The Wheel of Time

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

You are on the right trail but the Weaves need some more definition.

 

EXAMPLE: Healing is gradual effect over the duration of a day or so and has a side effect of prostigious hunger - if recipient goes more than 3 hours without a large meal they suffer 3d6 END drain (21 total END loss). This has a continuing duration of 1-5 days depending on the power of the Healing Weave.

And here is where we run into some issues with inconsistency. In some cases (Tam's and Mat's) we see it take time and they have to eat like pigs (well we assume so in Tam's case). In others, the wounds just seem to disappear and the characters feel immediately exhausted/hungry. So do you make up two different abilities for that?

 

Here is how I did Arms of Air

I have always liked the way you did that. Just don't want to violate too many rules by placing a Multipower into an already discounted VPP.

 

Interestingly, I only have a minor quibble about your Balefire. Hero System lists 8d6 Killing as an Absolute Effect - don't roll the dice, if it hits they are dead (I always try to stick with an established canon rule if possible). The second quibble is AP - what might they hit that is hardened? Overall, I would just change it to 8d6 and drop the AP which is unnecessary in WOT.

Again, I don't have all the rules memorized yet. If I'd have known that, I would have stuck to the canon rules. AP was added because they may hit an armored foe and it's specifically because it halves defenses, unless they are hardened. Now, with this 8d6k attack defined as an "instant kill, that seems less than necessary. Do you have a Book and Page reference?

 

The final thought is on the scope of Balefire and why doing things like a Transform doesn't work with it. Balefire should either be bought as Indirect or AE: Line since it totally destroys anything in its path (something that Transform cannot do). If you go with indirect then what you are saying is "Game effect wise it just burns a hole in anything out to its maximum range." But that really doesn't capture the effect we have seen in some of the books (disagree with this one particular scene or not) - Sammael and Rand sweep their Balefire archs across a field at each other leaning me towards AE: Line. As a game mechanic I prefer Indirect but similuationist wise it seems that line is more in line with the books.

Perhaps AOE Line and Continuous? That would burn a helluva lot of END. Almost would have to buy half-end just to be able to use it. Ouch.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Talents versus taught Weaves. How do you define the difference?

 

There are some really through folks on the net who have compiled lists of various things. Balefire is the only one really in question among those I listed as being able to be learned by anyone. Cadsuianne can't heal to save her butt even though she is as powerful as Moirane and Suiane - which would put her Lowest Affinity at about 60-90 points depending on how you want to define them. Obviously something needs to modify access to weaves beyond just the ability to learn them in special cases like Healing or Earth Delving.

 

I will see what I can do about finding my great big list of what can't be learned - meaning it is a talent of the One Power given to only a small subset of channelers.

 

PS - The more I think about basing this off "The Gift" the more I like it. I am even considering chaning how I do it in my home game. Kudos to you - I was just talking about how my own system is already fully realized and participation in your thread was something like a scavenger hunt for little gems. Never expected to feel the desire to convert my own system

 

There is an up side to that - when I finish building characters they will be grossly compatible with your system.

 

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Callandor did indeed block Balefire BUT that is the only thing to have done so - I would chalk that up to the item and not a shield since the white hot bar seperated upon meeting callandor.

I don't disagree with the sheer book interpretation. Mind you, Callandor and cuendillar are the only two substances in the novels that seem to resist Balefire. Could you imagine how abusive an attack power without a defense would be though? If there are no defenses to Balefire for the "average" person, then this should be controlled with an iron fist by the GM.

 

Of course, if you could Dispel/Suppress Balefire before it strikes you....

 

A tricky problem.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Do you have a Book and Page reference?

 

Absolute Rules: 251 of FH --- not sure where it is in the revised Edition.

 

On the healing, lesser healing doesn't seem to be near as taxing. Recall that healing in WOT uses the wounded persons reserves, hence those who are near death (no reserves) tend to have much more need for ready sources of energy (food). Minor healing (less than 2d6) rarely seems to do much more than make the person hungry for a day.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

I believe both Aes Sedai and to a lesser extent their Warders get retarded aging, which makes an AS also eligible for a Distinctive Feature, "the ageless look." It was notable enough that Siuan (sp?), the former Amyrilin Seat, wasn't much recognized after being stilled.

 

JG

Yeah, did the expanded lifespan and ageless features for the Aes Sedai. I don't think that the Warders live as long, but maybe a lower expanded lifespan for the Warder. Thanks.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

]PS - The more I think about basing this off "The Gift" the more I like it. I am even considering chaning how I do it in my home game. Kudos to you - I was just talking about how my own system is already fully realized and participation in your thread was something like a scavenger hunt for little gems. Never expected to feel the desire to convert my own system

 

There is an up side to that - when I finish building characters they will be grossly compatible with your system.

 

My ultimate goal is to create a HERO to Wheel of Time resource. I truly am glad that you like where this is going. I know there are some rough spots to smooth over as we go along. I just think that we could build a pretty complete and playable "genre" book for Wheel of Time. And gross compatibility is a good thing.

 

Now, the Gift was only the base idea. I have modified the system to be a multiple of EGO, instead of a straight pool. I figured that would make Linking, angreal and Shielding easier by having them Aid or Suppress EGO. I differed the costs for males and females as well. Well, you saw the above outline. Are you working on the same premis or using the Gift wholecloth?

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Eosin,

Just had a couple of brainstorms. Your comments on Talents being irrelevant to the strength of the channeler sparked a couple of ideas.

 

Idea 1. Based very much on how I saw your channeling system, have each Weave built on different strengths. I imagine that the Weave itself is taught the same and the only difference between them is how much strength the individual "brings to the table." The channeler chooses at which strength to attempt the Weave based on how large their Pool is for that element.

 

Idea 2. If Talents are not necessarily related to the strength of the channeler, then buy them as separate powers. The Turakian Age magic system and a few of the sample ones from Fantasy HERO have set the precedent in giving spells a discounted price of Real Cost divided by 3 or 5. Since most channelers have just a couple of Talents, that shouldn't be too much of problem or expense.

 

Idea 3. Weaves can duplicate Talents, but are dictated by the strength of the channeler and are designed at the levels.

 

That's about it at the moment, but I think we are getting closer.

 

So how do you knot Weaves without a major game imbalance? Some situations, especially with Shielding, were knotted for extremely long periods of time, such as when Lanfear shielded Asmodean so he could teach Rand or when Moghedian shielded Liandrin with a knot so convoluted that it would take some time for Liandrin to figure it out.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Just to keep things rolling while I consider the whole Channeling issues. Sniffing, a la Hurin the Thief-Catcher from Sheinar.

 

Sniffing: Clairsentience Retrocognitive Smells the residue of violence done. (Smell/Taste And Perceive into a related Groups), Discriminatory, Tracking, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (135 Active Points); Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Only for detecting areas where violence was done. (-1/2). Real Cost:38

 

EDIT: Per discussion below, added additional Power Limitation and changed Real Cost.

 

EDIT II: Due to the recent change in board policies, replaced table with a direct Copy+Paste from HERO Designer.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Just to keep things rolling while I consider the whole Channeling issues. Sniffing' date=' [i']a la[/i] Hurin the Thief-Catcher from Sheinar.

 

Cost	Power	END
45	Sniffing: Retrocognitive Smells the residue of violence done. Discriminatory, Tracking, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (135 Active Points); Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)	0

Powers Cost: 45

 

Only to detect violence should be worth some points as a modifier.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Only to detect violence should be worth some points as a modifier.

You're probably right. What do think, a (-1/2)?

[James Gillen]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

You're probably right. What do think' date=' a (-1/2)?[/quote']

 

It's usually measured by utility, and in an RPG combat situations oughtta occur at least a third of the time- so -1/2 would be right for that.

 

JG

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

It's usually measured by utility, and in an RPG combat situations oughtta occur at least a third of the time- so -1/2 would be right for that.

 

JG

Thanks for the suggestion. Original post has been edited. I really appreciate when people help me get things together. I can really be a stingy bastiche when dealing with Power Modifiers.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Absolute Rules: 251 of FH --- not sure where it is in the revised Edition.

Ouch! Not just 8d6 Killing, but 8d6 Killing NND (appropriate, but very expensive). And you'd have to buy the Does Body Advantage too. Lessee....That's (8*15) * 3 = 360 Active Points.

 

Okay. Time to ponder solutions.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

I just looked over the Gift from FH. Not a bad way to simulate things. The hard part is going to be the nuiances - things like Healing (I suck as a channeler but I am the Bomb Healer or invert that). You might try a twist on that to be "STRONG XX" which is 1 character point for bump of 10 active pts towards your lowest strength pool.

 

EXAMPLE - Cordilla is a Yellow sister known for her healing talent but she was never ranked among the powerful sisters. It took her 10 years to gain the Shawl. She has ---

 

6 pts Affinity: Air (30 AP)

8 pts Affinity: Water (40 AP)

2 pts Affinity: Fire (5 AP) - Male

4 pts Affinity: Earth (10 AP) - Male

9 pts Affinity: Spirit (45 AP)

 

Healing weaves normally use all five affinities. In Cordillias case that means she can master, at best, 5 AP of healing. Luckily she bought the talent --- STRONG HEALER and spent 10 points. This means using a Healing weave she can max out at 105 AP (5 AP for Fire and 100 AP for Healing) but only for healing weaves.

 

 

 

EDIT: You can also invert that ----- WEAK HEALER (5 Points) would lower your AP for Healing only.

 

Whoa, I must've scrolled right past some of that or was too tired for it to register. Here I was thinking, especially with the cost of Balefire and Healing that the Gift rules wouldn't work.

 

Not really a quibble, but standard Healing uses Air, Water, and Spirit. It was only after Nyneave started demonstrating the more advanced techniques that the Healing became a mix of the five powers. Now to make them unique, the more advanced Healing would not have the same Side Effects that the standard does.

 

(I do like the idea of calling the Five Powers affinities. Consider the name stolen. )

 

Now the idea of buying Talents as "bonuses" to AP limits for a specific effect is nothing short of brilliant. Balefire is still one of those extra tough things to stimulate. With the NND and Does Body Power Advantages, the Active Points comes to a whopping 410 pts (with EDM power). Well, Balefire isn't something I would want too much of in my games so making it expensive isn't too bad of an idea. (Ick. Just looked at the -41 Skill Roll modifier (yeah right) and the 41 END Cost.)

 

Ah ha! I was trying to figure out how to represent the ability to Shield. I almost like your Entangle method, but I based my original thought on multiples of EGO for the Five Power Affinities. This was solely for the purpose of simulating how Lanfear partially/mostly shielded Asmodean, but left a small trickle so he could teach Rand. I think I have an idea now. Instead of basing the FPAs on EGO, do it just like the Gift (with the extra cost for cross-gender abilities) and have the channelers buy a END Reserve with Difficult to Dispel at least one or twice on it. That way, the END Reserve can be Suppressed, but still leave a little hole for the exact simulation as above. Makes Linking much easier too. AID split between END Reserve and all One Power abilities.

 

Hurm. Much to look at and tweak. This was a great post to reply to. Got the creative juices flowing. Thanks.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Surpress versus the END reserve is a great way of doing it. I think that may be the best avenue - the only campaign rule you need to lay down is the all weaves must draw their strength from the One Power END reserve. Where the mental entangle shines is that it does not automatically succeed or fail - the special effects of this can be percieved as

A) Failing to hit ECV = slicing the weave

Breaking out of the entangle = finding the hard knot or the opponent isn't strong enough to hold you.

C) Linking adds dramatically to the strength of the Entangle

 

Where you need to go now with the supress is to figure out how another channeler blocks or "slices" it and how one can manage to break out of it.

 

One the healing issue - yeap, reading New Spring brought to mind the fact that standard healing uses 3 affinities not all five. Whooops.

 

I am glad you like the talent proposal. It seems to be simple and clean. I am thinking that the best way to represent Balefire is still out there somewhere and we still haven't found it. My own version of Balefire is 840 AP way, way, too costly to fit into anything. I may re-look at the suggested Transform with enviromental side effects.

 

I don't think there is a whole lot of the skeleton of channeling to hammer out - once that is done it would be nice to collate the rules and put some meat on their bones.

[James Gillen]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Surpress versus the END reserve is a great way of doing it. I think that may be the best avenue - the only campaign rule you need to lay down is the all weaves must draw their strength from the One Power END reserve.

 

Would that mean that someone with a 'booster' (like a ter'an'greal) would be able to partially bypass the Shielding?

 

JG

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

oooh the wheel of the time keeps on churnin'

don't know if he'll ever wrap up.

The wheel of the time keeps on turnin'

how long can he keep this crap up.

 

 

sung to the tune of 'Wheel in the Sky'

[James Gillen]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Haw!

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Surpress versus the END reserve is a great way of doing it. I think that may be the best avenue - the only campaign rule you need to lay down is the all weaves must draw their strength from the One Power END reserve. Where the mental entangle shines is that it does not automatically succeed or fail - the special effects of this can be percieved as

A) Failing to hit ECV = slicing the weave

Breaking out of the entangle = finding the hard knot or the opponent isn't strong enough to hold you.

C) Linking adds dramatically to the strength of the Entangle

 

Where you need to go now with the supress is to figure out how another channeler blocks or "slices" it and how one can manage to break out of it.

Very good points. It seemed to me that slicing the Weaves was a whole different ability. I could be wrong, but that actually seemed to be using one Weave to cut another one. Shielding seemed to be creating a Weave and stuffing it between the channeler and the Source.

 

As to the other, we can make the Suppress BoECV and add the Physical Manifestation Limitation to it. That way it has a DEF and BODY that the Shielded could use EGO to try and break. Find Weakness would be a Talent (?) that a Channeler could buy that allowed them to find the "hard" knots and break through them.

 

EDIT: For that matter, there could even be a Shieldbreaking Talent that allows the character to buy extra EGO, Only for the purpose of breaking a Shield (-1). It isn't explicity described in the novels, but it makes sense for the system we are working with.

 

How's that?

 

One the healing issue - yeap, reading New Spring brought to mind the fact that standard healing uses 3 affinities not all five. Whooops.

My only issue with Healing, is that if we follow the novels, Healing should cover getting rid of Diseases and Toxins, as well as BODY. Very expensive in HERO terms. One thing I was thinking is that Delving would tell you what was wrong and the Healing could be "tuned" to the precise problem. That would cut the cost dramatically.

 

I am glad you like the talent proposal. It seems to be simple and clean. I am thinking that the best way to represent Balefire is still out there somewhere and we still haven't found it. My own version of Balefire is 840 AP way, way, too costly to fit into anything. I may re-look at the suggested Transform with enviromental side effects.

My New and Improved version of Balefire has a total Active cost of 460, a Real Cost of 204 and an END Cost of 36. That does cover the Absolute Effect with the EDM added on. I think that's about all we need to make it a workable solution. With the Talent rules as you presented them, it is still very doable, but only for those that want to spend a small fortune in points.

 

I don't think there is a whole lot of the skeleton of channeling to hammer out - once that is done it would be nice to collate the rules and put some meat on their bones.

Getting very close.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Would that mean that someone with a 'booster' (like a ter'an'greal) would be able to partially bypass the Shielding?

 

JG

Not to quibble, just to clarify for your benefit, the ter'angreal are more like "magic items" in just about any other role-playing setting. Angreal and sa'angreal are what you are referring to. Since the Shielding is Suppressed, somebody who is using one of those would be much hard to shield and could batter back the attempt easier.

 

The way I look at it, angreal and sa'angreal AID both the Weaves and the END reserve. The degree is based on what exactly you are using and the individual item. Should probably start thinking of some definitional guidelines to the angreal and (much) more powerful sa'angreal.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Would that mean that someone with a 'booster' (like a ter'an'greal) would be able to partially bypass the Shielding?

 

JG

 

It should be just about impossible to shield anyone with an Angrael or Sa'angrael.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

Very good points. It seemed to me that slicing the Weaves was a whole different ability. I could be wrong, but that actually seemed to be using one Weave to cut another one. Shielding seemed to be creating a Weave and stuffing it between the channeler and the Source.

 

As to the other, we can make the Suppress BoECV and add the Physical Manifestation Limitation to it. That way it has a DEF and BODY that the Shielded could use EGO to try and break. Find Weakness would be a Talent (?) that a Channeler could buy that allowed them to find the "hard" knots and break through them.

 

EDIT: For that matter, there could even be a Shieldbreaking Talent that allows the character to buy extra EGO, Only for the purpose of breaking a Shield (-1). It isn't explicity described in the novels, but it makes sense for the system we are working with.

 

How's that?

 

I need to think about this a little and review Supress to see what is what.

[James Gillen]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

It should be just about impossible to shield anyone with an Angrael or Sa'angrael.

 

That would mean that the effect could be given a Limitation for "all or nothing."

 

JG

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

That would mean that the effect could be given a Limitation for "all or nothing."

 

JG

It's kind of a touchy thing with that. Eosin's Entangle could just as easily represent an All or Nothing ability. In the narrative, there are at least two instances; one where a Shield is placed with a small "gap" to allow a trickle of energy through (Lanfear to Asmodean in The Dragon Reborn) and one where Nyneave was fighting Moghedian (Fires of Heaven). Both were trying to Shield the other and it was described as a gradual lessening in available power when one gained any slight advantage. The two were just so evenly matched that neither could gain the upper hand until Nyneave distracted Moghedian. On a similar vein, when Verin and Alanna tried to Shield Rand, it was described as a sluice gate coming down, which he pulled enough of the One Power through to throw back open the gate and then Shield them. (The sluice gate analogy was also used when Rand was successfully Shielded in Lord of Chaos).

 

Now the reason angreal/sa'angreal make so much of a difference is that they boost the power of the person that has one. Unless their was a massive amount of disparity between the channelers to begin with (for instance if Nyneave ws trying to shield Suane after she was stilled and restored), then the angreal/sa'angreal would definitely provide the edge that would just allow the possessor to overwhelm another channeler's attempt to Shield. So the statement Eosin made (if I am interpreting it correctly) is that the person with the edge (the angreal) is strong enough to just counter any attempts made by one who doesn't.

 

Just as an interesting aside, I wonder how a Circle (many Linked channelers) would fare against a single channeler with a sa'angreal.

[Eosin]

Re: The Wheel of Time

 

It's kind of a touchy thing with that. Eosin's Entangle could just as easily represent an All or Nothing ability. In the narrative, there are at least two instances; one where a Shield is placed with a small "gap" to allow a trickle of energy through (Lanfear to Asmodean in The Dragon Reborn) and one where Nyneave was fighting Moghedian (Fires of Heaven). Both were trying to Shield the other and it was described as a gradual lessening in available power when one gained any slight advantage. The two were just so evenly matched that neither could gain the upper hand until Nyneave distracted Moghedian. On a similar vein, when Verin and Alanna tried to Shield Rand, it was described as a sluice gate coming down, which he pulled enough of the One Power through to throw back open the gate and then Shield them. (The sluice gate analogy was also used when Rand was successfully Shielded in Lord of Chaos).

 

Now the reason angreal/sa'angreal make so much of a difference is that they boost the power of the person that has one. Unless their was a massive amount of disparity between the channelers to begin with (for instance if Nyneave ws trying to shield Suane after she was stilled and restored), then the angreal/sa'angreal would definitely provide the edge that would just allow the possessor to overwhelm another channeler's attempt to Shield. So the statement Eosin made (if I am interpreting it correctly) is that the person with the edge (the angreal) is strong enough to just counter any attempts made by one who doesn't.

 

Strange - we read the same stuff but see it differnetly I always viewed Shielding as an all or nothing event barring the Asmodean issue which had him Shielded and then later Lanfear tied and inverted a shiled like weave around him. The text, to me, always seemed to be excititory rather and descriptive of how close the Shield got to cutting them off, as opposed to how their power dimmed as they were assaulted by the Shield. In much the same way that a boxing commentator might describe each blow in terms of how close it came to knocking someone out but in reality the only punch that matters is the KO.

 

Just as an interesting aside' date=' I wonder how a Circle (many Linked channelers) would fare against a single channeler with a sa'angreal.[/quote']

 

A circle of 13 could likely get anyone short of Callandor or the Chodan kal - However, I think that it would take 5-8 strong and efficient channelers to get Rand if he was ready and holding the little fat man (thinking that 4-5 are needed to get him (while holding the source) normally). That is just my opinion though and I could easily be over or underestimating it.