Schmucks?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'll tell you what. You play your dudes and I'll play Takofanes in an arena duel. Assuming no ambush on either side.

 

Anyone care to take a bet on who'll win?

 

Dude, I wouldn't take that bet with Doctor Destroyer and the Harbinger of Justice added to my side.

 

These guys can sneak up on big T, and hit him so hard he never does anything relevant again... while never actually giving him the option to notice they're there.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Dude, I wouldn't take that bet with Doctor Destroyer and the Harbinger of Justice added to my side.

 

These guys can sneak up on big T, and hit him so hard he never does anything relevant again... while never actually giving him the option to notice they're there.

 

 

Don't forget the Danger Sense...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Exactly who is whipping up said Darkness?? Especially since the Detect is *not* a Sense Group.

 

There's a small power pool on the last character.

 

And it may well be in it's own sense group, but that doesn't help.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Danger Sense. He already knows in the beginning whether these people pose a danger or not.

 

Uhm... and big T is paranoid enough to abort just because he might get attacked? Oookay...

 

I believe Danger Sense is also a sense vulnerable to being invisible to.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Don't forget the Danger Sense...

 

Anyway. They answer your challenge. They're 350, they have no hideous brokenness, and they represent a significant danger to The Big Two.

 

And I have two more members to add (potentially) who can patch any holes in the team strategy.

 

There is no need for higher powered heroes.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Or he could just toss some nastiness their way' date=' like a 20d6 Explosion, or a 20d6 0 END Mind Control, with one of his scepter attacks thrown in for good measure.[/quote']

 

Uhm... dude, they clobber him before his DEX comes up. For any of that to work, he has to get an action.

 

Edit: To be more precise, he's entangled and unable to see them at that point. I need to up the DEX on MightyMan...

 

...but they still prove my point. The first draft was almost good enough, the second should fix the niggling little gaps...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The Suppress ain't gonna do a damn thing against most of the major villains. Its just too small.

 

Yeah, well, every little bit helps. It's mostly there because it fits the concept of the character.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Anyway. They answer your challenge. They're 350, they have no hideous brokenness, and they represent a significant danger to The Big Two.

 

And I have two more members to add (potentially) who can patch any holes in the team strategy.

 

There is no need for higher powered heroes.

 

 

No, you have a team that can potentially take out the big 2 if they get an ambush (a highly questionable assumption considering Tak's danger sense or DD's Tactics 16-). That is not the same thing as being able to deal with them in a meeting engagement.

 

Your group probably would be destroyed simply by Tak or DD's minions. None of them are especially tough vs hordes of 800 pt undead or DD's agents and mechas.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

No, you have a team that can potentially take out the big 2 if they get an ambush (a highly questionable assumption considering Tak's danger sense or DD's Tactics 16-). That is not the same thing as being able to deal with them in a meeting engagement.

 

Your group probably would be destroyed simply by Tak or DD's minions. None of them are especially tough vs hordes of 800 pt undead or DD's agents and mechas.

 

Their plan is to show up looking like part of the sky and then unload everything in one hit.

 

Tactics doesn't help when you don't know there's anyone out there...

 

...and DD and T are supposed to require more than a single team to stop anyway, according to their official descriptions...

 

...and how many 750pt teams wouldn't crumble to you suggested tactics ANYWAY? None that I've seen.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Their plan is to show up looking like part of the sky and then unload everything in one hit.

 

Tactics doesn't help when you don't know there's anyone out there...

 

...and DD and T are supposed to require more than a single team to stop anyway, according to their official descriptions...

 

...and how many 750pt teams wouldn't crumble to you suggested tactics ANYWAY? None that I've seen.

 

 

That's assuming that:

 

1) The team knows exactly where they are

2) They're not detected upon approach

3) Neither Tak nor DD have contingency plans

4) Tak or DD are alone without any minions around

5) Neither Tak nor DD have their pools defaulting into something useful

6) Neither of them make some sort of roll

7) Neither of them aborts.

8) The rolls actually go their way.

 

A group of 750 pters or 1000 pters would be a far more serious threat to either of the big 2. They'll have higher defenses, higher attacks, and higher CVs. They may not be able to defeat an intelligently played Tak or DD (although it's possible depending on how they're built), but they can certainly chase them away or defeat their plans. And it's also possible that the side of good has a 1500-2500 pt character around who can deal with these cosmic threats but usually doesn't bother with the small stuff.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The problem with the Champions Universe is that the most powerful individuals are all villains.

 

The most powerful magic-user? He's a 100K year old undead lich.

The guy with the best tech? He's an old Nazi supergenius.

The strongest guy? A rampaging deformed psychotic idiot.

The most powerful telepath? A guy who spent too much time reading internet mind control sex stories and decided to try them out.

 

The best and the brightest are all evil. It's a very dark world. They need heroes who can actually stop these menaces.

 

As far as the 350 point "extreme" characters, you're in for a world of hurt if you try to use those. What happens when they fly close to Takofanes, and suddenly find their souls removed by his AE Invisible Death Aura? Or when Dr Destroyer shows up at their house, watching their TV? "Destroyer's cable is out. Destroyer will watch the game here! Grrah! Touchdown??? Destroyer hates Notre Dame! You there, get Destroyer a coke!"

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?Challenge Answered, following the rules in Gary's first post:This homeless street preacher will hear of a supernatural moster, such as Tak, running free in a city, make his way to that city as best he can, and solve the problem. (OK, I'm really bored, and this is silly, but why not):

The Wrath Reverend Joeseph Steel Val Char Cost 10 STR 0 10 DEX 0 10 CON 0 10 BODY 0 13 INT 3 10 EGO 0 10 PRE 0 8 COM -1 2 PD 0 2 ED 0 4 SPD 20 4 REC 0 20 END 0 20 STUN 0
6"	RUN	0
2"	SWIM	0
12"	LEAP	0

Characteristics Cost: 22

Cost	Power	END
200	HIS INESCAPEABLE WRATH: Energy Blast 36d6, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (450 Active Points); Concentration (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), No Range (-1/2)	0
52	HIS GLORIOUS PROTECTION: Invisibility to Mental Group, Danger Sense, Spatial Awareness, N-Ray Perception, Detect Life and Mystic Awareness , No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (78 Active Points); Always On (-1/2)	0
12	ON A MISSION FROM SOMEONE CLAIMING TO BE GOD: Life Support (Eating Character only has to eat once per week; Extended Breathing: 1 END per Turn; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week)	0
15	His Divine Guidance: Detect Supernatal Evil 12- (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Rapid (x10), Telescopic (+4 versus Range Modifier)	0
25	Wings Of His Love: (Total: 37 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Leaping +10" (12" forward, 6" upward) (10 Active Points); Restrainable (Big Black Wings; -1/2) (Real Cost: 7) plus Gliding 12" (12 Active Points); Restrainable (Big Black Wings; -1/2) (Real Cost: 8) plus Flight 5", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2) (Real Cost: 10)	2
7	I Know No Fear: +14 PRE (14 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1)

Powers Cost: 311

Cost	Skill
3	Scholar
1	1) KS: Arcane and Occult Lore (2 Active Points) 11-
1	2) KS: Demon Lore (2 Active Points) 11-
1	3) KS: Devil Lore (2 Active Points) 11-
1	4) KS: The King James Bible (2 Active Points) 11-
1	5) KS: Twisted Theology (2 Active Points) 11-
1	6) KS: Undead Lore (2 Active Points) 11-
2	PS: Preacher 11-

Skills Cost: 11

Cost	Talent
3	Bump Of Direction
3	Absolute Range Sense

Talents Cost: 6

Val	Disadvantages
20	Psychological Limitation: Detroy All Monsters (Common, Total)
20	Psychological Limitation: Better 10000 Good Men Should Die Than One Villain Go Free (Common, Total)
25	Psychological Limitation: I Am The Wrath Of God (Very Common, Total)
25	Psychological Limitation: Contempt For The Things Of This World (Very Common, Total)
35	Enraged: Berserk Whe Sees Supernatural Evil (Uncommon), go 14-, recover 8-
15	Enraged: Berserk If Injured (Uncommon), go 8-, recover 14-
10	Money: Destitute

Disadvantage Points: 150

---

Cost Summary:Base Points:200Disadvantage Points: 150Total Experience Available: 0Total Character Cost: 350Height: 2.00 mHair: BrownWeight: 100.00 kgEyes: BrownAppearance: Personality: Quote:Background: Powers/Tactics: Campaign Use: 

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

That's assuming that:

 

1) The team knows exactly where they are

2) They're not detected upon approach

3) Neither Tak nor DD have contingency plans

4) Tak or DD are alone without any minions around

5) Neither Tak nor DD have their pools defaulting into something useful

6) Neither of them make some sort of roll

7) Neither of them aborts.

8) The rolls actually go their way.

 

A group of 750 pters or 1000 pters would be a far more serious threat to either of the big 2. They'll have higher defenses, higher attacks, and higher CVs. They may not be able to defeat an intelligently played Tak or DD (although it's possible depending on how they're built), but they can certainly chase them away or defeat their plans. And it's also possible that the side of good has a 1500-2500 pt character around who can deal with these cosmic threats but usually doesn't bother with the small stuff.

 

1) If they're going to fight, they're going to have to know where each other are in general terms. Beyond that, they can fly around rapidly and home in on the location of the target.

2) That's why there's a huge images power. So they _can't_

3) Pray tell, what "Contingency Plans" would reasonably be in place? And how would they help?

4) Minions? Minions who will _also_ be unable to sense the team?

5) Totally reasonable, given that the only reason to go after them would be if they were actively DOING something...

6) A roll for what, precisely?

7) Aborts because of WHAT, precisely? Invsible ambush, remember. That said, what exactly would DD do about it when ambushed?

8) Making rolls that are about 14- or better at each step of the way is _easy_. The entangle rolls IS a bit iffy, but if they cleverly wait until after the rampaging MegaVillain actually rampages and uses an Action, it's essentially an unstoppable KO.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Challenge Answered, following the rules in Gary's first post:

 

This homeless street preacher will hear of a supernatural moster, such as Tak, running free in a city, make his way to that city as best he can, and solve the problem. (OK, I'm really bored, and this is silly, but why not):

 

 

33d6 explosion will do 115.5 stun on average. Vs 25 and 3/4, that will do 22 net stun on average to Tak, not enough to stun him. And then after Tak teleports away and recovers, he comes back and annihilates the only person still alive in the city after the carnage. Assuming the debris in the city didn't kill him first.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

1) If they're going to fight, they're going to have to know where each other are in general terms. Beyond that, they can fly around rapidly and home in on the location of the target.

2) That's why there's a huge images power. So they _can't_

3) Pray tell, what "Contingency Plans" would reasonably be in place? And how would they help?

4) Minions? Minions who will _also_ be unable to sense the team?

5) Totally reasonable, given that the only reason to go after them would be if they were actively DOING something...

6) A roll for what, precisely?

7) Aborts because of WHAT, precisely? Invsible ambush, remember. That said, what exactly would DD do about it when ambushed?

8) Making rolls that are about 14- or better at each step of the way is _easy_. The entangle rolls IS a bit iffy, but if they cleverly wait until after the rampaging MegaVillain actually rampages and uses an Action, it's essentially an unstoppable KO.

 

1) Why? According to your rules, Tak could do the same thing and nuke the party long before they reach him.

 

2) Images that don't work against Detect souls or Danger sense.

 

3) Champsguy's death aura for one. Just use your imagination and imagine what a 30 Int dude with a 150 pt vpp can do.

 

4) Minions who can each throw out the big huge area effect death fields. And that's assuming they can't sense the party. Very questionable. Also, many of the minions such as ghosts wouldn't be detected by your party at all and can wreak havoc with them.

 

5) Tak's MO usually involves his minions doing all the work. His pool could easily default into Invisibility and Desolid. Or huge increases in his personal defenses. DD could and would do the same thing.

 

6) Danger sense, Tactics, or a Perception Roll.

 

7) You're assuming that your group ambushes Tak or DD. I'm not granting you that assumption.

 

8) Lots of very questionable assumptions to get to this point.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

33d6 explosion will do 115.5 stun on average. Vs 25 and 3/4' date=' that will do 22 net stun on average to Tak, not enough to stun him. And then after Tak teleports away and recovers, he comes back and annihilates the only person still alive in the city after the carnage. Assuming the debris in the city didn't kill him first. [/quote']

 

You're assuming Tak always har his VPP in Damage Reduction. However, I'm sure we can add gestures and incantations to add a few more D6. Wrath is flying, and he has the life support to survive anything but a direct debris strike.

 

Point optimizing at its silliest.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Hrm.

 

80 Let the Darkness Consume Thee! : 8d6 Energy Blast, NND. Defense: Having committed a purely benevolent act, with no thought of how it may benefit you, in the past day OR Having No Desire to Hurt Any Living Thing.

20 You Cannot Avoid Your Fate: +10 to hit with Energy Blast.

 

Do I even need to provide context?

Or a Large Magic Power Pool?

 

'cause I will if I have to.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

1) Why? According to your rules, Tak could do the same thing and nuke the party long before they reach him.

 

2) Images that don't work against Detect souls or Danger sense.

 

3) Champsguy's death aura for one. Just use your imagination and imagine what a 30 Int dude with a 150 pt vpp can do.

 

4) Minions who can each throw out the big huge area effect death fields. And that's assuming they can't sense the party. Very questionable. Also, many of the minions such as ghosts wouldn't be detected by your party at all and can wreak havoc with them.

 

5) Tak's MO usually involves his minions doing all the work. His pool could easily default into Invisibility and Desolid. Or huge increases in his personal defenses. DD could and would do the same thing.

 

6) Danger sense, Tactics, or a Perception Roll.

 

7) You're assuming that your group ambushes Tak or DD. I'm not granting you that assumption.

 

8) Lots of very questionable assumptions to get to this point.

 

Your challenge said OR Doctor Destroyer, by the way. I notice you're only giving examples for Takofanes.

 

Who, I believe, no character can beat if he is played intelligently, including an exact clone of him.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Things that can go wrong:

 

Dr Destroyer has Radar in his armor (whether the baseline writeup does or not, he's got a VPP).

Dr Destroyer isn't leading the attack on the city. His robot is.

Takofanes was playing with the entrails of a chicken before the battle, and has seen the future. He just knows the heroes are coming.

Dr Destroyer is in the middle of the UN building. When the players enter, the traps he set go off.

Takofanes is walking around with an Invisible Desolid up (it's more regal when attacks simply fly through you).

Dr Destroyer says "Hmm... there are some invisible heroes around here. I guess I will..." BLAM!!! "...blow the Brooklyn Bridge in half and watch as they attempt to save it. Oh, they don't have powers that let them do that..."

Dr Destroyer hits the city with a mind-control ray. Everyone in the city.

Dr Destroyer has a Force Wall up.

Dr Destroyer programs a bomb to explode if he is attacked.

Dr Destroyer has a hologram set up.

Dr Destroyer has already escaped, and returned to his evil lair.

Dr Destroyer has made evil duplicates of the superheroes.

 

There, that's 5 minutes worth of typing telling you why those characters won't win.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Your challenge said OR Doctor Destroyer, by the way. I notice you're only giving examples for Takofanes.

 

Who, I believe, no character can beat if he is played intelligently, including an exact clone of him.

 

With only a little more twinking, Wrath might.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You're assuming Tak always har his VPP in Damage Reduction. However, I'm sure we can add gestures and incantations to add a few more D6. Wrath is flying, and he has the life support to survive anything but a direct debris strike.

 

Point optimizing at its silliest.

 

 

Tak has the 3/4 DR at all times. It's bought straight.

 

I grant though, that you can always pile on limitations to increase the number of dice to the point where it'll work. Of course this dude probably would run into a pack of Tak's minions first (It's unlikely he happens to pick the exact city that Tak would be in) and nuke them. Then Tak either swoops in and nails the lone survivor of the city, or he sends some more minions to do so.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Hrm.

 

80 Let the Darkness Consume Thee! : 8d6 Energy Blast, NND. Defense: Having committed a purely benevolent act, with no thought of how it may benefit you, in the past day OR Having No Desire to Hurt Any Living Thing.

20 You Cannot Avoid Your Fate: +10 to hit with Energy Blast.

 

Do I even need to provide context?

Or a Large Magic Power Pool?

 

'cause I will if I have to.

 

Vs DD, that would be 28 stun on average, or 14 after DR. Vs Tak, it's 7 stun after DR. Not a big deal to either of them.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Your challenge said OR Doctor Destroyer, by the way. I notice you're only giving examples for Takofanes.

 

Who, I believe, no character can beat if he is played intelligently, including an exact clone of him.

 

 

What Champsguy said. A dude with a 150 pt multipower plus a 120 pt multipower plus a 90 pt VPP plus gobs of CV and defenses plus limitless followers, vehicles, and bases plus Tactics 16- is simply not going to worry about a few 350 pters.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

One thing to point out after reading the combinition of powerbuilding and tactical theorizing that's going on here...

 

I've always been leary of characters that have big VPPs on top of a bunch of other stuff. It's one thing if a character has a big VPP and that's his major power. Also, the bigger the VPP is, the more limited I'd like to see it be.

 

I don't have CKC with me, and I don't remember how much of Takofanes is in his VPP, and how much isn't.

 

Dr Skullface is a horribly abusive build, based on more frameworks than a photo gallery and more points than a Colts - Chiefs game.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Tak has the 3/4 DR at all times. It's bought straight.

 

I grant though, that you can always pile on limitations to increase the number of dice to the point where it'll work. Of course this dude probably would run into a pack of Tak's minions first (It's unlikely he happens to pick the exact city that Tak would be in) and nuke them. Then Tak either swoops in and nails the lone survivor of the city, or he sends some more minions to do so.

 

Tak probably can't percieve him and does not know he's coming unless he's within direct sight range (check the invis combo, and megascale on the explosion), and the minions are no problem; Wrath has plenty of time to explode before they could get to him (check his detect).

 

No point to this, and it would be impossible save that your set of conditions missed out on naming an active point cap.