Schmucks?

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

What you're really saying is that any character with a large open-ended VPP should have long ago accomplished his goal because you can use the points in that VPP to construct powers that would accomplish those goals.

 

You sound like you consider the purely mechanical considerations of what someone's character sheet would allow them to do to be the only thing that matters when considering what they should / could have accomplished.

 

I consider the GM and Authors' choices to be the primary things that matter when allocating points in massive VPPs. Steve agrees. I also consider the GM and Authors' choices to be the primary things that matter when deciding what a villain with a massive VPP should and could accomplish. Everything else is just how you tell the story.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Mechanically he has all the power he needs to destroy all life on Earth in multiple ways that Heroes absolutely can not interfere with no matter their point levels; No uber protective keep the Earth safe spells have been mentioned in any CU source book. If you want to add such, fine; that is a GM's Call. If Steve, Allen, Darren, etc. add it, that is an Author's Call. And no PC or NPC hero team has a hope of stopping him, unless the GM or the Author choose to let them. That's the way a Tak class villain works.

 

So another character, with the same set of powers as Tak, couldn't stop Tak?

 

As for "not mentioned in any source book", again, I have to point out that the CU is very much a hit-and-miss thing with details.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I consider the GM and Authors' choices to be the primary things that matter when allocating points in massive VPPs. Steve agrees. I also consider the GM and Authors' choices to be the primary things that matter when deciding what a villain with a massive VPP should and could accomplish. Everything else is just how you tell the story.

 

Then why do you keep saying that Takofanes should have accomplished his goals already, and that no one could stop him?

 

Are you disagreeing with the author's decisions, or just looking at his VPP?

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

So another character, with the same set of powers as Tak, couldn't stop Tak?

 

As for "not mentioned in any source book", again, I have to point out that the CU is very much a hit-and-miss thing with details.

 

No, Tak could not stop Tak from accomplishing the goal of wiping out all life on Earth, unless the GM wanted Tak1 to be stopped. That's how VPPs at that level work. It's not a cage match; killing all of Humanity does not require him to beat up his clone, unless the GM makes that call.

 

Placing your faith in a never even hinted at Good Guys Win spell is pushing things, but maybe your players will go for it. It is your GM's call.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Perhaps' date=' Zornwill, the problem is that the real contention for some of the poster on this thread is not that high powered heroes do not exist. They acknowledge that there are probably such heroes. They may even acknowledge that specificly mentioned characters like Walkabout, Iron Imam, or Star Gaurd, [b']might[/b] be powerful enough to meet their desires (and yes, people this is a desire not a need), but until they see an official write up they will not accept that they are that powerful.

 

Personally, I don't mind the idea of seeing a write up, but I do not want to see tons of references to those characters. I don't want those characters to become the focus of the setting.

But I do think that to a combo of megaplayboy's and Metaphysician's points, these uber-villains seem so personally murderous that it does seem odd that hunted 350 point characters could squeak by for long. They don't seem more like the Galactus type who just eat worlds and don't think in terms of individuals until directly confronted. I think (maybe) there's an oddi mbalance of Iron and Silver in the CU.

 

Bear in mind I don't know CU well enough...

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Then why do you keep saying that Takofanes should have accomplished his goals already' date=' and that no one [b']could[/b] stop him?

 

Are you disagreeing with the author's decisions, or just looking at his VPP?

 

Go back a few threads and re-read. You are completely missing the point.

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

No' date=' Tak could not stop Tak from accomplishing the goal of wiping out all life on Earth, unless the GM wanted Tak1 to be stopped. That's how VPPs at that level work. It's not a cage match; killing all of Humanity does not require him to beat up his clone, unless the GM makes that call.[/b'].

And what stops Bizzaro Tak from simply using a MegaScale "Suppress Wiping Out All Life On Earth Power" to counter Tak?

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And what stops Bizzaro Tak from simply using a MegaScale "Suppress Wiping Out All Life On Earth Power" to counter Tak?

 

He'd have to know exactly what Tak was doing, when, and where. All GM calls. Tak would have to fail to simply change his strategy, or use common Invisibility to Danger Sense and Precognition spells to protect himself. GM's call. Etc, etc, etc.

 

I've got to find a "It's A GM's Call" smiley button.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

One other consideration, which I infer from OddHat's posts, is that the CU universe isn't finished without the GM. As such, it might be hasty to criticize when in fact any "holes" are deliberate so that the GM has a necessary input area that demands at least some attention. Or the GM can still even ignore that and just buy modules, which typically have nothing to do with Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes or other such massive evil constructs.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

No, Tak could not stop Tak from accomplishing the goal of wiping out all life on Earth, unless the GM wanted Tak1 to be stopped. That's how VPPs at that level work. It's not a cage match; killing all of Humanity does not require him to beat up his clone, unless the GM makes that call.

 

Maybe AntiTak has a Sense Tak About to Win spell up all the time, and is prepared to cast a Teleport to Tak spell, and then a Turn Tak into a Newt spell. Huge, unrestricted VPPs are silly -- I think we kinda agree on that.

 

Placing your faith in a never even hinted at Good Guys Win spell is pushing things, but maybe your players will go for it. It is your GM's call.

 

It's not a matter of placing any faith in it, it's just the first thing I came up with off the top of my head as a simple reason for Tak to be having trouble simply casting a "change all life into my zombie slaves" spell. Another possibility that such a spell just can't be pulled off. Another might be that he hasn't been able to get all the stuff together that he needs -- and he's ancient enough that 17 years might not seem like a long time to him.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Go back a few threads and re-read. You are completely missing the point.

 

A few threads, or a few pages on this thread?

 

There's so much posting on this thread that I might have read what you're refering to, and I'm just not linking it up with this exchange.

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

He'd have to know exactly what Tak was doing, when, and where. All GM calls. Tak would have to fail to simply change his strategy, or use common Invisibility to Danger Sense and Precognition spells to protect himself. GM's call. Etc, etc, etc.

 

I've got to find a "It's A GM's Call" smiley button.

Bizarro Tak has the INT and Tactics at equal levels to Tak. And also has the option of proactively using a MegaScale Transform to change everyone into "Beings Harder For Tak To Kill."

 

And your definition of GM's Call is so broad that practically anything any villain does falls under it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Yes. That's a GM's call, all of which (imo) should have some in-game justification. The GM might also need to justify Tak not going into another dimension and calling up an endless army of his Demons (such an action is legal, depending on GM's call) then releasing them on the Earth at hundreds or thousands of different points, a few hundred more demons every minute: That is a set of spells he certainly does know, and keeping himself from being detected from those few who might try is nothing. Then you have to justify him not simply, undetectably taking over the minds of ket players in Russia, China and the US and starting WWIII, again with no chance of heroes getting in the way. Then you have to ...

 

High powered heroes or no high powered heroes, past a certain point only the choices of the writers keep fictional Earths alive. As the GM, even if you follow the rules exactly as written, it is entirely your choice whether or not a certain class of villain will win.

 

Easiest way to prevent the "unlimited demon hoard" trick: the Descending Hierarchy doesn't want to turn over control of a large fraction of Hell's forces to a mortal, especially an extremely powerful one who is unlikely in the extreme to get screwed over successfully by them.

 

Thus, Takofanes only can get those demons that he can literally compel to come and serve usually, and even he can't do that constantly.

 

( now undead, *those* he could probably produce in unlimited numbers, but then he runs into the whole need for corpses problem, and the fact that armies of normal zombies are probably barely worth more than a distraction usually )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Takofanes came out of the hole 17 years ago and does have a 30 Int. He's not an idiot or a Grond with magic. He's an archlich with vast power and knowledge, and the ability to learn. He once was a ruler and understood political boundaries, powers, and kingdoms.

 

And those KS's aren't on my "real life" sheet either, that doesn't mean I have no idea who Canadians and Mexicans are.

 

As for not understanding the modern world, that's not on his character sheet either.

 

And Takofanes does use demon servitors.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it *is* mentioned somewhere that he has minimal understanding of the modern world.

 

More importantly, his sanity has taken a serious dive compared to his pinaccle. Something about 70 millenia of solitary confinement. . .

 

( and yeah, Tak summons demons, but there is plenty of space between "able to summon demons" and "able to summon the Hordes of Hell" )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You know, there *is* a difference between "GM/Author decision about how to design the setting so that _____ does/does not happen" and "GM/Author decides that ____ does/does not happen."

 

The former is called "Good design," the latter is called "arbitrary breach of SoD."

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it *is* mentioned somewhere that he has minimal understanding of the modern world.

 

More importantly, his sanity has taken a serious dive compared to his pinaccle. Something about 70 millenia of solitary confinement. . .

 

( and yeah, Tak summons demons, but there is plenty of space between "able to summon demons" and "able to summon the Hordes of Hell" )

 

But not in the mechanics; the only reason he is not able to summon unlimited Demon's is GM fiat. The GM is still handing the players the victory; if he justifies it and plays it out well, they'll enjoy it. If not, it will feel cheap. Your next point was much better.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You know, there *is* a difference between "GM/Author decision about how to design the setting so that _____ does/does not happen" and "GM/Author decides that ____ does/does not happen."

 

The former is called "Good design," the latter is called "arbitrary breach of SoD."

 

And this is a good point, and one reason I'd like an Allies book (or "Heroes, Heroines, and Helpers", or whatever). SoD will be easier with many characters within continuity with a few high powered heroes about.

 

But not Tak. He's a plot device to the core.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Easiest way to prevent the "unlimited demon hoard" trick: the Descending Hierarchy doesn't want to turn over control of a large fraction of Hell's forces to a mortal, especially an extremely powerful one who is unlikely in the extreme to get screwed over successfully by them.

 

Thus, Takofanes only can get those demons that he can literally compel to come and serve usually, and even he can't do that constantly.

 

( now undead, *those* he could probably produce in unlimited numbers, but then he runs into the whole need for corpses problem, and the fact that armies of normal zombies are probably barely worth more than a distraction usually )

 

His Demons are not under the control of the descending Hierarchy. Check the write up. And you are still using a GMs call to gimp him.

[Vondy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

His Demons are not under the control of the descending Hierarchy. Check the write up. And you are still using a GMs call to gimp him.

 

My GM caveat is that monster manual villians from fantasy worlds don't exist.

 

The Taco Bell Lick annoys me.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Bizarro Tak has the INT and Tactics at equal levels to Tak. And also has the option of proactively using a MegaScale Transform to change everyone into "Beings Harder For Tak To Kill."

 

And your definition of GM's Call is so broad that practically anything any villain does falls under it.

 

Play out the scenario yourself. No GM's favor for either character. I think you'll be surprised at how hard it will be for Tak2 to even figure out what Tak1 is doing, let alone stop him, unless you gimp Tak1's ability to use his pool and/or play Tak1 as a moron.

 

Most of the things villains do are Authors' or GM's calls; these are fictional worlds. Who do you think is running them?

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

My GM caveat is that monster manual villians from fantasy worlds don't exist.

 

The Taco Bell Lick annoys me.

 

Yes, I think he's a crap villain as well. But he is a good example of a walking plot device.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually' date=' I'm pretty sure it *is* mentioned somewhere that he has minimal understanding of the modern world.[/quote']

While it is mentioned in his background it's not in his character sheet, which was the point I was rebuffing. Just because something isn't on a character sheet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Vondy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

While it is mentioned in his background it's not in his character sheet' date=' which was the point I was rebuffing. Just because something isn't on a character sheet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.[/quote']

 

Uh-oh! This is starting to sound like the dreaded Doc D V. Taco Bell Lich thread...

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Uh-oh! This is starting to sound like the dreaded Doc D V. Taco Bell Lich thread...

I don't know what thread that is. I'm just making the point that Chuckg said Takofanes can't do something because it's not on his character sheet, but then turns around and talks about a "disadvantage" the character supposedly has which is also not on his character sheet. You can't have it both ways. Either the character sheet reflects the character 100% or there is room for GM fudging.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

One other consideration' date=' which I infer from OddHat's posts, is that the CU universe isn't finished without the GM. As such, it might be hasty to criticize when in fact any "holes" are deliberate so that the GM has a necessary input area that demands at least some attention. Or the GM can still even ignore that and just buy modules, which typically have nothing to do with Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes or other such massive evil constructs.[/quote']

 

Yes, and that is an intentional design choice. It's your world, your rules, and a fine deal at $39.95 for the first hit.