Jane's Superhumans

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

I agree, with a caveat...

 

I'm of a mixed opinion on the Iron Age. On one hand, I like the shift in the basic underlying mentality from one of fantasy to one of science fiction (if someone can remind me where I saw that analysis of the shift posted online, I'd appreciate it).

Er, I think that was actually me, in a couple of different threads.

The powers become the "what if?" of a setting, and things proceed fairly rationally and analytically from there. That's the good aspect of the Iron Age.

Agreed. Some of the most brilliant aspects of the comic book medium were Iron Age works which handled superheroes in an intelligent "what if" fashion such as Watchmen and Miracleman and to a lesser extent Dark Knight Returns.

IMO, the bad aspect of the Iron Age was the juvenile, hipper-than-thou cynicism, gore, and titilation -- the festival of gratuitous violence, sex, corruption, and futility.

Agreed. A big problem that the Iron Age suffered was that when writers and artists broke free of Silver/Bronze constraints, they went wild and started pandering to the baser instincts of the teenage audiance. On the other hand, I could point out that comic books were far from alone in going in this direction.

[Chuckg]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Actually' date=' a dragon could be taken down eventually with enough artillery and airstrikes. It could do a lot of damage, but it's too slow to fight a modern military.[/quote']

 

One of my favorite Dragon Magazine covers is the one to DRAGON #143.

 

You're looking at a red dragon, you see. Rampant, wings flaring, breath flaming out viciously.

 

The problem for the dragon is...

 

... you're looking at him through the Heads-Up-Display of an F-18.

 

Sucks to be him.

 

Edit -- attachment removed to satisfy the ravenous quota gods. We hope you got it while it was here.

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

How many 20 mm rounds does he carry? I DOUBT any would miss...

 

That doesn't even count missiles.

 

 

Imagine an A-10!!!

 

 

 

 

One of my favorite Dragon Magazine covers is the one to DRAGON #143.

 

You're looking at a red dragon, you see. Rampant, wings flaring, breath flaming out viciously.

 

The problem for the dragon is...

 

... you're looking at him through the Heads-Up-Display of an F-18.

 

Sucks to be him.

 

Edit -- the new attachment quota system required me to purge all my prior attachments. We hope you got all those comics scans and data PDFS and whatnot.

[Gary]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

How many 20 mm rounds does he carry? I DOUBT any would miss...

 

That doesn't even count missiles.

 

 

Imagine an A-10!!!

 

 

A D&D dragon is usually a powerful spellcaster and shapechanger. If it had the right spells prepared or if he waited to turn into a dragon until it was at the airbase before the planes could take off into the air, the fight might turn out differently...

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

The problem for the dragon is...

 

... you're looking at him through the Heads-Up-Display of an F-18.

I'd give you rep if I hadn't already allocated my 24 hour quota (which is actually quite rare for me).

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

A D&D dragon is usually a powerful spellcaster and shapechanger. If it had the right spells prepared or if he waited to turn into a dragon until it was at the airbase before the planes could take off into the air' date=' the fight might turn out differently...[/quote']

True, but we're talking about a modern world with only supers, not a Rifts game. The dragons are presumed to be summoned. And while a summoner could summon a dragon and convince it to assume another form and attack, etc. There might be a super guarding the base that could detect this. A lot of 'what ifs' to throw in. I think the basics of the thread account for supers in the military and their use.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

This thread kind of shoots down Aberrant's whoke"Elites dominating warfare" situation and makes Godlike's no real impact set up seem far more likely.

 

In a 350 point Champions game, yeah.

 

The base level for Aberrant games is a good deal above that, and the experienced Elites that do most of the fighting would, frankly, eat 350 point supers for breakfast, before they've fully woken up.

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

The base level for Aberrant games is a good deal above that' date=' and the experienced Elites that do most of the fighting would, frankly, eat 350 point supers for breakfast, before they've fully woken up.[/quote']

I've never read the "Aberrant" comic (it is a comic, correct?), but from what I've seen on other threads, no sir, I don't think I'd like it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Not a comic. Its an RPG. Iron Age supers, relatively shiny on the surface, rusted sewer grate underneath.

[Gary]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

True' date=' but we're talking about a modern world with only supers, not a Rifts game. The dragons are presumed to be summoned. And while a summoner could summon a dragon and convince it to assume another form and attack, etc. There might be a super guarding the base that could detect this. A lot of 'what ifs' to throw in. I think the basics of the thread account for supers in the military and their use.[/quote']

 

 

The good thing about Summon in a thread like this is that you don't really need to use it in combat. So you can afford to takes loads of Extra Time, Concentrate, Gestures, Incantations, Charges, etc limitations to get a very low real cost for your powers and then unleash the Summons at your leisure. And each creature Summoned is completely expendable.

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Yes, But... Imagine the surprise of the dragon...

 

A D&D dragon is usually a powerful spellcaster and shapechanger. If it had the right spells prepared or if he waited to turn into a dragon until it was at the airbase before the planes could take off into the air' date=' the fight might turn out differently...[/quote']

[Gary]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Yes' date=' But... Imagine the surprise of the dragon...[/quote']

 

 

Sure, the first dragon will be very surprised.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

I've never read the "Aberrant" comic (it is a comic' date=' correct?), but from what I've seen on other threads, no sir, I don't think I'd like it.[/quote']

 

It's a superhero RPG from White Wolf (although some at WW deny it's a superhero game, it quite clearly is one), and it has the overwrought conspiracy-theory goofiness that you'd expect from WW. There are some good ideas in there (some great ones, even), but as a whole, I dislike the setting a great deal.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

You don't need 1000 pt characters to crush the military. You merely need characters designed to take them on.

 

Most Champions characters are built to fight other Champions characters according to genre convention. IOW, they trade shots on the battlefield. This type of character plays into the standard military's strength and is least effective against them while "sniper" types who can attack safely from miles away and many exotic character designs are discouraged by most GMs.

 

Here are some character types who can crush regular militaries:

 

1) Long range teleporters

2) Desolidifiers

3) Subtle mentallists

4) Anyone with a reasonably broad VPP

5) People with Danger Sense and even remotely useful powers

6) Tunnellers

7) People with Extra Dimensional Traveller

8) People with properly designed Change Environment

9) Creative uses of Transform

10) Summoners

 

There are probably a few types I'm missing.

Nice analysis, Gary. And you're absolutely right; most Champions characters are designed to function in a superhero genre campaign. Many such characters are in some respects little more than anthromorphized tanks and aircraft, precisely the types of opponents modern militaries are designed to defeat.

 

Rep for you.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

One of my favorite Dragon Magazine covers is the one to DRAGON #143.

 

You're looking at a red dragon, you see. Rampant, wings flaring, breath flaming out viciously.

 

The problem for the dragon is...

 

... you're looking at him through the Heads-Up-Display of an F-18.

 

Sucks to be him.

 

Edit -- the new attachment quota system required me to purge all my prior attachments. We hope you got all those comics scans and data PDFS and whatnot.

Yep, that's a keeper!

[Gary]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Nice analysis, Gary. And you're absolutely right; most Champions characters are designed to function in a superhero genre campaign. Many such characters are in some respects little more than anthromorphized tanks and aircraft, precisely the types of opponents modern militaries are designed to defeat.

 

Rep for you.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, most RPGs are more fun when both sides can fight each other face to face. You tend to remember the fights that take you to the brink of defeat more than you remember a character from 3 miles away smashing another group of outmatched goons.

 

Computer RPGs OTOH, are great if you're the type who sets up elaborate tactics and traps for your foes. Your only concern is to beat the enemy no matter what, unlike a FTF game which requires that the GM has fun as well.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Nice analysis, Gary. And you're absolutely right; most Champions characters are designed to function in a superhero genre campaign. Many such characters are in some respects little more than anthromorphized tanks and aircraft, precisely the types of opponents modern militaries are designed to defeat.

 

Rep for you.

Well, I hate to come in and nitpick, but if you gave me a conventionally designed superhero and threw them against modern militaries, I think the supers would come out a little better than you think, at least if we were switching from Silver Age to Iron Age in every regard.

 

The main thing you're overlooking is that if we're going to go with conventionally designed Champions characters dropped into a realistic setting, then we get to play with more realistic equipment rules. That's right, we're not using superheroic equipment rules, we're using heroic equipment rules, which all of a sudden changes the equation considerably.

 

Take your average superdense brick like Colossus. Do you think the Russian/Soviet military, if they had their hands on him would tell him to go out and use his bare hands on the enemy? Or would they find the heaviest guns they could find and see what he could shoot while still standing upright? And remember that ammunition weight isn't an issue for him the way it is for regular grunts.

 

The main issue then becomes is the ground beneath him solid enough to support his weight or not. In situations where he doesn't sink to his knees, he's a mobile weapons platform. Not as fast as a truck mind you, but a lot more bulletproof. And able to go places that a conventional vehicle wouldn't. In urban situations, Colossus and a BFG might do very well, especially as the caliber of the weapons that would be returning fire probably wouldn't do him any harm at all.

 

A lot of conventionally designed Champions characters would end up in a more realistic sort of situation would end up taking on a lot of equipment, equipment that regular military types couldn't use or could use in ways that regular military types couldn't, and to devistating effect as well.

 

Flyers are the classic example of that. The problem that ground forces have is that they can't move fast over hard ground. The problem with airborne forces is that they tend to stand out. Helicopters make a lot of noise and they're big enough to attract attention. Now put together a squad of flying paranormal types, and give them state of the art military gear up to their carrying and usability capacity (in the case of flying bricks, that's quite scary).

 

For that matter, flying energy projectors are nothing to sneeze at as well. Able to fly close to the ground, they might even be able to blast missiles fired at them out of the air or throw up a force field to protect themselves (or carry a superhero who can shield them, remember the Dash/Violet combo in the Incredibles?).

 

Remember that even conventionally designed superheroes can be equipped and deployed in ways that normal human forces can't be. Not overwhelmingly so, but I can bet that the military right now isn't set up for human sized flying objects with the manuverability of your typical flyer, and if that flyer was carrying sensor arrays and acting as a spotter for artillery and missile launchers (ground based or flying), they could make a very devistating combination.

 

Admittedly, the powers we can't duplicate are more valuable than the powers that we can, but remember that DARPA is funding an exoskeleton program right now to give soliders greater strength and endurance than what we have now. Even 250 point bricks can put even the exoskeletons we'd like to have in 2020 to shame.

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

How will he warn the others after 3000 rpm 20mm shells?

 

 

Sure' date=' the [i']first[/i] dragon will be very surprised.

[Kristopher]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Two old posts of mine containing thoughts on the likely use of superhumans in the military:

 

Originally Posted Here...

 

I'd think that the military and intelligence agencies would be more likely to recruit from those who are "below the radar" in terms of being superheroes/supervillains. This gives them a far larger pool to sift a few suitable candidates out of for a small unit of special forces soldiers with powers. And they would be scarey in their own way.

 

Take that 200-point individual with relatively minor powers, who the "real" supers kinda laugh at, or ignore, or whatever. Now, give that person a couple of years of special forces training...send them through SEAL training and Pararescue school, or whatever you like. Give him the best equipment the US government can afford. Team him up with a bunch of guys just like him.

 

Are the "real" supers still laughing?

 

And originally posted here...

 

I'm not sure what thread it was on, but at one point I posted an idea for those people with minor powers who wouldn't normally be considered "superheroes": the military looks for those with useful but low-end powers, recruits them, runs deep security/background checks on them, and then puts those who qualify and volunteer through serious special-forces training (SEALs, Pararescue, Delta Force, etc level training). Their cutting-edge equipment and weapons, intense training, and low-level powers combine to make them the world's best special ops unit. Imagine squads where the scout/point-man has excellent Danger Sense, the heavy-weapons specialist has 30 STR, the medic has Healing, the Intelligence specialist has 6d6 of Telepathy, the squad leader has a group Mind Link, another guy can walk through walls, and so on.

[Gary]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

How will he warn the others after 3000 rpm 20mm shells?

 

 

The summoner will warn the others of course. It's not like a Champions summoner actually cares about losses.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Treat dragon scales as heavy ceramic/composite armor, or even equivalent to carbon nanofiber in strength. The fire breath is intense enough to melt mild steel, and the teeth and talons can rend thick plate horse barding, so an F-16 shouldn't be too much of a problem And of course the dragon can cast magic missile and automatically hit the pilot

 

Anyway, I think the only point I've really persistently tried to make is twofold:

1. supers in groups are far more dangerous than the same number operating solo--due to concentration and diversity of power

2. megapowerful supers are at least as difficult for conventional military forces to deal with as they are for other supers

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well, as the ref, you can, of course do that. Though what is the range of a magic missile, and how fast does the dragon fly? and then there is the wingman...

 

I never said supers were weak comparitively, but I get annoyed by the people

who want the military to fold worse than the Iraqi army.

 

Treat dragon scales as heavy ceramic/composite armor, or even equivalent to carbon nanofiber in strength. The fire breath is intense enough to melt mild steel, and the teeth and talons can rend thick plate horse barding, so an F-16 shouldn't be too much of a problem And of course the dragon can cast magic missile and automatically hit the pilot

 

Anyway, I think the only point I've really persistently tried to make is twofold:

1. supers in groups are far more dangerous than the same number operating solo--due to concentration and diversity of power

2. megapowerful supers are at least as difficult for conventional military forces to deal with as they are for other supers

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Kristopher, do you really think that the military and other agencies are going to tell the government:

 

"Well, these paranormals are really powerful, but as they don't pass the battery of IQ tests and psychological exams, plus the fact they don't really want to work for us, so we can't use their powers and we're just going to let them go run around loose."

 

Wrong answer. The fact of the matter is that the powers that be are going to give orders to the military and other agencies:

 

"Find a way to harness the powers of these paranormals in the service of the government. End of discussion."

 

You're forgetting with special ops types that the main reason that we screen for patriotism and mental stability and so on is because there's a wide pool of candidates available and its cheaper/simpler/etc. to simply find people with the Right Stuff rather than taking people who fall short of that ideal and training them up to that level.

 

When you're dealing with a lottery and you get a random sample of types who hit the jackpot, then you don't get the luxury of picking and choosing who you get to work with from a vast pool of candidates. Instead you get a small pool of candidates and if none of them are up to spec, passing them over isn't much of an option.

 

So a housewife who tends to freeze up in a crisis gets the power to teleport. You don't have the option of having a vast range of teleporters to choose from, and your superiors in the government aren't going to be happy if you tell them that you can't use the powerful teleporter because they don't pass a few stress tests. They're going to tell you to train her until that isn't a problem anymore.

 

Yes, people with weaker powers but scoring high on traditional qualities the government looks for in agents are going to be favored, but for the folks with the strong talents, they're going to get a lot of attention from a battilion of psychologists finding the levers to persuade them to work for the government and to build them up to be proper agents.

 

Yes, it's a lot more expensive to give that teleporter all that training and conditioning on top of other sorts of training, but the question is, how much is a teleporter worth? Especially compared to what might happen if that teleporter fell into non-government hands. Compared to the amount of money the military spends on fighters, bombers and so on.

 

The question isn't whether the military finds it all that cost effective to train high power paranormals (and one can make an interesting study of that), but the question of whether the government can afford to let these folks run around loose anyway and whether or not the government really has a choice in not trying to make these folks into usable soldiers/agents.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well, as the ref, you can, of course do that. Though what is the range of a magic missile, and how fast does the dragon fly? and then there is the wingman...

 

I never said supers were weak comparitively, but I get annoyed by the people

who want the military to fold worse than the Iraqi army.

 

yeah, I'd expect a bunch of guys who volunteered for a dangerous job to be hard to demoralize, and pretty resourceful too. the big variable in this whole equation is, I think, relative DEX, SPD, and CVs--if the average soldier is a DEX 12 with a level or two, and a level built into their gun, then they come up with a 6-7 OCV, which is very effective against lower CV supers. Of course, logically, the supers are just as likely to seek cover, and set and/or brace from an "improved position"(brick tosses a wrecked car in front of building, provinding extra protection for the energy projector, while the armor suit scans for any incoming aircraft). I'd hazard a guess that the best elite soldiers are about DEX 15, SPD 3, with maybe 3 levels and a couple levels built into a specialty weapon, for a top end CV of 10.

[Blackjack]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

If we go with an "official product" look' date=' i.e. limited color, I would suggest the following for Blackstone's Metahumans. The text under the pic I have condensed heavily, but as usual, I would be happy to take suggestions on where to move things around (the suggestions have been great thus far).[/quote']

 

Looks great, Publius.