Schmucks?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

... the whole point of Lord of the Rings was that Frodo *WASN'T* some kind of Fated Chosen One.

 

That guy was called Aragorn, and, well, he didn't win. He held up his side of the line in a support role / diversion while the Ring-Bearer and his party won, but the Fated Chosen One /was/ the "overshadowed" character.

 

And the fact that Frodo was the only one who could stop Sauron wasn't what let him do so.

 

His hobbit nature, courage, skills, and good friend Sam, were what let him succeed.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Depends what you mean. In true comic book fashion' date=' the big bad cannot/will not be vanquished until the end of many many issues and most likely as part of a very major event. He might be beaten or frustrated incrementally, tactically, but he continues his campaign "forever". In that light, I don't see why some 350s can't frustrate the evil guys' plans time and again and grow until they face him in the ultra-big battle where "...and one shall die!"[/quote']

 

Mostly because in a non-pure Silver game, after the first or second time the 350ers foil the plot of someone, said someone is going to start Hunting them in some manner proportionate to their level of disruption.

 

IOW, you can't just keep having the heroes foil the plot and not have the villain *do* something about it without breaking suspension of disbelief.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Plus, Frodo was not the /only/ one who could have stopped Sauron - he was merely the best candidate.

 

... hasn't anyone ever wondered why the Fellowship took along *FOUR* hobbits? When at least two of them started out as apparently useless baggage?

 

Answer -- potential replacement Ring-Bearers.

 

Gandalf and Elrond might have been taking a desperate gamble, but it was a desperate gamble they did their best to hedge wherever they could.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The problem is, as the CU megavillains are currently statted, the 350s won't live long enough to *have* a next battle -- unless the DM deliberately (and repeatedly) muffs his shot.

 

There's a word for that, and it's called 'gimme'.

 

And knowing that you're alive only 'cause of continual DM gimmes kills the game.

Why wouldn't they live long enough? Are you suggesting they are necessarily stupid enough to go right up against the Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes right away? Even the CU material, as little as I know of it, points out that squadrons of supers had to come out to fight Dr. Destroyer in the destruction of Detroit, and he got away. Why they wouldn't live makes no sense, unless you're going to say "why did Daredevil live against Kingpin", "why didn't Superman just get killed by somebody with kryptonite," and "why didn't some villain just shoot Batman in the head when they had him trapped".

 

Again, it's a trope of the source material.

 

PS - same response to Metaphysician's point.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Why wouldn't they live long enough? Are you suggesting they are necessarily stupid enough to go right up against the Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes right away? Even the CU material, as little as I know of it, points out that squadrons of supers had to come out to fight Dr. Destroyer in the destruction of Detroit, and he got away. Why they wouldn't live makes no sense, unless you're going to say "why did Daredevil live against Kingpin", "why didn't Superman just get killed by somebody with kryptonite," and "why didn't some villain just shoot Batman in the head when they had him trapped".

 

Again, it's a trope of the source material.

 

Um, the supers that confronted Dr D at Detroit *DID* die. 50 of them.

 

Its even worse for Takofanes, as he doesn't really *have* plots to foil: his "plans" typically consist of appearing somewhere, doing some massive magical feat, and then the consequences thereof happening.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Um, the supers that confronted Dr D at Detroit *DID* die. 50 of them.

 

Its even worse for Takofanes, as he doesn't really *have* plots to foil: his "plans" typically consist of appearing somewhere, doing some massive magical feat, and then the consequences thereof happening.

Yes, I know they died, that is my point.

 

The 350s are not designed to go up directly against Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes. That is my point. PS - and my point is the source material makes that clear.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Re:

 

"Why did Daredevil live against the Kingpin": Certainly not because Kingpin hasn't tried to kill him before, because he has. Typically, DD survives because he's skilled enough to avoid the means of death. Or, in the case of Born Again, he survived because Kingpin got too cocky. Even then, he still didn't merely survive randomly; he had to use his capabilities to do so.

 

"Why hasn't Superman been killed with Kryptonite": Post crisis, there *ain't* much kryptonite. That helps. Plus, people have *tried* to kill him with the stuff; typically, he survives due to little things called "cleverness and skill."

 

"Why hasn't Batman been shot in the head": Fair enough here, there are plenty of cases where this could have happened. However, post-Crisis, they have tried to keep the number of captured scenarios down, minimizing the issue. Thus, the way Batman typically survives is "Don't get captured."

 

Note the common thread: characters survive by *using their skills and abilities*, and in some cases, *exploiting actual characrer flaws of the opponent.*

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Just to be clear here...the CU super-team is a model for the PCs. It's not a model of a team that would go toe-to-toe against Dr. D or Takofanes. Similarly, starting supers can't go toe-to-toe against the most dreaded foes of all time either. And even when they do, the most dreaded usually gets away and the team wins mainly by outsmarting him rather than brute force.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Re:

 

"Why did Daredevil live against the Kingpin": Certainly not because Kingpin hasn't tried to kill him before, because he has. Typically, DD survives because he's skilled enough to avoid the means of death. Or, in the case of Born Again, he survived because Kingpin got too cocky. Even then, he still didn't merely survive randomly; he had to use his capabilities to do so.

 

"Why hasn't Superman been killed with Kryptonite": Post crisis, there *ain't* much kryptonite. That helps. Plus, people have *tried* to kill him with the stuff; typically, he survives due to little things called "cleverness and skill."

 

"Why hasn't Batman been shot in the head": Fair enough here, there are plenty of cases where this could have happened. However, post-Crisis, they have tried to keep the number of captured scenarios down, minimizing the issue. Thus, the way Batman typically survives is "Don't get captured."

 

Note the common thread: characters survive by *using their skills and abilities*, and in some cases, *exploiting actual characrer flaws of the opponent.*

First, you're referring to things they did later in comics to seemingly fix these issues, rather than them in their own time.

 

Second, even so, I think you just go towards making the case that these guys don't actually succeed by going toe-to-toe.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I have no disagreement with *that*. I disagree with the idea that heroes should survive being Hunted outside of their own capabilities and the psych limits of their Hunted. Or, likewise, that a villain should automatically get away irrespective of his opponents' capabilities relative to his own.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

First, you're referring to things they did later in comics to seemingly fix these issues, rather than them in their own time.

 

Second, even so, I think you just go towards making the case that these guys don't actually succeed by going toe-to-toe.

 

Um, those later comics are what the Champions Universe is primarily based on. of course I have them in mind. As I said earlier, *unless* you are playing pure-Silver Age. . .

 

And yeah, they don't go toe to toe. They still use capabilities inherent to themselves, which ain't free.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I have no disagreement with *that*. I disagree with the idea that heroes should survive being Hunted outside of their own capabilities and the psych limits of their Hunted. Or' date=' likewise, that a villain should automatically get away irrespective of his opponents' capabilities relative to his own.[/quote']

I don't see an issue, then. Why is the Hunted necessarily breaking what you suggest? Hunted is not the same as "this character tries to kill you every chance they get," and even "this character personally will kill you," and even "you are the number 25 or greater priority of this character." The level fo the Hunted disad has to be in line with the points. Buying a Hunted that is "will kill me automatically" worth something like 400 points and they weren't bought that way.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Um, those later comics are what the Champions Universe is primarily based on. of course I have them in mind. As I said earlier, *unless* you are playing pure-Silver Age. . .

 

And yeah, they don't go toe to toe. They still use capabilities inherent to themselves, which ain't free.

I don't think the CU is written in so orthodox a manner as you suggest. I think it is very generic and intended to be played anywhere along the Silver-Bronze axis.

 

PS - and still, those later issue fixes can be seen as just as contrived as anything one would do as a GM

[Enforcer84]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Are you all still here?

geez.

 

I guess it isn't the characters that are schmucks after all, eh?

 

 

 

Can't we all just get a pizza and get along?

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Can't we all just get a pizza and get along?

Impossible. Whamme is going to get his +2d6 Mjolnir, I'm going to get my +10d6 Mjolnir, and Metaphysician is going to get his +20d6 Mjolnir and we're just going to have it out in the danger room. Good thing I've got 50% damage reduction.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Impossible. Whamme is going to get his +2d6 Mjolnir' date=' I'm going to get my +10d6 Mjolnir, and Metaphysician is going to get his +20d6 Mjolnir and we're just going to have it out in the danger room. Good thing I've got 50% damage reduction. [/quote']

 

You realize Gary is going to win it with his Mjolnir-on-one-point build, don't you?

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You realize Gary is going to win it with his Mjolnir-on-one-point build' date=' don't you? [/quote']

I know. That's why I didn't invite him. I can only hope Whamme doesn't secretly commission him.

[assault]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Of course the real way to stop the megavillains is to trick them into attacking Hudson City.

 

Then they'd have to deal with you-know-who.

 

Or failing that, the power-nerfing effect that operates there would allow someone to rip the rubber mask off Takofanes' head.

 

"I'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids!"

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I don't see an issue' date=' then. Why is the Hunted necessarily breaking what you suggest? Hunted is not the same as "this character tries to kill you every chance they get," and even "this character personally will kill you," and even "you are the number 25 or greater priority of this character." The level fo the Hunted disad has to be in line with the points. Buying a Hunted that is "will kill me automatically" worth something like 400 points and they weren't bought that way.[/quote']

 

You don't need to buy a Hunted if you earn it in play.

 

In any case, the problem is that *eventually* you reach a point that the villain puts more effort into Hunting you than you can readily deal with. Whether this means Dr Destroyer deploying a small army of hunter-killer destroids, VIPER laying an ambush in your home, or simply Holocaust showing up at your headquarters after having charged off a power main, eventually, the villain *will* be more than the heroes can handle, if they have otherwise gotten by on nothing but cleverness.

 

If the villains never put more than a halfhearted effort into getting rid of someone who persisently and severely interrupts their doings, than someone is being misplayed.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I don't think the CU is written in so orthodox a manner as you suggest. I think it is very generic and intended to be played anywhere along the Silver-Bronze axis.

 

PS - and still, those later issue fixes can be seen as just as contrived as anything one would do as a GM

 

They are only contrived because they are fixing a prior problem. If, when you create the world, you design it with reasonable internal consistency and relative logic in mind, it ceases to be contrived.

 

Or, to put it more bluntly: the best policy is to figure out what kind of person _____ is, and then have him act like it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Impossible. Whamme is going to get his +2d6 Mjolnir' date=' I'm going to get my +10d6 Mjolnir, and Metaphysician is going to get his +20d6 Mjolnir and we're just going to have it out in the danger room. Good thing I've got 50% damage reduction. [/quote']

 

Now now, Mjolnir probably is only around +10d6. . . when Thor doesn't dump the entire attached VPP into HA.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Now now' date=' Mjolnir probably is only around +10d6. . . when Thor doesn't dump the entire attached VPP into HA. [/quote']

 

 

Actually, I don't think Mjollnir is more than about +4d6. Thor with the hammer only seems to do slightly more damage than Thor or Hercules with their bare fists.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually' date=' I don't think Mjollnir is more than about +4d6. Thor with the hammer only seems to do slightly more damage than Thor or Hercules with their bare fists.[/quote']

 

Yeah. Of course, he can augment that with his godly might (when Mjolnir starts crackling with energy, it hops up in damage).

[Karma]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I find it ironic that this comment would come from the Dark Champions board, a board based on a game where a 350 pt character would be the 'Harbinger of (frickin') Justice'. I'd expect the comment to be "anyone who feels they need that many points in a Dark Champions game is a schmuck, this should be a 'heroic' level game".

From the sound of it some of the people on the Dark Champions board should be playing 'Galactic Dark Champions: Defending the Universe from the Scum of the Earth'.

Of course I may just be misreading...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I find it ironic that this comment would come from the Dark Champions board, a board based on a game where a 350 pt character would be the 'Harbinger of (frickin') Justice'. I'd expect the comment to be "anyone who feels they need that many points in a Dark Champions game is a schmuck, this should be a 'heroic' level game".

From the sound of it some of the people on the Dark Champions board should be playing 'Galactic Dark Champions: Defending the Universe from the Scum of the Earth'.

Of course I may just be misreading...

 

Actually, the HoJ is more like 700-800 points. Which is the origin of the argument.