Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

[JMHammer]

Since this isn't a rules question, I didn't post it in the rules question forum. However, while this is directed to Steve Long, I would welcome reasoned responses from anyone.

 

In reference to this thread:

Why is the Ranged modifier acceptable for Hand-to-Hand Killing Attacks but not for Hand Attacks? Both Powers are for melee damage, the most significant difference between them being that one is Killing Damage and the other is Normal Damage.

 

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and can't see the logic of this interpretation.

 

Thanks in advance,

John H

[Lightray]

Think of HA as an Energy Blast with a -1/2 No Range limitation applied. Adding a Ranged advantage to HA makes no sense, since the -1/2 Hand-to-Hand Attack limitation already encompasses the "no range".

 

Remove the -1/2 limitation, and you've essentially got an Energy Blast.

 

HKA, however, has no inherent limitation. So you're not really comparing apples to apples by comparing HKA (no limitation) to HA (limitation).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

Steve seldom answers questions of design philosophy or why something was done a certain way.

 

Basically what you're looking for is a ranged normal attack to which Strength adds damage, correct? If you want to do it in your game, either you're the GM or you can ask your GM. I advise going that route.

[Lightray]

Also:

 

Q: Can a character apply the Ranged Advantage to an HA, thus creating an attack usable at Range to which he can add his STR?

 

 

A: No. Once he adds the Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation, he’s signifying that the attack can’t be used at Range. Logically, the two Modifiers simply don’t mix.

 

To build such an attack, buy Energy Blast, with dice equal to the amount of damage you think the thrown weapon should do, and define the special effect as “throwing a weapon and using high STR to make it do more damage than it ordinarily would.†If you want to use the weapon in HTH Combat as well, buy the weapon as a Multipower — one slot with an HA, one slot with an EB, 1 Recoverable Charge, Lockout (can’t use other slot until Charge is recovered).

 

Another possibility would be to use the Throwing rules. Buy the club (or other weapon) has an HA, Focus. The character could then throw the object (the Focus) the same way he could any other object, doing damage equal to his STR dice or the DEF+BODY of the object, whichever was less.

 

One exception to this general rule are throwable HTH weapons in books like Fantasy Hero.

wow. that didn't take nearly as long to find as i'd expected.

[Sociotard]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

What the . . .

 

And I thought I knew the Hero System. Here's one thought as to why though. Building an HA is +5 str, only to do damage (-somthing). Ranged is a +1/2 advantage. This all means it would be cheaper to buy a ranged HA than a EB with STR adds to damage, going back to the old rule that you can't use one power to make a cheaper version of another power.

 

*edit* dang my slow fingers! I didn't post in time!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

Think of HA as an Energy Blast with a -1/2 No Range limitation applied. Adding a Ranged advantage to HA makes no sense' date=' since the -1/2 Hand-to-Hand Attack limitation already encompasses the "no range".[/quote']

 

No, don't think of it like that. Think of it as STR with a -1/2 Only For Damage Limitation.

 

[Homer Simpson]Stupid 1-point STR.[/Homer Simpson]

[Lightray]

No' date=' don't think of it like that. Think of it as STR with a -1/2 Only For Damage Limitation.[/quote']

ahem.

 

"A: No. Once he adds the Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation, he’s signifying that the attack can’t be used at Range. Logically, the two Modifiers simply don’t mix."

 

neener-neener.

 

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

ahem.

 

"A: No. Once he adds the Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation, he’s signifying that the attack can’t be used at Range. Logically, the two Modifiers simply don’t mix."

 

neener-neener.

 

5E page 119, second column, second paragraph: "This Limitation signifies that the HA damage only works if it adds to a character's damage dice based on STR (in essence, HA is just a Limited form of STR). It cannot function on its own, nor does it add to a character's STR in any other way or provide any figured characteristics"

 

According to the rulebook, archer is essentially correct. According to the rules FAQ, you are essentially correct. Maybe you're both correct.

[Lightray]

pshaw. Both correct? Now where would be the fun in that?

 

 

drat. missed a Smiley opportunity. must go back and edit...

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

All this time, at least since FREd came out, I've been seeing the Hand-To-Hand Attack as its own special Power and Limitation, the latter applying to the former to indicate that it only has what STR and Energy Blast have in common. I'd even been considering if there'd be some way to have a Hand-To-Hand Attack without the Limitation (allowing such things as Spreading, and so forth).

[Steve Long]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

JMHammer asked me to post, so voila, here I am.

 

As Archer pointed out, generally I don't answer rules design and philosophy questions, for a whole bunch of reasons. The Q&A from the Rules FAQ that Lightray posted offers about as much explanation of the situation as I think is necessary.

[Frenchman]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

I don't like the stated reason for the -1/2 limitation on HA. (this doesn't mean I don't think it should be there, but I'll touch on that in a bit)

The way it seems to me in the book is overly complicated.

If it's because it is a no range attack, then HKA should get it, but it doesn't.

The reasoning that I believe is behind the RKA and HKA costs (that being ranged is equal to being able to add STR to damage) seems reasonable and logical to me.

It would seem reasonable and logical if there was a similar construct for normal-damage attacks, but there isn't. Saying that HA is STR, only to do damage is like saying HKA is STR, only to do damage against resistant defenses. It just sounds overly complicated.

My personal interpretation (and the house rule I use) is that the -1/2 limitation on HA represents the fact that HA isn't as effective at doing damage as HKA. Because Energy Blasts suffer from this same setback, I allow EBs to take the same -1/2 limitation.

This is just the way I see things (as they relate to EBs, HAs, and KAs), and it makes sense to me, if not anyone else. I think that adding ranged to an HA is no more broken than adding ranged to an HKA, as long as the GM steps in to prevent a character buying, for example, a 'fire blast' on his 50-STR brick as a 1d6 HA, Ranged. Myself, I use the rules pertaining to doubling DCs to prevent a 1d6 HA (or a 1 pip HKA) from doing obscene amounts of 'free' damage.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

I must agree I have never understood the double standard HA gets in this matter. Personaly I understand from a Game balance why you might want it this way, but would prefer if HKA was under the same limitation.

 

However in all duality I have never had a problem letting someone have HA Ranged (except the guy who insisted one die with range let him use his whole str ranged)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

I must agree I have never understood the double standard HA gets in this matter. Personaly I understand from a Game balance why you might want it this way, but would prefer if HKA was under the same limitation.

 

It is because of the 5 points per d6 rule, and the fact that 5 STR, Only For Damage, costs less than 5 points, and because STR costs 1 per point.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

There's a difference between HKA and HA that no one has mentioned yet. You add your STR to HKA, but you add HA to your STR. Therefore, keeping in mind that Ranged STR is explicitly forbidden, this ruling makes perfect sense.

 

The restrictions on the base power are what matter. With HKA+STR, HKA is the base power, and HKA isn't forbidden from being Ranged. With STR+HA, STR is the base power, and STR is forbidden from being Ranged.

 

If it helps, pretend that the bit in the Adding Damage section, where it talks about adding HAs with Advantages to STR, says that (in addition to Invisible Power Effects), Ranged is another Advantage that must be applied to STR in order for the Advantage to work with HA. And since Ranged can't be applied to STR, problem solved.

[Rapier]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

There's a difference between HKA and HA that no one has mentioned yet. You add your STR to HKA, but you add HA to your STR. Therefore, keeping in mind that Ranged STR is explicitly forbidden, this ruling makes perfect sense.

 

The restrictions on the base power are what matter. With HKA+STR, HKA is the base power, and HKA isn't forbidden from being Ranged. With STR+HA, STR is the base power, and STR is forbidden from being Ranged.

Wow. That deserves a Rep but it's too soon. Now that you explained it like that (which makes PERFECT sense) it all clicks into place. This also clears up the whole STR at range is Stretching argument too. It also expalins something I've never really considered before...the way that HA is always listed as +xd6 HA and HKA are always listed straight out.

 

With these insights, it's almost like you know someone.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

It is because of the 5 points per d6 rule' date=' and the fact that 5 STR, Only For Damage, costs less than 5 points, and because STR costs 1 per point.[/quote']

 

I understand the 5=1 DC, my quiestion is why are you allowed to apply range to HKA instead of having to jump the same hoop for throwing knives you have to for throwing clubs?

 

I really don't care how it is officialy done but would prefer that they are consistent (HA & HKA can not have range, or HA & HKA can have range; Not HA cannot have range but HKA can).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

I understand the 5=1 DC, my quiestion is why are you allowed to apply range to HKA instead of having to jump the same hoop for throwing knives you have to for throwing clubs?

 

I really don't care how it is officialy done but would prefer that they are consistent (HA & HKA can not have range, or HA & HKA can have range; Not HA cannot have range but HKA can).

 

Ok. The long answer is probably one of several reasons:

 

1. HKA has been around forever, and has worked pretty much the same way forever, but HA only appeared in 4th, and has only existed in its present form in 5th. It hasn't had as much time as some of the other Powers to really develop a good working methodology.

 

2. Because the cost structure is different for HA than it is for HKA; it's an exception to several rules, and has a lower real cost than the equivalent.

 

3. Because it's based on STR rather than on EB, and because Ranged STR is a no-no.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

My take is that strength costs very little for what it does: adds to secondary characteristics, lets you lift and throw stuff, causes damage in combat, whatever.

 

Now, I know what FRED says (hey, Steve, can we have a pet name for 5ER too? Huh?) but you're better off thinking of HA as EB less range (-1/2) with the advantage Adds Strength (+1/2). Which means that the cost is wrong, but there is no problem adding range to throw a concussive weapon. EB and HA should both be 5 points per 1d6, just like RKA and HKA are 15 points per 1d6.

 

HKA vs RKA is ranged vs Adds Strength. HA vs EB should be exactly the same, and if you can make it illegal in the rules to add range to strength, you can make it illegal to buy strength just to add (direct) damage - strength is already useful enough as it is (I'd probably still allow you to buy strength to use in grabs and escapes - there is no other mechanism to do it - but NOT to cause damage directly). Do damage with a power that is designed to do damage. That's a fix I'd like to see.

 

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT STRENGTH IS TOO CHEAP, I AM ARGUING THAT AS IT IS SO USEFUL, IT IS PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE TO LIMIT THE WAYS IN WHICH IT IS (AB)USED.

 

I imagine that the reason it is not done this way is because it would then cost as much for +1d6 HA as +1d6 STR, and so everyone would buy the STR as you get more utility from it. Now I'm still naïve enough to think that some people will go for concept over powergaming. I mean, who are we kidding anyway: you want to use strength at range, you pick up a rock and throw it, it does STR damage to what it hits (subject to its DEF+BODY total...).

 

What is the solution? I dunno, I just play the game, but it may involve making EB cheaper IN EFFECT (assuming the cost of STR is set in stone...). Do it this way:

 

EB or HA come under the same power: Normal Attack with a cost of 5 points per 1d6 BUT are considered to INCLUDE a +1/2 advantage already, either ranged or adds strength (i.e. the base cost is 3 1/3, but don't tell anyone - it'll freak them out). WHY? Well, to, for instance make a 6d6 EB armour piercing and 0 END would cost (30 (x+1)) = 60. To do it with 'NA' would cost (20 (x+1.5)) = 50. Over complicated, but I'm trying to fit a round peg into a blue picture frame. Or something.

 

To summarise: it doesn't make sense, but you have to live with it.

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

Ok. The long answer is probably one of several reasons:

 

1. HKA has been around forever, and has worked pretty much the same way forever, but HA only appeared in 4th, and has only existed in its present form in 5th. It hasn't had as much time as some of the other Powers to really develop a good working methodology.

 

2. Because the cost structure is different for HA than it is for HKA; it's an exception to several rules, and has a lower real cost than the equivalent.

 

3. Because it's based on STR rather than on EB, and because Ranged STR is a no-no.

 

 

Archer: Thank you for your well reasoned thoughts. I agree that this is probably a good chunk of why. Having said that I would still like to have a consistant method...

[JmOz]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

My take is that strength costs very little for what it does: adds to secondary characteristics, lets you lift and throw stuff, causes damage in combat, whatever.

 

Now, I know what FRED says (hey, Steve, can we have a pet name for 5ER too? Huh?) but you're better off thinking of HA as EB less range (-1/2) with the advantage Adds Strength (+1/2). Which means that the cost is wrong, but there is no problem adding range to throw a concussive weapon. EB and HA should both be 5 points per 1d6, just like RKA and HKA are 15 points per 1d6.

 

HKA vs RKA is ranged vs Adds Strength. HA vs EB should be exactly the same, and if you can make it illegal in the rules to add range to strength, you can make it illegal to buy strength just to add (direct) damage - strength is already useful enough as it is (I'd probably still allow you to buy strength to use in grabs and escapes - there is no other mechanism to do it - but NOT to cause damage directly). Do damage with a power that is designed to do damage. That's a fix I'd like to see.

 

I AM NOT ARGUING THAT STRENGTH IS TOO CHEAP, I AM ARGUING THAT AS IT IS SO USEFUL, IT IS PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE TO LIMIT THE WAYS IN WHICH IT IS (AB)USED.

 

I imagine that the reason it is not done this way is because it would then cost as much for +1d6 HA as +1d6 STR, and so everyone would buy the STR as you get more utility from it. Now I'm still naïve enough to think that some people will go for concept over powergaming. I mean, who are we kidding anyway: you want to use strength at range, you pick up a rock and throw it, it does STR damage to what it hits (subject to its DEF+BODY total...).

 

What is the solution? I dunno, I just play the game, but it may involve making EB cheaper IN EFFECT (assuming the cost of STR is set in stone...). Do it this way:

 

EB or HA come under the same power: Normal Attack with a cost of 5 points per 1d6 BUT are considered to INCLUDE a +1/2 advantage already, either ranged or adds strength (i.e. the base cost is 3 1/3, but don't tell anyone - it'll freak them out). WHY? Well, to, for instance make a 6d6 EB armour piercing and 0 END would cost (30 (x+1)) = 60. To do it with 'NA' would cost (20 (x+1.5)) = 50. Over complicated, but I'm trying to fit a round peg into a blue picture frame. Or something.

 

To summarise: it doesn't make sense, but you have to live with it.

 

Just an odd thought for you: You might as well buy STR: No figured Characteristic instead of HA...

[Lightray]

Just an odd thought for you: You might as well buy STR: No figured Characteristic instead of HA...

But doesn't HA give you a benefit that limited STR doesn't? Namely: advantages on HA apply to a set number of your DC from STR damage? (IIRC, but don't have time to spelunk thru the FAQ now)

[JMHammer]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

Not that all the explanations here don't make sense – because they do – but to me, EB and RKA are the same power except the former does Normal Damage and the latter does Killing Damage. Similarly, in my mind, HA and HKA are the same power except the former does Normal Damage and the latter does Killing Damage. I don't worry about what the Hand Attack (-1/2) Limitation is supposed to represent; it's there so that HA can have an Active Cost of 5 points per d6 but have a Real Cost of less than 5 points per d6. (FWIW, which is pretty much nothing, I always thought that the Hand Attack Limitation should have been -1/4, assuming that No Figured Characteristics is to remain at -1/2.)

 

I want consistency. I don't want to have to build a throwable Killing Attack using the HKA Power and the Ranged Advantage, while a throwable Normal Attack requires EB (that's EB, not HA) and a custom Can Add STR To Damage Advantage (plus, sometimes, the Limited Range Limitation or the Range Based on STR Limitation). But this is the way I'll need to build it if i want to continue to use Hero Designer. And while I and my spreadsheets can do arithmetic just fine, thank you, HD makes character design so much faster and easier that I'm not willing to give it up just because I can't customize it easily enough to suit my personal interpretations of the rules.

 

Thanks for helping me think through this, guys.

John H

[Lightray]

I want consistency. I don't want to have to build a throwable Killing Attack using the HKA Power and the Ranged Advantage' date=' while a throwable Normal Attack requires EB (that's EB, not HA) and a custom Can Add STR To Damage Advantage (plus, sometimes, the Limited Range Limitation or the Range Based on STR Limitation). But this is the way I'll need to build it if i want to continue to use Hero Designer. And while I and my spreadsheets can do arithmetic just fine, thank you, HD makes character design so much faster and easier that I'm not willing to give it up just because I can't customize it easily enough to suit my personal interpretations of the rules.[/quote']

Well, if all this came up because Hero Designer is preventing you adding the Ranged advantage to a HA, just use a custom "Ranged" +1/2 advantage. Custom advantages skirt all those pesky rules that you might want to homebrew out of your own campaign.

 

And, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I think that Hero makes use of a "Can Be Thrown" advantage to stat up daggers or sticks or whatnot that you normally use hand-to-hand, but occasionally throw. Look at a few of the weapon stats and you should be able to deduce the advantage value (I'm thinking +1/4, but someone with FREd at hand can correct me).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged OK for HKA, not for HA

 

But doesn't HA give you a benefit that limited STR doesn't? Namely: advantages on HA apply to a set number of your DC from STR damage? (IIRC' date=' but don't have time to spelunk thru the FAQ now)[/quote']

 

By gad, you're right! It is in FRED 272. You don't reduce STR damage for advantages applied to HA so long as the STR does not more than double the HA damage. Well remembered.