect it - with a proviso on the power's special effect. Anything that the special effect wouldn't be likely to cover would require a Power skill roll (as a power stunt) to use (IMO, this skill doesn't nearly see enough use in most games). Does this reward sfx that are broad? Sure, but not every restriction on a power needs to be written out and deliminated beforehand.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Yes, I would also consider "Classes of Minds" to be a required -0 limitation for mental powers, then depending on the genre, setting etc, the value would change.

 

For example, a character with Mind Control: Animals in a Fantasy genre (where animals are about as common as people) would be a -0 limitation. However, in a modern day campaign where animals are less common it would be a -1/2 limtation. In a scifi campaign that is set on a space station, it could be as high as -1, however in a galactic explorers campaign, where the PC's commonly encounter alien fauna, it could be only -1/4 or even -0.

[Magmarock]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

While I like the idea of recognizing the different classes of minds, I think the 5th Edition rules requiring Mentalists to pay more to affect them all are unfair.

 

No other attack form is limited to certain targets like the Mental powers are now, yet the cost for Mental powers remains the same. To create a mentalist that can affect all normal targets- like the energy blaster's EB can, or the brick's punch can- the PC has to be built with significantly more character points. And in campaigns where the Active Point is capped, the Mentalist PC is hampered even more.

 

I'm sure there is a reasonable way to even out this problem. Any suggestions out there?

 

I thought the 4th Ed was better in this regard, when a Mentalist could take a Limitation on a power for not being able to affect certain classes of minds. It made much more sense and didn't hurt the Mentalist character for game balance.

 

 

 

Mags

[Sociotard]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

I might chime in that, if a big part of your concept and point allocation is the ability to control animals, a good GM would then try to put more animals in the game than he normally would, so you could enjoy yourself. All the guards walk around with german shepherds, all the masterminds have DNPC cats, etc.

 

I might also chime in that I wouldn't ever let a character take another class of minds, or, at the very least, make up some point cost for taking it. My reason? Mechanon. He's a robot, and the author could have given him the machine class of minds, but he didn't. He's described such that his cognitive circuits are so human, he can be affected by normal mental powers.

 

That having been said, a limitation on mental powers that affect a somewhat rare class of minds doesn't sound half bad. Another possibility, a house rule I've considered, would be to allow a mentalist to affect all minds. If a mind isn't one he bought a class for, that mind is treated as if it had 50% resistant mental Damage Reduction. Oh sure, the animal-based mentalist has a hard time reading humans, but he can sort of do it. A little. I've never actually tried this, so I've no idea how it would work.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

I tend to ignore this rule for free willed Spirits, intelligent animals, AIs and Aliens. It doesn't fit any genre of fiction I've ever read. I will allow non-human characters to buy Mental Defnese or Mental Damage Reduction defined as "Non-Human Mind", and I will force mentalists encountering a new class of mind to make a Power Skill roll, but that's it.

 

I do require mental powers that work on Non-Sentient machines (i.e. Cyberpsi) to be defined as such, and I don't allow those powers to cross over unless extra points are paid.

[Vorsch]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

All sentient organic/natural minds should be affected with standard Mental powers. All fiction ive read supports this tradition.

 

Machines on the other hand are rarely affected by mental powers. But this sort of requires Machine control powers to be able to afect Non sentient machines as well, IE any programed device should have int ego and MD ( machine only ).

 

so i would go with 3 class of minds, only two of which can be pcs

 

Sentient ( aliens humans etc )

Animal ( non sentient )

Machine ( dis-ad easily afected by computer prog )

[Zeropoint]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Maybe add another category for really, really alien, like stuff from the Qliphthothic realm (however you spell that).

 

Zeropoint.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Maybe add another category for really' date=' really alien, like stuff from the Qliphthothic realm (however you spell that).[/quote']

 

Let them buy Mental Defense (or mental damage reduction). If they will be a common campaign feature, then I would expect mkentalists can affect them by default. If not, then it's really not that big a deal to buy them mental defense (perhaps limited to reflect the fact that others from the Qliphthothic realm are not affected by their mental defense).

 

The problem still exists, however, that the ability to affect the "animal class" and/or the "machine class" should not be as expensive as the ability to affect the "sentient" class. What about a system where "sentient" is the default, "affects animal class" and "affects machine class" are advantages, and "does not affect sentients" is a limitation?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Personally, I would expect that a mentalist making contact with a Lovecraftian extra-dimensional non-euclidean quasi-diety would get a one-way ticket to a rubber room. (sanity-draining damage shield?)

 

Hey, wait...if it's just a matter of being incredibly alien, then WE should have the same effect on THEM. If this doesn't happen, it suggests that the extra-dimensional beings should have a power set.

 

But, really, your proposal makes sense. The basic premise of the Hero system is that point cost should reflect usefullness.

 

Zeropoint

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

While I like the idea of recognizing the different classes of minds, I think the 5th Edition rules requiring Mentalists to pay more to affect them all are unfair.

 

No other attack form is limited to certain targets like the Mental powers are now, yet the cost for Mental powers remains the same. To create a mentalist that can affect all normal targets- like the energy blaster's EB can, or the brick's punch can- the PC has to be built with significantly more character points. And in campaigns where the Active Point is capped, the Mentalist PC is hampered even more.

 

I'm sure there is a reasonable way to even out this problem. Any suggestions out there?

 

I thought the 4th Ed was better in this regard, when a Mentalist could take a Limitation on a power for not being able to affect certain classes of minds. It made much more sense and didn't hurt the Mentalist character for game balance.

 

 

 

Mags

I agree with this. I think the "class of minds" (CoM) discussion in 5th was interesting and made for good material for consideration, but this is one of several instances where I do not think the added rules (which are fairly loosey-goosey when you consider how much SFX will mess with them anyway) were necessary at all.

 

CoM should be either a Limitation construct (Plants Only) and/or a basis for discussion of what constitutes legitimate Mental targets and how to keep those broad enough. By default, machines don't typically fall into the same CoM that the "traditional" (pre-cyber) mentalists could target, as they targetted either sentient or human minds. But otherwise, CoM really is WAY more SFX-based and I don't see an issue with discussing pros and cons of various CoMs, but the way the CoM constuct was "finalized" is lacking.

 

Let's say your Mental commands are based on language and are carried by electrochemical messages that can be received by anything vaguely similar to the mammal/reptile/bird brain; by default, your CoM will be almost all animals (maybe not insects, that's a player/GM/SFX thing), but you'll be limited as to how well the recipient responds to English words and tone of speaking. Is this a Limitation? In most games, no. Does this mean I can tell Fido, mentally, "SIT!", even though it's not a human CoM? Absolutely.

 

Just a small example, there are myriad others.

 

Anyway, getting back to the original post, I could see two interpretations:

 

1 - Yes, Plants Only is a Limitation because it will limit your power.

 

2 - No, because as suggested elsewhere the GM will stock plants around, but ALSO, I could see allowing for a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for - such as ordering plants to Entangle a victim. And why not? I can order a person to grab someone. Differences with plants would be that there would be more exotic varieties of interaction - multiple limbs, climbing vines, and so on, including very exotic plants such as Human-Sized Venus Flytrap Killers, depending on the genre.

[DrFurious]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Anyway, getting back to the original post, I could see two interpretations:

 

1 - Yes, Plants Only is a Limitation because it will limit your power.

 

2 - No, because as suggested elsewhere the GM will stock plants around, but ALSO, I could see allowing for a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for - such as ordering plants to Entangle a victim. And why not? I can order a person to grab someone. Differences with plants would be that there would be more exotic varieties of interaction - multiple limbs, climbing vines, and so on, including very exotic plants such as Human-Sized Venus Flytrap Killers, depending on the genre.

 

Just to explore the second interpretation, plants in general are not able to act in the manner suggested. I personally don't know of any vines that wrap themselves around a target. Even if this differs in a campaign, you could apply the same idea toward a standard version of Mind Control. You could MC a group of normals to entangle an opponent. That said, what about controlling supers to attack your target with either powers? It can be argued that this use allows for "a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for"? IMO, requiring the player to pay more because there are instances where the target will have more exotic varieties of interaction is already taken care of in the original cost of the power.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Just to explore the second interpretation' date=' plants in general are not able to act in the manner suggested. I personally don't know of any vines that wrap themselves around a target. Even if this differs in a campaign, you could apply the same idea toward a standard version of Mind Control. You could MC a group of normals to entangle an opponent. That said, what about controlling supers to attack your target with either powers? It can be argued that this use allows for "a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for"? IMO, requiring the player to pay more because there are instances where the target will have more exotic varieties of interaction is already taken care of in the original cost of the power.[/quote']

I think the difference is just that with plants, as you say, they can't do that in "regular" life of the typical game whereas people can exercise such abilities. The PC with such an MC basically picks up a bunch of surprise maneuvers and "unrealistic" abilities (potentially) in the 2nd interpretation. I agree with you in any case, it's covered in the MC power intrinsically, I'm just expanding on the issues.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

I think the difference is just that with plants' date=' as you say, they can't do that in "regular" life of the typical game whereas people can exercise such abilities. The PC with such an MC basically picks up a bunch of surprise maneuvers and "unrealistic" abilities (potentially) in the 2nd interpretation. I agree with you in any case, it's covered in the MC power intrinsically, I'm just expanding on the issues.[/quote']

 

I've had players who took Mind Control: Plants and Mind Control: Fish as powers. I gave them both limits to reflect how little use I expected those powers to be in that campaign.

 

There are many powers that, like this, vary in value from campaign to campaign.

[dbsousa]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

Within the rules, I would classify "Plants" as a Limited Class of Alien minds, seeing as any plant with a mind is alien to this world.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

I agree with dbsousa, "Plants" are a form of "Alien" Mind Class, with a limitation..

 

Here's how we handle the CoM issue in our games.

 

We don't alter the Base 4: Human, Animal, Alien, Machine - you choose one to default and then if you only effect a certain element you get a Limitation from that Default.

 

Mind Control: Plants; Class of Mind - Alien, Limitation: Plants Only

Mind Control: Fish; Class of Mind - Animal, Limitation: Fish Only

Mind Control: Undead; Class of Mind - Human, Limitation: Undead Only

 

Values differ by campaign, so I left them off.

 

The four categories are broad in my personal interpretation. I'd go so far as Human would include Fantasy Races in a Fantasty Campaign, and Mutants in a Supers Campaign, and so on.

 

and then you can, through Diads, mix and match a character. A Werewolf Character could conceivable have both Human and Animal elements in their mental makeup thus allowing for a Physical Limitation: Animal Mind to a lesser degree than a base animal (say, a 5pt Physical Limitation) to represent that their Instincts are closer to the surface.

 

I don't see any reason to penalize a Mental Character by adding yet more, and narrower, Classes of Minds to a game, such as CoM: Plants or Undead.

[JMHammer]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

In my interpretation- If you have Mind Control: Plants and want a weeping willow to grab someone, it won't do anything. Weeping willows don't move, except growth, certain responses to light, or in response to external forces such as wind, and the first two cases care very, very slow. If you want normal terretrial plants to be able to properly respond to such commands as "Grab and hold that bank robber," this is probably best handled as an indirect telekinesis or entangle with the limitation that an appropriate plant has to be in the right spot. Remember that with Hero, we model the effect, not the cause.

 

Similarly, if you want to mind control cars then you can start them (maybe) and control a few other things like the radio (depending on whether these things are "computer controlled" or require some physical action), but steering and acceleration are right out. And you probably can't control anything on an Edsel or Model T. Again, instead of mind control use telekinesis that only works on cars and only to make it move in ways that it would move with an operator/passengers or, if you're really only using the cars to smash into targets, it's an energy blast with the indirect advantage and the limitation that there has to be a nearby vehicle and the target has to be in a location that said vehicle can reach.

 

But back to the main topic: I agree strongly with several people in this thread that the classes of mind issue has to be heavily house-ruled in order to properly represent the value of the particular effect that the player or GM wishes to create. The value is very highly dependent on the special-effects and other "narrative" particulars of what the effect is supposed to be able to do and how it is supposed to work and the particulars of the campaign. Mind Control: Animals Only would probably be worth more points to Tarzan than it would be to Captain Kirk.

 

Is your mind control drug-based and delivered with a hypodermic dart? Well, this isn't going to work on ghosts or mechanical robots or The Slime Creature from Outer Space. Is your ability to speak with animals, which you bought as Telepathy, based on you having been raised by dingoes as a baby and just having a deep understanding of animal communication? Well, it's not going to help you to probe the mind of Dr. Demento nor will you be able to communicate with Ice Monster Zero.

 

In one of my typical supers campaigns, to manage a typical super mentalist who just defined his mind control as a generic mental telepathic effect with no special conditions (which, let's face it, is the most common way for a player or a GM to define such a power), then it has full effect on humans; full effect on other "normal" living things such as lions and mosquitos (ability to respond to commands depends on complexity of the command and intelligence of the animal, so good luck getting a dog to "Turn on the computer and send an email to everyone in my contact list"); full effect on human-equivalent intelligences such as most aliens, intelligent robots and other AIs, ghosts, demons, and so forth; but no effect on "truly alien" minds such as Cthulhu or non-AI machines unless each type of such mind is purchased as a separate class or a power tricks skill roll is made for each application of the mental power (no power tricks skill = no chance at all).

 

Just my take on this.

John H

[G.W.Lerose]

Re: Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

 

I've actually foound this to be an interesting dissusion due to the num of mentalists/mystics in my current campaign. I've had players raise some simulair points. Something no one has yet mentioned is that the Fred offers an optional ruling (which I use) about affecting classes outside of ones base, but suffering a -3 to EDCV and -10 to the effect roll. This allows Scanner style stunts(in those movies the class of minds was human, but they could effect machines with some difficulty). In my campaign only effecting humans would be a limitation(and not an uncommon one at that). That having been said I tweak the CoM as well. Frankly I didn't get Alien. Sure Clark Kent isn't a homo sapien, but his mind is close enough. I changed the human class to humanoid(which groups all basically human type creatures), added a mineral class(for non-organics) and turned Alien into a modifer instead of a class. In this system one takes a penalty when using the mental power on a different class, and a penalty(that stacks) when using on a mind with the alien modifer. As for ultility purposes, I assume everything has a mind/spirit. i.e. With the right power one can talk to anything, cars, rocks, flowers, etc. Command is less usefull sometimes, but I am fairly liberal with interpritations of comands given to non-moble minds.