Pro Wrestling Hero Mechanics

[SleepyDrug]

This is a spin-off from the Submission Holds thread.

 

On the matter of "tapping out" or forcing another fighter to give due to pain. I favor some sort of EGO roll with a penalty for the damage inflicted.

 

I love designing stuff for HERO and watch WWE so a couple of times i've fooled around with writing up wrestlers. I've encountered the following problems.

 

1) Lifting difficulties and normal human strength levels. For example, Cruiserweight guy with a 14 strength should not, in a PW setting, be able to lift the Giant. Even though the Giant is within his pushed STR at 500 lbs.

 

My Idea: have a weight stat (bought as a talent) and disallow pushed strength for lifting/throwing another; use actual strength.

 

2) Hit locations. Example: a choke slam should damage the head/neck/shoulders area. This would give it a 3-9 hit location roll. But i don't want the arms in my choke slam hit location.

 

My Idea: no idea.

 

3) Designing moves. This is the easy part. although i'm still pondering between using passing strikes or some other move for top rope aerial stuff.

 

Thoughts?

[Rage]

Yeah some of that sounds cool specially the EGO roll. except i'd also add your EGO going down after each succesful attempt at not tapping out.

 

And as for your choke slam idea, it beats just having sfx of a martial throw and leaving it at that.

 

For the ariel moves: things like flying takle etc take care of that.

 

And for the wheight thing I think some wrestlers did lift the giant (not Andre, only Hulk did that and that ripped his torso up some what) who were not that large, I just think keeping the actual strength levels down (between 10-16 on the most part) and have a limit cap on how much a short guy can actually buy strength wise. That and for things with lifting include a dex or skill role. If its a real street fight getting someone into a rack or somthing is really hard as they shake around alot.

 

Just my opinion

[Crimson Arrow]

I think for pro-wrestling, you can keep the idea that submissions can knock someone out, even if in real life that wouldn't necessarily happen. For lesser amounts, just have an EGO roll, penalised as you suggest.

 

Don't forget that Pushing in heroic-level campaigns is more restricted in superhero games. You can't automatically do it (or am still thinking 4th Edition?).

 

Have you considered making size a disadvantage? Rather like how an elephant is huge. This has some good points, but also bad (like an inability to fit into cars). You could come up with campaign specific ones, such as crusiserweight (bonuses to dodging and high-flying, but easily lifted, thrown and not so good at power moves, even if they have the STR) and giant-sized (tall and/or fat), which makes them hard to lift, but reduces their ability to move quickly, climb turnbuckles and do acrobatic moves.

 

An alternative (or one you could use in conjunction) is to have specific NCM for different sizes. It depends how rigid you want it to be. By having NCM limits at different levels, players can still have agile big men and powerful small ones, it will just cost a bit extra. I am not sure I'd bother with this though, so long as the players understood what was involved in the genre.

 

Having the arms in a hit location for a choke slam could make sense. It reflects the victim landing in a way which minimises the damage, by "catching" himself. It might even be a botched landing, with the guy ending up with a broken arm. However, pro-wrestling is very theatrical; I am not sure I'd bother with hit locations at all. You can easily say that "so-and-so" move always targets a certain areas, eg a piledriver always does damage to the head/neck.

 

As to moves, it's easy to come up with lots. One way to reflect different moves is by applying the characters' combat skill levels in different combinations. For example some suplexes might be easier to apply (bonuses to OCV), whereas others might use the CSLs to add to damage. However, you still have just one or two basic suplexes (sacrifice throws or takedowns), instead of half a dozen.

[Koshka]

Not a wrestling expert, but as far as lifting goes I believe the liftee can help out -- position himself to give the lifter better leverage, for instance. (I have a friend who hates Big Show because he refuses to help anyone lift him.) How about allowing the liftee to "loan" his casual STR to the lifter, only to get the liftee into the air?

 

Example: The Cruiser (STR 13) has not only talked Lardman (STR 18, 500 pounds) into a match, but convinced him to let the Cruiser try to lift him. 500 pounds is roughly 227 kg if I'm doing the conversion correctly, and the Cruiser's normal lift is 150 kg. If Lardman plays along and helps with the lift, the Cruiser's effective STR for the lift only is 13+9=22, more than enough to lift Lardman. If Lardman is a jerk and decides not to cooperate, the only way Cruiser's getting him off the mat is to push his STR to 18.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Koshka

Cruiser's effective STR for the lift only is 13+9=22, more than enough to lift Lardman. If Lardman is a

 

Except that STR is not linear. Two 20 STR folks can lift as much as STR 25, not STR 40.

 

The correct formula to add STR is:

 

5 * LOG2(2^(S1/5) + 2^(S2/5))

 

LOG2 = Logarithm to the base 2

 

The ^ is for exponentiation.

 

S1 = STR 1

S2 = STR 2

[SleepyDrug]

1) Lifting big/heavy people

 

I was refering to the rule that a martial artist can lift for purposes of a throw, for example, anyone whose weight is within the limit they can lift with their pushed strength. They don't actually need to push to do this.

 

As a real world example, the Big Show (7'1" and 500 lbs) has been lifted (and held up) by Brock Lesner and Kane. That's it. Kurt Angle did pop Show onto his shoulders for an Angle Slam (he positions himself under the person's left arm, lifts him up over his head and then falls backward and slams the person into the mat).

 

2) hit locations. just going with it is possible. But to continue using the Choke Slam example, you pretty much have to screw it up for someone to land on an arm. The victim is lifted into the air by the throat and slammed, back first, into the mat. Arms are not used to block this.

 

3) Tapping Out. Another alternative is to have submission moves do no damage but to keep track for purposes of "tapping out". If Stun - SubmissionStun = 0 or less, the person taps out. Remember, people will pass out from neck submission moves such as a Tazzmission or Crossface; these could be normal NND Choke Holds.

 

4) New Topic: Signature and Finisher moves. These are trademark moves that always seem to be more damaging when the wrestler does them. Example, a Power Bomb. Basic power move performed by many people. The Undertaker's Last Ride is a modified Power Bomb and is far more damaging then other power bombs.

 

My Idea: don't forget hit locations. also, damage classes or csl's with that move so it really is more powerful.

 

5) Pins. There isn't really anything in the current rules (i'm looking at the 4th ed UMA list) that simulates pins well. A basic pin is just covering the person with no strength bonus. But cradle pins such as a small package or school boy, or hooking a leg should give a bonus.

 

My idea: just make some new moves based on the grab rules.

[Rage]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

1) Lifting big/heavy people

 

I was refering to the rule that a martial artist can lift for purposes of a throw, for example, anyone whose weight is within the limit they can lift with their pushed strength. They don't actually need to push to do this.

 

As a real world example, the Big Show (7'1" and 500 lbs) has been lifted (and held up) by Brock Lesner and Kane. That's it. Kurt Angle did pop Show onto his shoulders for an Angle Slam (he positions himself under the person's left arm, lifts him up over his head and then falls backward and slams the person into the mat).

 

2) hit locations. just going with it is possible. But to continue using the Choke Slam example, you pretty much have to screw it up for someone to land on an arm. The victim is lifted into the air by the throat and slammed, back first, into the mat. Arms are not used to block this.

 

3) Tapping Out. Another alternative is to have submission moves do no damage but to keep track for purposes of "tapping out". If Stun - SubmissionStun = 0 or less, the person taps out. Remember, people will pass out from neck submission moves such as a Tazzmission or Crossface; these could be normal NND Choke Holds.

 

4) New Topic: Signature and Finisher moves. These are trademark moves that always seem to be more damaging when the wrestler does them. Example, a Power Bomb. Basic power move performed by many people. The Undertaker's Last Ride is a modified Power Bomb and is far more damaging then other power bombs.

 

My Idea: don't forget hit locations. also, damage classes or csl's with that move so it really is more powerful.

 

5) Pins. There isn't really anything in the current rules (i'm looking at the 4th ed UMA list) that simulates pins well. A basic pin is just covering the person with no strength bonus. But cradle pins such as a small package or school boy, or hooking a leg should give a bonus.

 

My idea: just make some new moves based on the grab rules.

 

What about pins as modified entangles? break the entangle break the pin. then for how effective your pin is you just pay for the extra level. Some pins would probably have hth damage as well (stun only) because you can't breath in them (torso crushing chest.) and are very hard to get out of. (the most effective pin I've had is myfeet near my head with the other guys weight entirly pushing my legs down further. there was very little I could do (he was larger than me so I couldn't just turn) and I didn't have the support to kick out- all the while I can't breath.

 

Now as for signiture/ finishing moves

just an extra couple of hth classes for that specific move. NOTE: not csl's, they should be dealt out only for technical mastery of the game.

And I would only allow CSL's for specific manouvers or atleast discourage full Hth CSL's

Just like the video games I would divide the different manouvers into: arial, grappling, ground etc

 

or have the csl's in different catergories like rough neck, fast, technical, powerful etc.

 

 

more later

working on peice of music

[Koshka]

Originally posted by Koshka

500 pounds is roughly 227 kg if I'm doing the conversion correctly,

 

Unfortunately I screwed it up -- it's one pound equals 2.2 kilos, so Lardman is (500 x 2.2) 1100 kilograms. That falls between a 25 and 28 STR on the chart, so even if Lardman is helping Cruiser is going to have to push to stand a chance.

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by Koshka

Unfortunately I screwed it up -- it's one pound equals 2.2 kilos, so Lardman is (500 x 2.2) 1100 kilograms. That falls between a 25 and 28 STR on the chart, so even if Lardman is helping Cruiser is going to have to push to stand a chance.

 

Actually, you had it right the first time. 1 kg = 2.2 lbs. Thus lardman's 500 pound bulks converts to a "trim" 227.3 kg. Still between STR 15 and 18 on the chart, but nowhere near the 25-28 listed above.

 

Mathmatically,

Steve

[Koshka]

OK, no more posting until I get a minimum level of caffeine in my system . At least I had the proportions right, even if I got the direction swapped.

 

BTW, how would people adjust lifting STR for things like suplexes? Between them, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit have probably suplexed most of the WWE roster, including a lot of people bigger and heavier than they are. They've clearly got good STR scores, but in some cases they're lifting people for a suplex who weigh more than they "should" be able to lift by Hero rules.

[SuperPheemy]

Pins are simple, either stun an opponent, knock him unconscious or use a Grab maneuver, and keep him immobilized (I'd say keeping an opponent stunned or immobilized until the referee's next phase is reasonable for a pin).

 

As for lifting big wrestlers, there are two additional factors to consider. One is that if the big man is being lifted high, he often helps the lifter by hopping, or jumping, thus helping the lifter get the height and clearance to sell the move. A second is that we're discussing heroic level atheletes. Even the weakest wrestler in the ring (like a Spike Dudley) is going to have a solid 13 strength, while the strongest guys out there (say Lesnar, or Goldberg) will show a 20 or maybe 21.

 

We also would want to concentrate on the "in character" damage in the ring. That would be accomplished by the application of powers. Thus, a standard punch remains a standard punch, but the Stone Cold Stunner might be a 6D6 Physical HTH attack.

 

I'd not use the Hit Location Charts in this instance, just because a verbal description is more dramatic than a random damage location. In game, it's more in character to Irish Whip your opponent in the ropes, and follow up with a Clothesline, than to risk rolling a 14 on your hit location and clothesline the thighs, or take a CV penalty to aim for the head. You want to keep the action fast and simple to better simulate the excitement of the ring.

 

I cannot stress enough the need for Presence Attacks. Pulling a good Presence attack could very easily make your opponent hesitate a phase, thus giving you the opportunity to Haymaker them, or set up that "Extra Time" Finisher.

 

Just a few thoughts on a lazy Friday.

[SleepyDrug]

I still prefer avoiding the use of powers if possible. I think most moves are best represented as martial arts maneuvers with possible damage classes. For many moves, this is a necessity (submission moves).

 

Back to the strength issue. Lifting moves come in two types, moves that the wrestler needs to lift the victim and immediately drop him (suplexes, power slams) and moves the wrestler lifts and holds the victim before dropping him (military press, F-5, Power Bomb).

 

what if each move had a str min, like weapons do. A suplex requires much less strength then an F-5. Goldberg once held the Big Show up for the Jackhammer with one hand.

 

I do like the idea of dropping Hit Locations and just assigning SFX and appropriate damage.

 

Also, while in real life the moves are often pulled. For a game, i'd want to write it up as "in character" so to speak.

[CrosshairCollie]

Wrestling ...

 

A lot of it depends on whether or not you're going to make your wrestlers pretend to be fighting, like the real WWE, or actually have them pummelling each other for real. If it's just pretend, well, really, just make some Acting rolls and PS: Wrestler and maybe Oratory and you're done.

 

If it's intended to be actual combat, then I figure ...

 

Pin: It's a Grab on a prone opponent (you also become prone). If they're unconscious, you don't have to really worry about the hold being broken unless they wake up in mid-count.

 

Submissions: I have seen submissions that purportedly knocked the opponent out (Sleepers, Million Dollar Dream), which would be NNDs, but most of them (Boston Crab) would likely just be the effects of applying Strength or a Crush-style maneuver after a Grab. You can submit to avoid suffering Body damage, if that much is being doled out.

 

'Wear Down': Back in the day, wrestlers actually, y'know, wrestled rather than punching and kicking. Classic Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect kinda stuff. One of the things I did with a 'technical wrestler' character was having a Strength Drain that only applied to one limb, had to be targetted, etc, to represent wearing down that part of the body (an arm to prevent damage, a leg to reduce mobility, etc.).

 

Finishers: Bonus Damage Dice (however you feel like doing it ... Combat Levels to Damage or a limited Strength bonus) with performing one particular maneuver. For instance, I'd call the Rock Bottom a Sacrifice Throw (since Rock goes down at the same time). But there's lots of other visuals for Sac. Throw. So, take, say, +4d6 damage (+20 STR), only to Sacrifice Throw, then put a limitation on it like lots of END or some 'inaccurate' limit so it's not something you'd want to do all the time. For a submission finisher like a Figure-Four or Sharpshooter, put the limit on that you have to be grabbing the legs. That sorta thing.

 

Just my two cents. Just don't forget to give all the Referees 5 Ego, 5 Intelligence, and the 'Gullible' and 'Poor Vision' Disadvantages.

[SleepyDrug]

I'm looking at this from a stand point of wrestlers actually fighting.

 

And I've seen lots of great ideas on this thread so far.

 

New thought: taunting and crowds. This seems to juice wrestlers up and many "recover" faster when they have the crowd behind them or they do a taught.

 

I'm thinking an Aid with Gestures and/or uncontrolled. Ideas?

[Beetle]

Maybe "Hulking up" would be extra Strength, Con, Stun & End with the limitation of "Must have rabidly cheering crowd"? And gestures (wagging index finger in opponents face).

[JmOz]

Crowd Power: 1d6 Aid, +14 limit (20 total), Extra time (full phase), requires cheering fans (-1), effects 4 attributes at once (+1)

[Nolgroth]

Re: Pro Wrestling Hero Mechanics

 

Talk about thread necromancy.....

 

I did a search because I was curious about simulating big time wrasslin' in a game setting and I found this thread. I used to be a pretty fervent watcher of the WWF (back when Stone Cold, The Rock, Degeneration X, Kane and Undertaker were the big names) and I've watched it a few times recently (damn the Undertaker is looking old).

 

Anyway, since a Pin maneuver (in theory anyway) is holding somebody for a three count, I'd assume that is 3 Segments. My question is; if the Pin maneuver is actually applied (instead of scripted/acted), does the person being Pinned get one chance to break free of the hold before the count is up? That seems to make sense from a rules standpoint. What Segment would the Pin be broken on, the first, second or third? Could the Haymaker mechanic be applied to give extra strength just for the purposes of breaking out of the Pin?

 

Example: The Irish Giant and "Bonecrusher" Bronson (both Speed 3) are fighting it out for the Heavyweight Championship Title. One Segment 4, Bonecrusher uses a Lariat maneuver (strike with target falls element) to the Irish Giant down. Lucky for "Bonecrusher," the Irish Giant is Stunned. The Irish Giant then has to use his Segment/Phase 4 to Recover from Being Stunned giving "Bonecrusher" a chance to Pin him in Segment 8.

Now, in Segment 8, the Irish Giant can either try to kick out immediately, or muster his strength to kick out with more force in Segment 9. If I remember my DC's correctly, this would give the character a +20 STR to kick out of the Pin. You could compensate by having special Pin maneuvers (small package, etc) written out to give the person using the Pin maneuver a STR bonus as well.

 

Thoughts?

[zornwil]

Re: Pro Wrestling Hero Mechanics

 

Two words: Luchador Hero.

 

Seriously, if this topic is of interest, then reserve cash to get Luchador Hero when it comes out.

[pinecone]

Re: Pro Wrestling Hero Mechanics

 

This is a spin-off from the Submission Holds thread.

 

On the matter of "tapping out" or forcing another fighter to give due to pain. I favor some sort of EGO roll with a penalty for the damage inflicted.

 

I love designing stuff for HERO and watch WWE so a couple of times i've fooled around with writing up wrestlers. I've encountered the following problems.

 

1) Lifting difficulties and normal human strength levels. For example, Cruiserweight guy with a 14 strength should not, in a PW setting, be able to lift the Giant. Even though the Giant is within his pushed STR at 500 lbs.

 

My Idea: have a weight stat (bought as a talent) and disallow pushed strength for lifting/throwing another; use actual strength.

 

2) Hit locations. Example: a choke slam should damage the head/neck/shoulders area. This would give it a 3-9 hit location roll. But i don't want the arms in my choke slam hit location.

 

My Idea: no idea.

 

3) Designing moves. This is the easy part. although i'm still pondering between using passing strikes or some other move for top rope aerial stuff.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think I'd go with Pres attacks bolstered by the amount of damage done for submission holds..."Tap out! You are no match for my exelence!" and give bonus dice for violent action,foe in disadvantaged posision, positive rep (Nobody escapes the cross-face!) and see if that gets you close to the "feel"