blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

[runescience]

I am running a fantasy game with the suggested heroic level caps. 150 pt chars, 30-40 active point attacks etc... Few questions to follow

 

He has a bastard sword. 1 1/2 d6 killing

+4dc for martial arts offensive stike

+3dc for deadly blow

+1dc for 5pts of str over the weapons str min...

that comes to 4d6 +1 killing hand to hand.

 

How do I resolve this? that pushes the active points to over 60.

 

Also when building the character with hero designer 2, how do ? force the hero designer to reflect the additional str damage in the bastard sword?

 

how do I use designer so that the offensive strike is only usuable with the sword?

 

Joel

[Zed-F]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Well, for starters, if you are using caps, you don't allow such a character. The suggested DC range for 75+75 games is 3-8. I would either disallow all martial arts maneuvers that can be used with the sword, or I would disallow deadly blow. Remember as well that martial arts extra DCs add at half rate for killing attacks so offensive strike only adds 2DCs for a sword.

 

HD2 should automatically figure bonus damage from STR if you set a specific number in the STR minimum limitation (i.e. 12 for a FREd-standard bastard sword) rather than using the default 6-14 range.

 

It's not really possible to have martial arts such that some maneuvers can only be used with some weapons and some with others without buying two seperate martial arts styles. If you enforce the minimum 10 CP per style rule, that will probably take more CP than you are willing to spend, assuming this is for a PC.

[Talon]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Yeah, I would simply disallow that character. IMO, Deadly Blow should be used either for lower DC weapons (making a dagger wielder feasible in a game where everyone has armor, for example) or odd circumstances (like a demon-hunter). Adding it to a high DC weapon, especially when you also have martial arts, is a recipe for disaster.

 

In my /low-fantasy/ games, Deadly Blow and weapons martial arts are not allowed for exactly this reason -- but I also disallow stuff like Combat Luck, and armor levels are generally low.

[arcady]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

You can get a weapons prefab here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20489&highlight=FHweapons2.hdp

 

That has all the weapons from Fantasy Hero and they should work by the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Simple answer: Ask the players if they think this is an apropriate construct, and if they would be OK with you throwing opponents like that at them. Do this without identifying the person whose submitted it, poreferably disguised as a means of feeling out the desired campaign lethality.

 

Peer pressure is a wonderful thing.

 

Once we all agree on acceptable DC's, life can move on.

[arcady]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Players don't tend to see things in the same overall picture that a GM does. A lot of them will just think "kewl! I can have that!" and not see, even if it is pointed out to them, how it will ruin the larger game.

[runescience]

Restarting FH after 10+ years Re: blowing out damage

 

Hi gang. I finally found a group that was tired of d20(modern, and 3.5) and was willing to humor me on my decade old facination with Hero games.

 

I ran FH1 for about 3 years. from late 80's to early 90's. I really enjoyed it. There was a theif, a ranger, a mage and martial artist. We started with fairly low characters (90 pts) and over the years we built them up to 200+pts. FH was simpler. Those were glorious days Now I have FH for 5th edition. I waivered around going back to 4th edition, but then I saw some of the neat talents in 5th edition. I commited to 5th edition.

 

Recently I started a dnd edition 3.5 game, in a home brew world. After the characters were made, they approved my transition to FH. Boy was I happy. I felt like I've finally found my way back home. The setting I chose was my Iron Swords world, which i tried running back in '98 as a pbem. I had the honor of Robert Bose as a pbem player. Unfortunately Got busy and crashed it.. You know how that goes. By the way thanks to Robert for his turn submissions, I really enjoyed them very much.

 

Im my new game I have a mage, a pitfighter (that guy with deadly blow), a dragonnewt(very LOOSE adaptation from runequest), and a thief.

 

Here is a link to my old messy web page. On the lower left you will see a link entitled: Ironswords(ISE)Campaign at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/strytelr6/IronSwordsFrameTest.html

and ignore the references to Gurps. I had no gurps character submissions.

 

Specials, gimmes and handouts

=========================

 

I chose the heroic 150 character limit. It was close but didnt quite stick. The characters ended up costing more than I planned. I just made them as close as I could. The pit fighter 'Roi'

 

Mage player: This player wanted to run an ice mage. I told him he could pay me 40pts for a 25 point VPP (loosely calculated). I told him the active points for each spell could be around 40 pts. I handed him the old FH companion I and II and told him to go through those spells for a list of 15 spells, and from those he could use 25 points of spells per day. He could use a magic roll to switch around the spells if he wanted.

 

Dragonnewt player: The dragonnewt character I gave a freebie to: a medalion that would let him keep up the illusion of being human. Except when he gets into combat, then his illusion would shut down and his enemy would see him for his true form. His character would be a spiritual leader when he was not knocking the stuffing out of them baddies It also gave me a chance to give healing spells to the crew.

 

Thief player: This guy wanted to play a theif martial artist. I don't know why but I have always favored players that want to play martial artists... its a quirk.

 

Hands down best fighter around: This player wanted to be play a character like the masked gladiator from the simon green death stalker books. Nice touch. I gave him combat luck, deadly blow. He asked for some other abilities. His character is a work in progress.

 

I run a lot of mystery, detective work, and action in my games. I try to make magic as mysterious and scarey as possible. My magic as I try to remember it from 12 years ago was not fire and forget magic. I did the VPP thing. I am a bit confused now, because I recently re-read the FH1 book and they say not to use VPP-magic pools. Here is a problem I'm discovering: speed is relatively low, and magic is not very powerful, so the players dont use enough magic to have a negative effect on their endurance. So if a person is throwing a 2d6k Fireball, he is only spending 6 end, or 18 end, if he does it 2 times in a turn. The player has a 6 REC and a 37 END. It seems he can hold out endlessly.

 

(This is opposed to champions where a character with 48 endurance can hit the wall power wise after throwing 4 double endurance power burts from a 12d6 EB.)

 

My first 2 sessions were basically getting the players aquainted with the vermin of the world: gianta beetle from FH1 book, lower level humans( 0-25 point critters), and spell throwers: the antithesis of dnd wizards, Wizards of the word.

 

The players complained that the combat went to fast. In truth I agree. But I underpowered them so I wouldnt turn them off to playing. I so deeply dislike dnd because of the massive hit points and rediculous armor class scaling that I thought I could put something more realistic infront of them.

 

Could you suggest some stuff based on the info given?

 

Maybe some decent but not overwhelming enemies...its been many years.

 

Their first real adventure is coming up. They are going on a 20 mile trip to fix a problem with undead they are having. On the way their, the will be hit by maruading Orcs, who are usually peaceful. And then get to the town were the archers are lining the towers, and the mercs are ready to spill blood.

This is the 3rd episode in a 4 episode mini-arc.

 

Characters are attached as a zip. They are works in progress.

 

Thanks in advance.

[DRThrush]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

(/snip)

He has a bastard sword. 1 1/2 d6 killing

+4dc for martial arts offensive stike

+3dc for deadly blow

+1dc for 5pts of str over the weapons str min...

that comes to 4d6 +1 killing hand to hand.

(/snip)

 

Joel

 

As a side note,

 

The most damage that a weapon can do is double it's base DC. The bastard sword can only to up 3d6... any more than that just might break it.

 

Dave

[arcady]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Runescience:

 

Endurance and magic wise I did this:

(details here, along with the full system.)

 

Spell Design:

All spells must have the following limitations:

• Gestures and / or Incantations
  
• Side Effect - detailed below
  
• Costs Endurance - only require 'at casting time', though many also have it to maintain. Spells which normally cost endurance may not reduce it to cast, but may to maintain.
  
• Requires a Skill Roll - the -1 per 10 active points version. The more severe version may be chosen but is not mandatory.

The Side Effects:

When a spell's control roll fails the spell fails to be cast and the Side Effect kicks in as follows:

 

• failure: lose 1d6 END per 10 points in spell (1/2 active points EB)
  
• fumble: (failed by 5-9, or rolled 18) take 1/2 active points as normal damage Energy Blast.
  
• massive fumble: (failed by 10 or more) 1/2 active points as a killing attack.

 

The failed by 10+ would only happen if your adjusted Control Skill was 8- or worse, as an 18 only triggers the critical failure. A Wild Mages would have all the above with the explosion advantage - hurting them and bursting out of them as well (so an extreme side effect (-1) rather than major as per the trained mages (-1/2)).

 

Forcing a Spell:

If a spell fails a mage can choose to force it anyway. This must be declared -before- the Side Effect is rolled. Forcing a spell causes it to be cast despite the failed spell roll but doubles the side effect. For a Wild Mage, the doubling explodes out of them as well - but cannot harm any mage directly opposing them or that mages direct and clear subordinates.

 

Pushing Magic:

Is done as if the mage was a super hero, rather than at Heroic power level. A mage can push beyond 10 points to as much as doubling their VPP, with each point of the pool being considered one point of pushing. Pushing beyond 10 however causes the extra cost of pushing to come not from END but be split evenly between BODY and STUN.

[Lupus]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

As a side note,

 

The most damage that a weapon can do is double it's base DC. The bastard sword can only to up 3d6... any more than that just might break it.

 

Dave

Deadly Blow boosts this - it counts as base damage. So the sword's really doing 2 1/2 d6. Thus, it can easily be ramped up to 4d6+1.

 

I'm not going to comment further, 'cause my opinions are already on the record concerning this topic.

[philnicau]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

I am running a fantasy game with the suggested heroic level caps. 150 pt chars, 30-40 active point attacks etc... Few questions to follow

 

He has a bastard sword. 1 1/2 d6 killing

+4dc for martial arts offensive stike

+3dc for deadly blow

+1dc for 5pts of str over the weapons str min...

that comes to 4d6 +1 killing hand to hand.

 

How do I resolve this? that pushes the active points to over 60.

 

Also when building the character with hero designer 2, how do ? force the hero designer to reflect the additional str damage in the bastard sword?

 

how do I use designer so that the offensive strike is only usuable with the sword?

 

Joel

 

Create a house rule "you can only add DCs to an attack with one maneuver" therefore you could either use Deadly Blow or Offensive Strike, not both.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Basic rule of HERO:

 

If you can do it, they can do it. If a PC creates an 'abusive' power construct, then there's absolutely no reason why the NPCs can't do it as well.

 

Additionally, keep in mind, it is the GM's job to create a challenge for the characters. As the PCs gain experience and general studliness, so should the opposition. You simply take his ability to generate this kind of nauseating damage into account, say, by having characters dodge or block (especially block), or disarm.

 

By the by, since I don't have FH5 ... is the Deadly Blow just ... a straight +3DCs, or are there requirements to use it (time, Endurance, skill roll?)?

[arcady]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Deadly blow is a copy of DnD's sneak attack.

 

And the circumstances needed to use it are kind of similar, only it is more flexible.

 

You get +1d6 to a skilling attack, and must define circumstances under which it can be used. The highest cost version of it lets you add that damage to any hand to hand attack weapon or ranged weapon under any circumstance.

 

It counts as base damage, so there is no limit to how much of it you can get...

 

The Talent is listed with an exclaimation point, but that's not all that much of a warning.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

If you can do it, they can do it. If a PC creates an 'abusive' power construct, then there's absolutely no reason why the NPCs can't do it as well.

 

Additionally, keep in mind, it is the GM's job to create a challenge for the characters. As the PCs gain experience and general studliness, so should the opposition. You simply take his ability to generate this kind of nauseating damage into account, say, by having characters dodge or block (especially block), or disarm.

 

Hmmm...or a wizard in the backgroud with a spell that provides a 10 PD force field that lasts for days, usable on others, but only works against swords...

 

Hey, I talk to the players first. If they insist on being unreasonable, well, I can also be unreasonable. And I don't have point caps.

[runescience]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

 

Hey, I talk to the players first. If they insist on being unreasonable, well, I can also be unreasonable. And I don't have point caps.

 

What do you do to keep the encounters from becoming weapons damage races?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Hmmm...or a wizard in the backgroud with a spell that provides a 10 PD force field that lasts for days' date=' usable on others, but only works against swords...[/quote']

 

Make it a magnetic effect that repels all metal ... seems slightly less contrived.

 

And the best way to stop a game from becoming an arms race is to put in opposition that can't be fought conventionally. Either the entire encounter is a RP situation requiring Conversation and the like, or my personal favorite, the Achilles Heel monster which is impervious to weaponry, but has an exploitable weakness ... if you can find it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

What do you do to keep the encounters from becoming weapons damage races?

 

Very little, in practice. My players are reasonable, and the only "unreasonable" example I can recall was a Champs game some time ago whose player has long since left us.

 

In his case, he was focused on defense (high DCV + high defenses, both near campaign top end). Solutions? Damage shields (this was 4th Ed so cost was OK, and he was a HTH combatant); add a full-end (or extra END) 1 hex area power; mentalists. A disporportionate number of characters ended up with such powers, bringing the unreasonable defense character back into being competetive with the rest of the group (rather than consistently being the "last man standing").

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Make it a magnetic effect that repels all metal ... seems slightly less contrived.

 

Actually, I was initially thinking of a guardian creature from an old Elric story. Invulnerable to damage from swords. Stormbringer couldn't hurt it. Another weapon? Dead beast.

 

I like the magnetic repulsuion idea as well - although magnetism seems a bit scientific for a magic "feel", that's a matter of taste and the feel of magic in a given campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

Actually, the "velvet glove" solution can also be to reverse the approach. Don't give the Damage Machine a biug tough target to fight. Send in a large number of small targets.

 

"Big Bart, your 15 BOD hit carves a tiny goblin in half. Little Lita, your 4 BOD hit fells the tiny goblin. It's bleeding to death."

 

Have the targets react appropriately, where their tactical sense allows it. Perhaps they pull back out of melee range, given the huge damage the bastard sword character dishes out. Perhaps they flee to attack from ambush later (with a net - suddenly, that bastard sword's not so useful). If they still remainin melee, they probably focus their efforts on the biggest threat, so Big Bart takes more damage than his peers simply because opposition focuses on him.

 

Of course, an equally valid approach is just to say "no, I'm not allowing damage that high" or "damage so much higher than the group norm."

[Old Man]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

 

I like the magnetic repulsuion idea as well - although magnetism seems a bit scientific for a magic "feel", that's a matter of taste and the feel of magic in a given campaign.

 

Then say the magic is impervious to forged weapons. Weapons of nature - staves, batons, clubs, rocks, etc. can pass through.

[UltraRob]

Re: blowing out damage... oy! some minor designer q's

 

I advise just talking to the player and saying "look, you're too powerful and if I put in stuff to challenge you it will be hard for the rest of the group, let's tone that attack down a little to a more reasonable level. Otherwise the first time you get unlucky the group will have a foe they might not be able to handle and you'll be out on the floor. How about we get rid of this Deadly Blow and replace it with something more reasonable, like extra Damage Classes which cost END to use to represent you exerting yourself?"

 

Rob

 

P.S. Arms races are a waste of GMs time, especially since ultimately he will win, and only the other members of the group will suffer since the GM focuses so much time on the "offending" player. Better to just scale him back now, despite the protests (if any) and just happily go on with your gaming lives.