Defense levels

[Harry Canyon]

Hi all!

 

I'm starting up a Champions game. I've given the players the Standard points allotment and the range of defenses as 15-25 with 30 as a max. I've run into a situation where ALL the characters have resistant defenses! One has Armor, three have force fields. (They're just coming off 3rd edition so that might be some of the issue... ) FWIW: Only one of these playes has ever played Champions/Hero systems and he had a really bad experience...

 

I ask, because the current incarnation of Champions seems to keep defenses relatively low, such that almost any character takes some effect from a "standard attack". Perhaps in a future game, creating a list of powers which only one character in the group may have, would be a way to keep them different...

 

Regardless, I'm curious:

 

1) What level of defensive powers do folks have/allow in their game?

2) Assuming you felt it was warranted, how have you appealed to their sense of fair play?

3) Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill?

 

Thanks!

 

Take care,

 

Harry

[Monolith]

Re: Defense levels

 

Originally posted by Harry Canyon

1) What level of defensive powers do folks have/allow in their game?

My current campaign has been using the guidelines in FREd so that we can test them out. My current game runs from 12-28 DEF, averaging right around 20 (as specified in FREd).

 

2) Assuming you felt it was warranted, how have you appealed to their sense of fair play?

If a player is not willing to work within the specified guidelines it is nearly impossible to appeal to their sense of fair play. The best thing you can do as a GM is just state your game limits and then enforce them. As long as you are fair across the board the player will eventually forgive you.

 

3) Am I making a mountain out of a mole-hill?

To some extent yes. It really does not matter how many players have resistant defenses in the game if killing weapons are seldom used. Now if the concept of your game is street-level mercenaries (Batman/Daredevil types) then I would worry about the inbalance all that resistant defense has. On the other hand, if your game is basically four-color then the resistant defenses shouldn't really make that much of a difference, as killing characters is not the purpose of the game.

[Harry Canyon]

Re: Re: Defense levels

 

Originally posted by Monolith

My current campaign has been using the guidelines in FREd so that we can test them out. My current game runs from 12-28 DEF, averaging right around 20 (as specified in FREd).

My guidelines are only a little above that... I'll have to see what the average is...

 

 

If a player is not willing to work within the specified guidelines it is nearly impossible to appeal to their sense of fair play. The best thing you can do as a GM is just state your game limits and then enforce them. As long as you are fair across the board the player will eventually forgive you.

Good point.

I've enforced the guidleines (and no one has tried to exceed them), so this question probably was necessary. D'Oh!

 

To some extent yes. It really does not matter how many players have resistant defenses in the game if killing weapons are seldom used. Now if the concept of your game is street-level mercenaries (Batman/Daredevil types) then I would worry about the inbalance all that resistant defense has. On the other hand, if your game is basically four-color then the resistant defenses shouldn't really make that much of a difference, as killing characters is not the purpose of the game.

That's a very good point. I do intend a four-color approach, so thanks for easin' my mind!

 

Take care,

 

Harry

[Bartman]

As a player, I would never again make a character without at least 5pts rDef. Each of the characters (under 2 different GMs) I have made without rDef died. Playing in a universe where some people use real world weapons without some rDef is just a good way to ensure that someone is going to get lucky and wax your character. Unless you are playing Dark Champions or really want the average street thug to be able to kill your characters let them have defenses. When you want them to really feel an attack, give your villians Find Weakness and/or AP or penetrating KAs.

[zornwil]

It just dependson what kind of game you want to run. If you really want lower defenses (ie, more likelihood for stun and such), then discuss it with your players and ratchet down the numbers or do some limit like "15-25 defense but resistance counts DOUBLE", and that should make them think. Now of course be very sure that your villians are built in some vaguely similar or at least non-exploitive fashion.

 

Appealing to fair play just depends on the maturity of the people. If they're not too mature (or you have 1 or 2 that ruin it for others) jsut make a hard ruling and apply it consistently. Also, incent "fair play" by making sure that those who play fair don't get burnt for it.

 

Finally, yeah, it kind of seems like a mountain out of a molehill as resistant defenses are pretty ordinary for real super-type heroes in my experience. But it's your game.

[Trebuchet]

In my campaign several characters have low levels of rPD (including my own with 8 rPD). To allow that to not be overly lethal, few opponents in my campaign have killing attacks except normals. Supervillains with Killing Attacks seldom target them at the heroes. (I run a 4-color campaign, but this applies to other types to some degree.) I'll give a 3 SPD, 4 OCV soldier or agent a 2d6 RKA, but his odds of actually hitting someone with a 9+ DCV are rather poor. The more solidly defended characters have lower DCVs, but their defenses can handle such a small attack.

 

I would sit down with the players and explain that you are not looking to screw them, but to challenge them. If no normal can ever be a threat, then they won't run into normals. They'll miss a lot of fun if they don't get to stomp agents, ninjas, and the occasional bank robber.

 

As long as the players understand that the comic is titled after their characters, they should be more agreeable to low rPD.

[Victim]

One thing to think about is that characters without lots of STR are probably going to have mostly resistant defenses. A brick will have lots of PD from figured stats and will probably buy some extra PD/rPd or a bit of armor. On the other hand, if a character uses power armor or a force field, then they might only have a few points of non resistant defense, since they'll be getting rPD on their basic defense defense power.

[TheEmerged]

From here. Note that the specific examples refer to a 60-active maximum; this page was made before I decided PC's had a 75 active cap.

 

Defenses (Superheroic)

· Normal Defenses (PD, ED): As a general rule, the maximum allowed defensive score will be figured as follows.

 

o Minimum. Build an Energy Blast with a +1 advantage that equals the active point cap. Take the number of dice that result, multiply that by 2, and you’ve got the minimum defensive score a PC should have without a Darn Good Reason™. For example, if the active point cap is 60 active points, the results is a 6d6 EB. That results in an expected minimum of 12 pips in normal defenses.

 

o Maximum. Build an Energy Blast without advantages that equals the active point cap. Take the number of dice that result, multiply it by 3, and you’ve got the maximum defensive score a PC should have without a Darn Good Reason™. For example, with a 60 active point cap you will have a 12d6 EB; this results in a maximum of 36 pips of normal defenses.

 

o Average/Norm. Build an Energy Blast with a +1/2 advantage that equals the active point cap. Take the number of dice that result, multiply it by 2.5, and you’ve got the expected “normal†defensive value PC’s should design their characters around. For example, with a 60 active point cap you will have an 8d6 EB. PC’s could then consider 20 pips of normal defense the average defensive score when planning his/her character.

 

· Unusual Defenses (Flash, Power)

 

o Rule Of Thumb: Take the minimum, maximum, and average scores for normal defenses, cut them in half, and you’ve got the baseline for Unusual Defenses.

 

§ For example, take the 60 active point cap scores above. This results in a minimum of 6, a normal of 10, and a maximum of 18 for Power and Flash defenses. The minimum can probably be lowered to 5, the normal is fine, and the maximum can probably be raised to 20 for Mental and Power Defense.

 

o Flash Defense: Because in general only the BODY result matters for Flash Defense, you might think it needs to be figured independently. Surprisingly, however, I have found that the numbers are generally in the same ballpark you arrive at with this system.

 

o A note about minimums for Power & Flash Defense: this isn’t to say every character should be expected to pick up five points of each (not that it’d be a bad idea). Rather, when designing powers players should assume that anybody bothering to purchase them has at least those scores.

 

· Mental Defense

 

o MD is a bit of an odd bird, since damage-dealing powers against it tend to be expensive but there are some normal-priced and dangerous powers that operate against it too.

 

o Reminder about Mental Defense: as an attribute, characters should assume anything that can be affected by mental powers has at least some MD.

 

o Generally the “Unusual†expected minimum is workable for MD, but the “Normal†expected maximum is more appropriate. The “Nomal†is harder to figure, use an average of the minimum & maximum (21 with a 60-active cap).

 

· Hardening

 

o By default, in cases where the attacking power has both Penetrating and Armor Piercing, the first level of Hardened cancels out Armor Piercing first. Exceptions will be considered.

 

o There is no such thing as a separate “Blocks Teleportation†advantage for defenses: use the Hardened advantage. Teleportation can be bought with Penetrating in stacks to bypass levels of Hardened.

 

o In general, two levels of Hardened should be viewed as sufficient. Any power built with more than two levels of Hardened will be scrutinized closely.

 

· Damage Reduction

 

o As per its description (FREd page 95), Mental Damage Reduction must be bought at the Resistant cost. A better way to put that is this: you cannot buy Non-resistant Damage Reduction for Mental Defense

 

o However, you may purchase Non-resistant Damage Reduction for Flash and Power Defenses if for some reason you want to do that.

 

o PENETRATING: the description (FREd page 95) specifically states that Damage Reduction does not affect the minimum damage caused by an attack with the Penetrating advantage. However, I am allowing Damage Reduction to be bought Hardened to counteract that.

 

o With regards to Susceptibility – damage taken due to susceptibility can never be mitigated by Damage Reduction.

[BarryB]

One problem that can occur in some campaigns is players reacting to the last combat. "Oh, I really wished that I had Flash Defense in the last battle. I'll use the 10 points I've saved up to buy that."

 

You can ask for rationales for buying the Flash Defense, but any reasonably intelligent player can come up with one. Rationalizing is one of the things at which we human beings are very good.

 

Most of us have resistant defense of one sort or another because many of us enjoy having bullets bouncing off our chests. Others enjoy simply not being there when the shots are fired.

[Tom McCarthy]

So long as the defences still are no more than about 2 or 2.5 times the damage classes of the average attack, your games should still run just fine. Higher than that, and combat tactics will rapidly shift to attacks that generate extra damage (such as move through, haymaker, terminal velocity falls, armour piercing and find weakness, etc.)

 

If defences are less than 1.5 to 2 times average DCs, the focus instead becomes on acting first, hitting first, and not being hit (lightning reflexes, DCV levels, desolidification, cover, dodging and blocking, missile deflection, etc.).

[Arthur]

Originally posted by BarryB

One problem that can occur in some campaigns is players reacting to the last combat. "Oh, I really wished that I had Flash Defense in the last battle. I'll use the 10 points I've saved up to buy that."

 

Why is that a problem? That's the definition of intelligence - adapting to your environment. It's funny you should mention this example, because I did exactly that the last time I played Champs. I was playing the team brick and the foe had neutralized my character with a Flash (very intelligent on the GM's part, BTW). Therefore, I spent my XP on Flash Defense. However, I did not decide that my character suddenly had the power; instead he went to the Patron and checked out a set of polarized sunglasses (OIF on a strap).

 

As long as it can be justified, that's exactly what XP are for.

[BarryB]

Originally posted by Arthur

Why is that a problem? That's the definition of intelligence - adapting to your environment.

 

I agree. Adaptation is a good thing. After all, GMs encourage players to use teamwork by trashing the group and hoping that they learn from the experience. I did not mean to imply that characters should be static.

As long as it can be justified, that's exactly what XP are for.

 

That was the crux of my comment. There are good justifications, bad justifications, and no justifications at all.

 

I encourage my players to try to stay true to their character concepts as they spend XP. Sometimes the player tries to stretch the character concept like silly putty to allow for any and every power that he or she can think might be somehow useful.

 

It is possible to justify practically any power. However, acquire too many and pretty soon you've lost the original character concept. But I am aware that it's a gray area.

 

An energy blaster get hit with a 1d6K bullet and so starts wearing a kevlar costume. Sounds good. She gets hit with a 3d6K laser beam and decides on heavy armor. She gets pummelled by Grond and decides she needs something in the armor to pump up STN and DEF and STR. Now she's Iron Woman. Has she lost the original character conception? I tend to think she has, but it is an arguable point.

 

It's a slippery slope that tempts the unwary.

[Blue]

I actually allow higher defenses in my game than you guys do (from what I'm seeing here). But I counter it by not starting them out with as many points, so while they could pump their defenses, it's often cost prohibitive, at least if they want a decent offense. The end result is that everyone tends to slide toward the middle. From what I'm seeing so far, it's worked out well.

[Supreme]

What's the problem with having all the characters having resistant defenses? Heck, I practically require all of my PCs to have resistant defenses. I don't literally require them. I just point out that in my game the average thug is armed with 2-3D6 RKA (either a handgun or a shotgun). Be warned. The last time I played a character with no resistant defenses was in a game back in 1987. He was a Spider-Man clone named, "The Arachnid". So when the thugs point their shotguns at me I laugh. "Haha! I've got a 35 DEX, you stupid bastards will never hit me." One of the stupid bastards rolled a 4. That was that.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Harry,

 

In my new campaign the defenses of the PC range from 4 to 28. That's right...4. The reason is other stuff...for example...

 

The 4 def PC has 75% Physical and Energy Damage Reduction Resistant. He is also a Mystique type IPE Ego Attacker. He does not need high defenses as he is often not directly attacked.

 

The 24 def PC is the Martial Artist and often has high DCV.

 

The 25 def PC has an absorption that feeds back into his defenses. He also has lots of raw stun. The name of this PC is Survivor so you can imagine defenses are important...

 

The 28 def PC has a fairly low speed so the higher def are not so big of an issue. This PC is a sort of gadgeteer...

 

EVERY PC has resistent defenses.

 

Hope this helps...

John T>