Schmucks?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

that's a suprising number of plot gimmes they need there' date=' barring the statistics discussion.[/quote']

 

The only "gimme" is finding out he's out there... which is something that is rather key to ANYONE beating ANYONE.

 

The rest is within their capabilities - they _make_ it happen, it doesn't just drop into their lap.

[Vondy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I don't know what thread that is. I'm just making the point that Chuckg said Takofanes can't do something because it's not on his character sheet' date=' but then turns around and talks about a "disadvantage" the character supposedly has which is also not on his character sheet. You can't have it both ways. Either the character sheet reflects the character 100% or there is room for GM fudging.[/quote']

 

Others also tried to convey this point to him as well in one of the most ignomious gaming threads in hero history - the themes and arguments in this thread are haunting echoes of the past....

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11399&highlight=Doctor

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

A few threads, or a few pages on this thread?

 

There's so much posting on this thread that I might have read what you're refering to, and I'm just not linking it up with this exchange.

 

Fair enough. A short synopsis; whith a villain like Tak, who has a massive VPP and a goal he could achieve without leaving the crypt, any victory the heroes achieve comes from the GM or Author intentionally holding Tak back to let the players win. Adding more and higher powered heroes to the CU will not help explain why Tak has not already killed all of humanity, because they just could not stop him (note: He could be destroyed, but not before killing of non-Super humaity, if he were actually trying to). Since any solution is a GM/Author hand wave anyway with this kind of character, I don't see pointing to him as a useful argument for adding high powered heroes to the game world.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

More importantly' date=' his sanity has taken a serious dive compared to his pinaccle. Something about 70 millenia of solitary confinement. . .[/quote']

I would point out that CKC does not say that Takofanes is insane. This is another one of those things players are reading into the character. I honestly feel that most people who know Takofanes really do see him as a mystic Grond, meaning they think he is some ultra-powerful but mindless mystical force. This is not the case. Takofanes is a true Master Villain in the same vein as Dr. Destroyer, but his motivations are to gain mystical power, supposedly to get back to his former levels. People are of no interest to him as anything other than undead servitors.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Others also tried to convey this point to him as well in one of the most ignomious gaming threads in hero history - the themes and arguments in this thread are haunting echoes of the past....

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11399&highlight=Doctor

Interestign to look at. I will read all of this when I have time. I can see where a thread like that could go sideways, just as this one has. Those "who can beat who" threads never go smoothly.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The only "gimme" is finding out he's out there... which is something that is rather key to ANYONE beating ANYONE.

 

The rest is within their capabilities - they _make_ it happen, it doesn't just drop into their lap.

 

Yeah, but finding out where someone is is often the toughest point in fighting them, especially if you are trying to hit them when they *aren't* prepared to take on attackers.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Yeah' date=' but finding out where someone is is often the toughest point in fighting them, especially if you are trying to hit them when they *aren't* prepared to take on attackers.[/quote']

 

Note cosmic power pool.

 

As soon as he's aware he needs to find DD, he'll be able to find him.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

and certainly Destroyer, with all the people always looking for him to bring him down, doesn't have anything like countermeasures on that kind of deal, nor are his base's security anything but laughably penetrated by all comers.

 

Those are plot gimmes, or uses of powers in laughably against what's generally considered fair and allowable in the games sorts of ways.

 

What, does he use his power pool to create a power called auto sense the location of Doc Destroyer?

 

Aren't you the person who decries the "broken" uses of Takofanes' power pool?

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I would like to point out two things that were, as near as I can tell, completely overlooked:

 

1) It is not a "GM's Call" to say that knowledge of the Modern World is not on Takofanes' character sheet.

 

Because, looking at his character sheet, there are absolutely no KS skills not related to the Turakian age or black sorcery on it.

 

None. Zip. Zero.

 

And as for his geographical knowledge... he doesn't even /have/ Area Knowledges.

 

For the record, here is Takofanes' complete skill list:

 

Deduction, 15-

Power: Magic, 30-

Spell Research (magical version of Inventor), 17-

WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missle Weapons

 

Scholar

 

KS: Arcane & Occult Lore, 25-

KS: Demonology, 25-

KS: Necromancy, 30-

KS: Turakian Age History, 20-

KS: Turakian Theurgy, 25-

 

-- 'Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks', page 31

 

That's it.

 

Furthermore, it is likewise /not a DM call to say that Takofanes has Fantasy Everyman skills, not Modern Everyman skills -- that's merely applying the rules, as written.

 

So, since he does not have any KS or AK's relating to the modern world via his Everyman Skills, and he does not have any KS or AK's relating to the modern world that he's bought and paid for -- therefore, he does not have any KS'es or AK's relating to the modern world.

 

Period.

 

 

 

2) At no point did I say that Takofanes was unable to summon individual demons. AAMOF, I specifically said that he still /could/ do so, up to the #'s any accomplished black occultist in the modern world (such as Demonologist or Giacomo Sylvestri or Luther Black) could do.

 

What he *can't* do is summon the entire legions of the Netherworld all at once, as the Divine Ban (mentioned in Mystic World, and /not/ a GM call) would prevent that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

His Demons are not under the control of the descending Hierarchy. Check the write up.

 

The only thing that write-up says is that their physical appearances follow Turakian ideals, not Christian ones.

 

Of course, since Mystic World specifically mentions that the Netherworld is *NOT* confined to emulating merely the Christian demons, but is far far older than the concept of Christianity, you are yet again wrong.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

(snip)

 

1) It is not a "GM's Call" to say that knowledge of the Modern World is not on Takofanes' character sheet.

 

Well, everything is a GM call - including using the rules as printed.

 

Not dismissing your point...just striking a blow for GMs everywhere!

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Deduction 15- (19- with 4 overall levels) will get you pretty far.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

and certainly Destroyer, with all the people always looking for him to bring him down, doesn't have anything like countermeasures on that kind of deal, nor are his base's security anything but laughably penetrated by all comers.

 

Those are plot gimmes, or uses of powers in laughably against what's generally considered fair and allowable in the games sorts of ways.

 

What, does he use his power pool to create a power called auto sense the location of Doc Destroyer?

 

Aren't you the person who decries the "broken" uses of Takofanes' power pool?

 

"I can sense him... yes! That way lies the gravest threat to the world..." is actually a very fitting power.

 

Cosmic level senses FIT for cosmic powered beings... If you know where he has been, perhaps retrocognition could track him down. There will be a way. The way will vary.

 

 

 

And I didn't argue against the broken uses of TF's power pool (except to note that if used to it's full extent, NO ONE could stand up to him, so it doesn't matter whether they're 350pts or 3500 pts...). I just argued against illogical and/or illegal uses. (If he is busy being an Evil Demigod, he will have it set to Evil Demigod type uses...)

 

I also argued against an incredibly tough and arrogant immortal from panicking at the first sign of danger and immediately stopping whatever he was doing to avoid getting hurt... which has nothing to do with whether it was in his power pool, but whether it was in his character.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

What he *can't* do is summon the entire legions of the Netherworld all at once' date=' as the Divine Ban (mentioned in Mystic World, and /not/ a GM call) would prevent that.[/quote']

 

Whether or not the Divine Ban would prevent him is also a GM's call.

 

As to his skills and knowledge of the modern world, one quick decision by the GM that 17 years was enough to get rid of any culture shock for our INT 30 "hero" takes care of that. Or eating someones brain. Or making a modern human into a higher type of undead slave and asking some questions. Whatever.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The only thing that write-up says is that their physical appearances follow Turakian ideals, not Christian ones.

 

Of course, since Mystic World specifically mentions that the Netherworld is *NOT* confined to emulating merely the Christian demons, but is far far older than the concept of Christianity, you are yet again wrong.

 

Gosh Chuckg, you're getting all upset. Have you considered a nice cocoa and a lie down?

 

Hint: You've just made a GMs call that the Descending Hierarchy in your campaign both controls the much older Turakian demons and would prevent Tak from calling letting those demos loose on humanity, Once again, you've handed a GM's fiat victory to your heroes.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

This is getting to be a precise repeat of the Takofanes/Dr. D debate way back.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

This is getting to be a precise repeat of the Takofanes/Dr. D debate way back.

 

Old flame wars never die.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Old flame wars never die.

They don't even fade away or burn out!

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

> Hint: You've just made a GMs call that the Descending Hierarchy in

> your campaign both controls the much older Turakian demons

 

Mystic World says that all the demons of humanity, all relgious traditions, are supplied by the Netherworld. The only things that come from Outside are the servitors of Dimension Lords like Tyrannon and Skarn, and the beasts of the Qlippoth.

 

What you call a "DM's Call", I call "reading the relevant source material and paying attention".

 

> and would prevent Tak from calling letting those demons loose on humanity,

 

See the section of the 'Mystic World' as regards the Divine Ban.

 

And until then, don't think that the ability to crack wise and do a funny tap routine will hide when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 point characters are schmucks.

 

I will say this:

 

There's a big difference between applying reasonable limits to VPP use and just hand-waving away big holes in plots.

 

The reason Takofanes hasn't used his VPP to wipe out all life on Earth with some Megascaled power construct is because I don't let anybody with a VPP do that sort of thing. Otherwise a guy with a 40 point VPP can destroy the world. I know a guy who used to go around talking about how he could build God on 100 points. This is no different.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 point characters are schmucks.

 

I will say this:

 

There's a big difference between applying reasonable limits to VPP use and just hand-waving away big holes in plots.

 

The reason Takofanes hasn't used his VPP to wipe out all life on Earth with some Megascaled power construct is because I don't let anybody with a VPP do that sort of thing. Otherwise a guy with a 40 point VPP can destroy the world. I know a guy who used to go around talking about how he could build God on 100 points. This is no different.

 

Yep. Killing All Life On Earth is one of those spells that, if possible at all, requires N ultrarare mystic components, information from at least one lost tome of lore, and can only be performed at a specific point along specific ley lines when the stars are right. . .

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The reason Takofanes hasn't used his VPP to wipe out all life on Earth with some Megascaled power construct is because I don't let anybody with a VPP do that sort of thing. Otherwise a guy with a 40 point VPP can destroy the world.

 

In other words, you make GM's calls to push the campaign the way you want it to go, in exactly the same way that the authors of the CU have made Authors' calls to keep the meta-story running the way they wanted it to go.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

See the section of the 'Mystic World' as regards the Divine Ban.

 

And until then, don't think that the ability to crack wise and do a funny tap routine will hide when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Chuck, getting personal just makes you look like you're taking your hobby way too seriously.

 

As to the Divine Ban, it blocks Gods from walking the Earth, and keeps Spirits' visits short. Claiming that this would hold off a Demonic Invasion is a GMs call that you are making.

 

And the Ban itself? That's an Author's call.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

In other words' date=' you make GM's calls to push the campaign the way you want it to go, in exactly the same way that the authors of the CU have made Authors' calls to keep the meta-story running the way they wanted it to go.[/quote']

 

I think there's a BIG difference in disallowing abusive power constructs, and making up reasons that heroes were able to magically stop Dr Destroyer, despite the fact that they can hardly put Stun on him.

 

EVERYTHING is a GM call. It's a GM call for me to say that the sun doesn't suddenly go supernova. You're doing lots of talking, but you're not really saying anything. I don't think that anyone would disagree that some GM calls have to be made, but I also don't think that people would say that all GM calls are the same.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Fair enough. A short synopsis; whith a villain like Tak, who has a massive VPP and a goal he could achieve without leaving the crypt, any victory the heroes achieve comes from the GM or Author intentionally holding Tak back to let the players win. Adding more and higher powered heroes to the CU will not help explain why Tak has not already killed all of humanity, because they just could not stop him (note: He could be destroyed, but not before killing of non-Super humaity, if he were actually trying to). Since any solution is a GM/Author hand wave anyway with this kind of character, I don't see pointing to him as a useful argument for adding high powered heroes to the game world.

 

One of the problems with the HERO system, a problem that is glaringly obvious with large VPPs, is that it leads people to believe that anything that can be done with a certain number of points is possible for any character with access to that number of points.

 

It's no more unfairly "holding Tak back" to limit what he can do with his spells than it is to limit what a player can add on to his PC over time because of that PC's concept.

 

The mechanical system in HERO exists to emulate effects -- ideas first, mechanical application second. The last thing to happen when creating anything using the HERO system is the actual mechanical construction. The setting should exist, and the character should be developed, before a single point is spent. That includes Takofanes. The limitations of magic and the supernatural were already set, and Takofanes has to opperate within those limits the same way every other character does. The limits of Takofane's magic should have been established before his VPP was ever written up.

 

Please explain to me how to write up the abilities of a powerful spellcaster, and still satisfy the desire some people express to have all the bounds of a character's capabilities firmly established mechanically.