Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Tak probably can't percieve him and does not know he's coming unless he's within direct sight range (check the invis combo, and megascale on the explosion), and the minions are no problem; Wrath has plenty of time to explode before they could get to him (check his detect). No point to this, and it would be impossible save that your set of conditions missed out on naming an active point cap. I'm merely pointing out that based on how you described his character, he would unleash the explosion on the first pack of undead or demons that he sees. That would obviously nuke the city he's in, and then Tak or his undead/demonic minions would annihilate the lone survivor of the city. Anyway, didn't I add Megascale to my list of conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Guys, please don't take this the wrong way, but these threads about Takofanes or Dr Skullface in a fight always end up sounding like a bunch of little kids arguing over who would win a fight between their favorite cartoon whatevers. "Yeah, well, Captain Blasto would shoot him with his blastocannon!" "Nuh-uh, Blasto is a stupid-head, and Amazing Guy would punch him in the face!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'll tell you what. You play your dudes and I'll play Takofanes in an arena duel. Assuming no ambush on either side. Anyone care to take a bet on who'll win? I'll put 20 XP down on Takofanes, with a bonus +5 if Tak remembers that mental awareness comes with mental powers, so he can haul out the 30d6 MC even if he *is* blinded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? To each their own' date=' to own their each...[/quote'] Fair enough. Its just I really don't see the point to using messy as hell ECs rather than just adding about 100-200 more points base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Personal prejudice much? Just because you're a points tightwad who thinks points are more important than concept doesn't mean the rest of us are. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik. The first thing I'd do if I put Takofanes or Destroyer into my gameworld is break them down, build them up, and give them access to the same construction rules the PCs are built on. *Your* world is the one where everyone uses questionable or outright illegal ECs to up their power levels for the same point value and *I'M* the "tightwad who thinks points are more important than concept"?! Chutzpah, much?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'm merely pointing out that based on how you described his character, he would unleash the explosion on the first pack of undead or demons that he sees. That would obviously nuke the city he's in, and then Tak or his undead/demonic minions would annihilate the lone survivor of the city. Anyway, didn't I add Megascale to my list of conditions? Did you? Darn! Well, you didn't remember transdimensional. He'll use that. (they'll have to find him, and that boom is 0 End, so they'll take a few more as they're looking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Guys, we're on PAGE 29. There are obviously a number of raw nerves exposed here. Page 29, guys... Can't we just agree that characters built on points totals other than the ones we use, or in styles other than the ones we favour are abusive and wrong, and should be excommunicated from the superhero community? Page 29... I think we already *have* agreed on that, we just haven't finished the war to excommunicate, expel, and/or execute the offenders yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Dude, I wouldn't take that bet with Doctor Destroyer and the Harbinger of Justice added to my side. These guys can sneak up on big T, and hit him so hard he never does anything relevant again... while never actually giving him the option to notice they're there. Exactly how are they sneaking up on someone with Danger Sense Umpteen- and Detect Everything Important Umpteen-?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? What Champsguy said. A dude with a 150 pt multipower plus a 120 pt multipower plus a 90 pt VPP plus gobs of CV and defenses plus limitless followers' date=' vehicles, and bases plus Tactics 16- is simply not going to worry about a few 350 pters.[/quote'] So why would he have contingency plans in place, as Champsguy provided a long list of? After all, they're just 350 pt characters... Even if this precise build doesn't work, there are countless ways to build them so as to let them defeat numerically superior foes. Indeed, as I noted in the thread, there should be two more members of the team, who I couldn't figure out what they needed to do.... and who could quite easily patch every hole in the attack plan pointed out so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Incidently, if 450+ active point attacks are no threat to a Villain, maybe it's the villain write up that has a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? There's a small power pool on the last character. And it may well be in it's own sense group, but that doesn't help. Small power pool is big enough to fit the one type of darkness *if* its configured beforehand. However,I'm not sure whether it could stick the thing on Tak, seeing as ( IIRC ), that requires UAA. In anycase, it definitely doesn't have the points to do so against both the Detect and Danger Sense and Mental Awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Did you? Darn! Well, you didn't remember transdimensional. He'll use that. (they'll have to find him, and that boom is 0 End, so they'll take a few more as they're looking) Crunch all you want, we'll make more. This is very silly, but fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'd just like certain people on this thread to remember that there was a reason one of us was dubbed "The Munchkin King", and that all these nasty little powers have been seen before. Really, I'm the guy who built "100D6 RKA Man" on 375 points in 4th Edition. I know how to blow people up. And I also know that Dr D or Tako Grande would whip butt on one-trick ponies like we have here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Uhm... and big T is paranoid enough to abort just because he might get attacked? Oookay... I believe Danger Sense is also a sense vulnerable to being invisible to. Costs points which your guys don't have. And no, he probably wouldn't abort to Desolid or Teleport. He probably would abort to the Uber Force Wall, given that if he weren't faced with a serious threat, *it wouldn't register on the danger sense*. ( alternatively, he might just throw out an Explosion or two ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Anyway. They answer your challenge. They're 350, they have no hideous brokenness, and they represent a significant danger to The Big Two. And I have two more members to add (potentially) who can patch any holes in the team strategy. There is no need for higher powered heroes. Except for one problem: your team is custom designed to fight megavillains, rather than being actual interesting and "organic," for lack of a better term, characters. IOW, they are character that are unlikely in the extreme to exist in any superhero universe, because super heroes simple don't come into existence that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Vs DD' date=' that would be 28 stun on average, or 14 after DR. Vs Tak, it's 7 stun after DR. Not a big deal to either of them.[/quote'] For the first time ever, WhammeWhamme actually reads the Damage Reduction rules to the end... My gawd. They DO affect NND's. Oops. Oh well. Just need about five or six copies of the character then. That shouldn't be too hard. Or just put autofire on that puppy. And take the appropriate invisiblities, of course. 24 Avatar of Justice: Elemental Control, Only in Hero Identity a72 Consumed by their own Darkness: 8d6 Energy Blast, NND, 1/2 Endurance Cost, Autofire b24 Divine Purpose: 20/20 Force Field, 0 Endurance Cost c24 Ghostly Avenger: Desolidification, 0 Endurance Cost d24 Seek the Guilty: 15" Flight, 0 Endurance Cost, x16 Noncombat Multiple e31 Unseen, Unheard... The Knife in the Dark: Invisibility to Sight Group, Hearing Group, Danger Sense and Mystic Sense Groups, No Fringe, 0 Endurance Cost, Not vs those immune to NND (-1/2) 30 Justice Cannot Be Deterred: +75 Presence, Defensive Only, Only in Hero Identity, Linked to Force Field 40 The Darkness is Obvious: Sense: Evil, Targeting, Ranged, Discriminatory, 360 Degrees === 269 (plus some stats and, ooh... OCV 13 should do nicely) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? So why would he have contingency plans in place, as Champsguy provided a long list of? After all, they're just 350 pt characters... Even if this precise build doesn't work, there are countless ways to build them so as to let them defeat numerically superior foes. Indeed, as I noted in the thread, there should be two more members of the team, who I couldn't figure out what they needed to do.... and who could quite easily patch every hole in the attack plan pointed out so far. That's the whole point of contingency plans. You plan so as to never be surprised. Hence a Tactics 16- skill. It's a staple of master villain types to have contingency plans. Dr. Doom whom DD is modeled on has loads of them for virtually every contingency imaginable. It's silly to pretend that DD has any fewer plans than Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? So why would he have contingency plans in place, as Champsguy provided a long list of? After all, they're just 350 pt characters... Even if this precise build doesn't work, there are countless ways to build them so as to let them defeat numerically superior foes. Indeed, as I noted in the thread, there should be two more members of the team, who I couldn't figure out what they needed to do.... and who could quite easily patch every hole in the attack plan pointed out so far. Why would he have contingency plans? I wasn't even listing real contingency plans. I was listing schemes. He sends a robot because he's lazy, and doesn't want to have to do it himself. He uses a mind control ray on everyone in the city, because that's how he's gonna take over. He sets up traps in the UN because it's no fun to just blast heroes with his 10D6 RKA. Takofanes has an invisible desolid up because it's cool. It freaks the norms when they shoot at you and it looks like you're a spirit. These weren't plans to counter the good guys. These were just things that could go wrong for the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'll put 20 XP down on Takofanes' date=' with a bonus +5 if Tak remembers that mental awareness comes with mental powers, so he can haul out the 30d6 MC even if he *is* blinded.[/quote'] Uhm, no. Mental Awareness does NOT give the ability to attack. At least, not unless someone ELSE is using Mental Powers (which this team does NOT do). Oh, and that small spells power pool on the last character would generally be set to something that baffles any other senses the target might have working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? You're assuming Tak always har his VPP in Damage Reduction. However, I'm sure we can add gestures and incantations to add a few more D6. Wrath is flying, and he has the life support to survive anything but a direct debris strike. Point optimizing at its silliest. He doesn't need to. His 75% DR is a separate power, on all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Tak has the 3/4 DR at all times. It's bought straight. I grant though, that you can always pile on limitations to increase the number of dice to the point where it'll work. Of course this dude probably would run into a pack of Tak's minions first (It's unlikely he happens to pick the exact city that Tak would be in) and nuke them. Then Tak either swoops in and nails the lone survivor of the city, or he sends some more minions to do so. And then animates as undead all those people Wrath just obligingly killed for him. Not that Takofanes would be grateful, but he might raise Wrath as undead slave commander of that city worth of undead, as a mocking act of "thanks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Costs points which your guys don't have. And no, he probably wouldn't abort to Desolid or Teleport. He probably would abort to the Uber Force Wall, given that if he weren't faced with a serious threat, *it wouldn't register on the danger sense*. ( alternatively, he might just throw out an Explosion or two ) To do anything, he has to to abort. So no, he can't throw out an explosion... Abort to Force Wall is interesting. Exactly how 'Uber' is it? ('cause a noncombat movethrough by the jet would probably pop it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? For the first time ever, WhammeWhamme actually reads the Damage Reduction rules to the end... My gawd. They DO affect NND's. Oops. Oh well. Just need about five or six copies of the character then. That shouldn't be too hard. Or just put autofire on that puppy. And take the appropriate invisiblities, of course. 24 Avatar of Justice: Elemental Control, Only in Hero Identity a72 Consumed by their own Darkness: 8d6 Energy Blast, NND, 1/2 Endurance Cost, Autofire b24 Divine Purpose: 20/20 Force Field, 0 Endurance Cost c24 Ghostly Avenger: Desolidification, 0 Endurance Cost d24 Seek the Guilty: 15" Flight, 0 Endurance Cost, x16 Noncombat Multiple e31 Unseen, Unheard... The Knife in the Dark: Invisibility to Sight Group, Hearing Group, Danger Sense and Mystic Sense Groups, No Fringe, 0 Endurance Cost, Not vs those immune to NND (-1/2) 30 Justice Cannot Be Deterred: +75 Presence, Defensive Only, Only in Hero Identity, Linked to Force Field 40 The Darkness is Obvious: Sense: Evil, Targeting, Ranged, Discriminatory, 360 Degrees === 269 (plus some stats and, ooh... OCV 13 should do nicely) The autofire NND is 160 active points, and costs 104 net points. And the FF and Desolid don't have invisible power effects, so it renders the invis completely useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? One thing to point out after reading the combinition of powerbuilding and tactical theorizing that's going on here... I've always been leary of characters that have big VPPs on top of a bunch of other stuff. It's one thing if a character has a big VPP and that's his major power. Also, the bigger the VPP is, the more limited I'd like to see it be. I don't have CKC with me, and I don't remember how much of Takofanes is in his VPP, and how much isn't. Dr Skullface is a horribly abusive build, based on more frameworks than a photo gallery and more points than a Colts - Chiefs game. Takofanes has a 150 point cosmic VPP as his main weapon. Aside from that, he has a couple undead creation/control powers outside, and his Scepter ( which IIRC, is 135 active points, but part of that is making everything 0 END, so the powers themselves are relatively minor ). As for Dr D, keep in mind, his VPP is *not* cosmic, or even changeable in combat. It can only be reconfigured at his bases or labs, so whatever he comes with the VPP containing is it for the fight. ( me, if I were configuring it, I'd include some one-shot escape trick, some form of healing or stun aid, special defenses against any particular powers that are expected of the enemy, and special weapons targetting weaknesses of the enemies, in that order. After all, Dr D doesn't really need more normal offensive firepower ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? And the FF and Desolid don't have invisible power effects, so it renders the invis completely useless. Wait. A character can be Invisible w/ No Fringe, and as soon as he turns on his Force Field, everyone can see him? Where does it say that? Not that I don't believe you, but up until now I've missed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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