Oihid

[Sean Waters]

Fix in the mix

 

You can not devise a 'fair' system, based on points or otherwise that perfectly balances every aspect of characters so that they are all in some way 'equal'. cf any legal system.

 

There is no point in leaving it all to GM discretion as there is probably only one GM that CAN run a completely balanced and fair yet still exciting and enjoyable game without reference to rules (me*, obviously).

 

'Twixt and 'tween we will find our Holy Grail.

 

My inane suggestion that we should build as per the rules then disallow anything that doesn't work well (or works too well, depends on the perspective) in practice is based on the theory that the Holy Grail is having an enjoyable time. I think that in order to do that there have to be rules to give structure to expectations, but there has to be flexibilty in order to give flight to imagination**. An oddly accessable Holy Grail, but there you have it.

 

 

 

 

* although no one else seems to think so, least of all the players...

 

** I talk such b**ls**t, but you knew that already.

[zornwil]

Re: Fix in the mix

 

You can not devise a 'fair' system, based on points or otherwise that perfectly balances every aspect of characters so that they are all in some way 'equal'. cf any legal system.

 

There is no point in leaving it all to GM discretion as there is probably only one GM that CAN run a completely balanced and fair yet still exciting and enjoyable game without reference to rules (me*, obviously).

 

'Twixt and 'tween we will find our Holy Grail.

 

My inane suggestion that we should build as per the rules then disallow anything that doesn't work well (or works too well, depends on the perspective) in practice is based on the theory that the Holy Grail is having an enjoyable time. I think that in order to do that there have to be rules to give structure to expectations, but there has to be flexibilty in order to give flight to imagination**. An oddly accessable Holy Grail, but there you have it.

 

 

 

 

* although no one else seems to think so, least of all the players...

 

** I talk such b**ls**t, but you knew that already.

I'm not sure if I agree with all of the implications as exactly phrased, regardless this is well-stated and mostly the best statement as a summary.

 

PS - Marked for rep, I can't give anything out at the moment (24 hr period).

[Warp9]

Re: Fix in the mix

 

To me, there is a difference between actually modifying the system (using house rules), and just leaving matters up to GM judgement on a case by case basis.

 

Having rule changes that are spelled out clearly in black and white (before the game) is different than relying on arbitrary judgement calls made during the game. In the former case, you are still using a system, even if it is not exactly as printed in the official rule books.

[Warp9]

Re: Fix in the mix

 

You can not devise a 'fair' system, based on points or otherwise that perfectly balances every aspect of characters so that they are all in some way 'equal'. cf any legal system.

 

There is no point in leaving it all to GM discretion as there is probably only one GM that CAN run a completely balanced and fair yet still exciting and enjoyable game without reference to rules (me*, obviously).

 

'Twixt and 'tween we will find our Holy Grail.

 

My inane suggestion that we should build as per the rules then disallow anything that doesn't work well (or works too well, depends on the perspective) in practice is based on the theory that the Holy Grail is having an enjoyable time. I think that in order to do that there have to be rules to give structure to expectations, but there has to be flexibilty in order to give flight to imagination**. An oddly accessable Holy Grail, but there you have it.

 

 

 

 

* although no one else seems to think so, least of all the players...

 

** I talk such b**ls**t, but you knew that already.

 

Those are some good points, but I’m still left wondering how far a game system should go.

 

If all that you really want is some guide lines which can later be modified according to "what works" and "what does not work," something simpler like Fudge should work pretty well (IMO, of course)

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

There is probably always going to be the need for some GM intervention. But some games place much more emphasis on GM intervention than Hero.

 

Relative to games like Fudge, Hero seems to be designed along the lines of minimal GM intervention. And I can understand the perspective that limitations should, as much as possible, function in a balanced manner without the need for specific GM intervention. Which is the position that Gary seems to be taking (at least as I understand his perspective).

 

 

 

My interest in this topic comes for a situation in a game that I’m setting up. I have a bunch of aliens in my game with impressive natural abilities. You may imagine something along the lines of the natural abilities of a lion (which FREd rates at 188 points). But, given a match between a 50 point Big Game Hunter, and a 200 point Lion, I would put my money on the Hunter. IMO technology can often compensate for a lack of natural abilities, and creatures with natural abilities may not be as effective as their point totals would indicate.

 

Basically, I’d like to take the package deals and arbitrarily set the value I, as GM, think they should have, as opposed to the value given by the Hero Rules. I am totally cool with this method of doing things, but I am concerned that the Players may not see things the same way as I do.

 

I know that, if I were playing in the game, I might have some concerns about it. One of the reasons that I like Hero is that I favor a more comprehensive set of rules with less GM intervention, and I’d prefer a set system of doing things rather than leaving things up to “GM hand waving.â€

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

There is probably always going to be the need for some GM intervention. But some games place much more emphasis on GM intervention than Hero.

 

SNIP

 

I know that, if I were playing in the game, I might have some concerns about it. One of the reasons that I like Hero is that I favor a more comprehensive set of rules with less GM intervention, and I’d prefer a set system of doing things rather than leaving things up to “GM hand waving.â€

 

Hero is a game where a huge number of powers and constructs can unbalance or completely destroy a scenario or campaign, and where the idea that the GM will have to make a very large number of decisions based on "common and dramatic sense" is built into the rules. That is part of the price we pay for flexibility. I respect the desire of some players for more fixed rules and systems, and I strive for coherent rules interpretations in my own campaigns, but there are many cases where the only answer that makes sense is "Do what you think will work best for your campaign."

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

(snip)

One of the reasons that I like Hero is that I favor a more comprehensive set of rules with less GM intervention, and I’d prefer a set system of doing things rather than leaving things up to “GM hand waving.â€

 

Interestingly, I kind of feel HERO's strength is in the opposite, that it encourages an active GM role. Obviously it has a lot of minutiae and specific rules, but the intersection of those creates an extremely rich area for judgement. Where the strength of the system lies in regard to your point, I think, is not in the specific rules, but that it has a strong core that informs a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients. Perhaps moreso, though, embedded in the rules are warning signs and alternatives for handling play - while these require GM involvement, they also inform the GM as to the impact of his decisions.

 

I guess I'd say it's the best of both worlds! Or the best I know of, anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

The legal system analogy can be used to demonstrate how rules are used too: the criminal law tends to be quite closely defined but there is still plenty of room for interpretation by the Courts and Judges, and that interpretation, if it stands the test of time, often becomes enshrined in the law.

 

I don't think that there is really any conflict between comprehensive rules and GM interpretation. Leaving discretion in the system doesn't turn it into Fudge, although it is sometimes like chewing toffee.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

The legal system analogy can be used to demonstrate how rules are used too: the criminal law tends to be quite closely defined but there is still plenty of room for interpretation by the Courts and Judges, and that interpretation, if it stands the test of time, often becomes enshrined in the law.

 

I don't think that there is really any conflict between comprehensive rules and GM interpretation. Leaving discretion in the system doesn't turn it into Fudge, although it is sometimes like chewing toffee.

 

Heh. "Chewing toffee"; I like that.

 

In any case, the above pretty well sums up my feelings on the interaction between rules & GM intervention. I think the big difference between 'rules-heavy' systems (like HERO) and 'rules-light' (like FUDGE) is not so much the amount of GM intervention, but more the type.

 

In Fudge, the GM has to do darn near everything. If I recall correctly (been a while since I looked at Fudge), about the only thing provided by the core rules is a dice mechanic and a few suggestions on how to use it. Do you want to know Falling Damage? Make it up. Do you want to know how hard Acrobatics makes you to hit? Make it up. Etc.

 

In the case of the Hero System, a lot of the basic rules issues (like Falling Damage and the like) as well as a few complex ones (like Impairing/Disabling wounds) are already covered. That's less that the GM needs to make up off the bat. On the other hand, the more complex a rule system gets, the more rules there are to interact with each other in unexpected ways. In those situations, the GM needs to make a calling on that interaction.

 

So, in practice, I'd say GM intervention amounts probably aren't hugely different. They're probably just more noticeable in Fudge.

 

Now, as for House Rules, I'm generally in the 'less is more' camp. However, I think it's only fair to point out that I don't consider most 'Character Creation Guidelines' to be true House Rules. By CCG, I'm talking about things like Active Points caps, Starting Points, Dissad Points, Skill/DEF/DC/CV ranges and generally making sure the characters are balanced against each other. These don't change any of the fundamental rules of the system itself.

 

What I consider House Rules are things that either change the rules as they currently exist: breaking DEX down into CV, Skill Roll and Initiative components for 1 point each, randomizing the Turn Order, and the like; or add in things the Hero System doesn't cover: what Megascale would have been before 5E. Implementing changes like this requires a great deal of forethought and care. Chapter 6: "Changing the System" should be considered required reading before embarking on any of these kinds of changes. The ideas in this chapter, especially 'The Meta-Rules of the Hero System' are invaluable as a set of guidelines.

 

In any case, that's a rough summary of my thoughts on the issue.

 

BTW, I need to go back and rep whoever started us on this tangent as I think it's a much more useful and fundamental discussion of the issue than just endlessly rehashing the minutia of changing OIHID.

 

Edit: Okay, near as I can tell, Zornwill started this tangent in message 431, and I still cann't rep him, darn it!

[Mentor]

Re: Oihid

 

Interestingly, I kind of feel HERO's strength is in the opposite, that it encourages an active GM role. Obviously it has a lot of minutiae and specific rules, but the intersection of those creates an extremely rich area for judgement. Where the strength of the system lies in regard to your point, I think, is not in the specific rules, but that it has a strong core that informs a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients. Perhaps moreso, though, embedded in the rules are warning signs and alternatives for handling play - while these require GM involvement, they also inform the GM as to the impact of his decisions.

 

I guess I'd say it's the best of both worlds! Or the best I know of, anyway.

I completely agree. No rules can adequately reflect "flavor". The only way to completely define special effect is by limiting them. Having played Champions since first edition, I can tell you that players always manage to come up with novel and interesting twists that had not been seen by our group or as examples.

 

Only through a meeting of the minds by players and the GM is it possible to get as fair and balanced rules definition of the new ability as possible. Even then, we have had to "retcon" edit occasional abilities to make them more or less powerful based on the point totals.

 

As always, unless the GM and players trust one another not to take advantage, it is hard to agree on the point vs. power balance of any ability.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

Interestingly, I kind of feel HERO's strength is in the opposite, that it encourages an active GM role. Obviously it has a lot of minutiae and specific rules, but the intersection of those creates an extremely rich area for judgement. Where the strength of the system lies in regard to your point, I think, is not in the specific rules, but that it has a strong core that informs a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients. Perhaps moreso, though, embedded in the rules are warning signs and alternatives for handling play - while these require GM involvement, they also inform the GM as to the impact of his decisions.

 

I guess I'd say it's the best of both worlds! Or the best I know of, anyway.

Do you think that there could be a rules lite game that also works to inform a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients?

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

In the case of the Hero System, a lot of the basic rules issues (like Falling Damage and the like) as well as a few complex ones (like Impairing/Disabling wounds) are already covered. That's less that the GM needs to make up off the bat. On the other hand, the more complex a rule system gets, the more rules there are to interact with each other in unexpected ways. In those situations, the GM needs to make a calling on that interaction.

 

So, in practice, I'd say GM intervention amounts probably aren't hugely different. They're probably just more noticeable in Fudge.

I've found that most of the time, I can pretty much use the Hero system, as is, because (as you say above) so many things are already covered.

 

There are a few cases, like maybe 5 percent of the time, where I have to make specific calls on uncovered situations. But that is far better than 100 percent GM intervention in a system like Fudge.

 

added on edit: it is worth noting that I believe that there is a huge difference between using house rules (which can be put down in black and white, long before the game), and "on the fly" GM interevention. I often use house rules, not because the system is broken, but because there are specific objectives that I'd like to achieve with those rules. However, I don't find the need for very much "on the fly" GM interevention.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Do you think that there could be a rules lite game that also works to inform a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients?

 

There's this games system called 'physics' that covers everything....

 

I was actually thinking today, what with the new, even bigger 5ER out: how accessible is Hero to new players? I know we have Sidekick (haven't seen it myself: any good?) but the 'core rules' are now so big that even experienced players won't have read the whole book, and the standard criticism of Hero 'it's too complicated' may appear to be gaining ground. It isn't complicated, it is thorough - I know - but it isn't a book you can pick up, skim read, and be playing a game that evening. OK, maybe it never was, but with early editions of Champions, you had a shot at maybe running a game tomorrow evening.

 

Maybe we do need a rules lite version (that'll be Champions TNM? Nah!), a booklet no more than 8 to 10 pages long that'll get you up and running and into the game. Strip out character creation (that is scary for many new players), and just put in the soul...

 

 

...anyway, physics...

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

There's this games system called 'physics' that covers everything....

 

I was actually thinking today, what with the new, even bigger 5ER out: how accessible is Hero to new players? I know we have Sidekick (haven't seen it myself: any good?) but the 'core rules' are now so big that even experienced players won't have read the whole book, and the standard criticism of Hero 'it's too complicated' may appear to be gaining ground. It isn't complicated, it is thorough - I know - but it isn't a book you can pick up, skim read, and be playing a game that evening. OK, maybe it never was, but with early editions of Champions, you had a shot at maybe running a game tomorrow evening.

 

Maybe we do need a rules lite version (that'll be Champions TNM? Nah!), a booklet no more than 8 to 10 pages long that'll get you up and running and into the game. Strip out character creation (that is scary for many new players), and just put in the soul...

 

 

...anyway, physics...

I haven't seen SideKick either, but from what I understand that IS what SideKick is. It's like the Calista Flockheart of Hero (get that bitch a sammich).

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

There's this games system called 'physics' that covers everything....

Wow! Sounds like that is exactly what I'm looking for in a system. And I believe that I already have a couple of versions of the main rule book on my shelf.

 

 

I do think that a game system should function as a kind of physical model for the game universe. There are a few cases (like physical stress on complex biological systems) which are better handled in a bit more abstract way as opposed to a pure determinalistic approach. For example, rather than saying that a gun does X damage to somebody, it is necessary to say a given gun does a range of damage from X to Y (2 to 12, 3 to 18, etc. . .).

 

I believe that a game system can come fairly close to monitering itself, although, at the level of sophistication that could be run without a computer, you're probably always going to need GM supervision.

 

 

 

 

I was actually thinking today, what with the new, even bigger 5ER out: how accessible is Hero to new players? I know we have Sidekick (haven't seen it myself: any good?) but the 'core rules' are now so big that even experienced players won't have read the whole book, and the standard criticism of Hero 'it's too complicated' may appear to be gaining ground. It isn't complicated, it is thorough - I know - but it isn't a book you can pick up, skim read, and be playing a game that evening. OK, maybe it never was, but with early editions of Champions, you had a shot at maybe running a game tomorrow evening.

 

Maybe we do need a rules lite version (that'll be Champions TNM? Nah!), a booklet no more than 8 to 10 pages long that'll get you up and running and into the game. Strip out character creation (that is scary for many new players), and just put in the soul...

That is not a bad idea, but there are already other rules lite game out there. The reason that I like Hero is because it is comprehensive. I believe that to make Hero "rules lite" would damage it. For me, the main reason Hero stands out is that it requires less GM arbitration.

 

I also like Hero for its flexibility, but you can get flexibility from a rules lite system, the problem is that you have to be willing to put up with "GM hand waving."

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

Do you think that there could be a rules lite game that also works to inform a GM as to the essential systemic ingredients?

Yes, I do, and I have advocated for such.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

or add in things the Hero System doesn't cover: what Megascale would have been before 5E.

This comment is a bit of a side jump, but it is still something worth mentioning.

 

I'm heard people say the same thing about Megascale before, but I don't really get it. It is possible that there might be some aspects of Megascale that I'm not taking into account, but it seems to me that most things you can do with megascale you could already do with previous rules.

 

Area Effect Radius could always be doubled per each +1/4, that would give you an increase of approx (X 1 trillion radius for a + 10 advantage). Sure that is more expensive than megascale, but IMO being able to zap the entire galaxy should be pretty expensive.

 

And as for as the travel powers go, you would double your non-combat speed in most of them for + 5 points (and there was always FTL), so you could get around pretty well even before Megascale. All Megascale did is make that stuff cheaper.

 

 

 

So, YES, as far as I can tell, Hero did cover that stuff before Megascale came into the picture.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes' date=' I do, and I have advocated for such.[/quote']

If there was such a rules lite system, would you consider it superior to Hero?

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

If there was such a rules lite system' date=' would you consider it superior to Hero?[/quote']

Not really superior, just superior in some ways - inferior in others, but in both cases more of a philosophical/opinion call rather than (IMHO) something quantitative.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

Not really superior' date=' just superior in some ways - inferior in others, but in both cases more of a philosophical/opinion call rather than (IMHO) something quantitative.[/quote']

It is obvious (or I should think it would be from my posts) why I would think that Hero would still be superior to the other game.

 

What are the ways that you'd say Hero would still be superior?

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

This comment is a bit of a side jump' date=' but it is still something worth mentioning.[/quote']

 

That's okay, we haven't talked about OIHID for a while now.

 

I'm heard people say the same thing about Megascale before, but I don't really get it. It is possible that there might be some aspects of Megascale that I'm not taking into account, but it seems to me that most things you can do with megascale you could already do with previous rules.

 

[snip examples]

 

So, YES, as far as I can tell, Hero did cover that stuff before Megascale came into the picture.

 

Technically, you could do that, however the cost made it highly impractical (especially for PCs). What Megascale did was put such builds within reach of 250-350pt characters. So, in this case, it's not a litteral case of, 'You couldn't buy huge areas/distances/etc before megascale', it's, 'You couldn't do that in a practical fashion before megascale'.

 

Some things are going fall on the boarder between 'What the Hero System can't do' and 'Things the Hero System does in an unwieldy way'. Megascale is one of those.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

In our campaign Megascale has been used almost exclusively for movement powers to create supersonic flight or long range teleports ("Philadelphia to Norfolk"). One character has a AoE Megascaled Change Environment to represent creating a small thunderstorm (Which creates penalties to movement and perception rolls). We have no Megascaled attacks amongst the PCs, and I'm not sure we'd allow that anyway. If any supervillains have Megascaled attacks, I haven't seen him yet.

 

Megascaled was a good addition IMO because it permitted certain concepts to be built for a reasonable cost without really screwing up the game balance. Rocket Man should be able to break the sound barrier without it costing him 80 character points. But like any ability, it can be abused.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Some things are going fall on the boarder between 'What the Hero System can't do' and 'Things the Hero System does in an unwieldy way'. Megascale is one of those.

 

Bleh, that's not quite what I meant to say. What I meant to say was that some things fall on the boarder between 'What the Hero System can't do' and 'Changes to the way it does things'. Megascale is one of those because of the impracticality of the old way of doing it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

In our campaign Megascale has been used almost exclusively for movement powers to create supersonic flight or long range teleports ("Philadelphia to Norfolk"). One character has a AoE Megascaled Change Environment to represent creating a small thunderstorm (Which creates penalties to movement and perception rolls). We have no Megascaled attacks amongst the PCs' date=' and I'm not sure we'd allow that anyway. If any supervillains have Megascaled attacks, I haven't seen him yet.[/quote']

 

Well, most Megascale attacks only have their Range megascaled (the orbiting laser satellite being the prime example). Of coiurse, an AoE Megascale could be puirchased to damage huge numbers of people all at once. A viable example? "My Sleep Ray can cast an entire CITY into slumber! [2d6 NND (need not sleep; ingesting substantial caffeine; surrounded by unuisual energy fields +1), AoE 1 hex(+1/2), Megascale (1" = 10 km; +1/2) OAF Immobile (-2) sleep machine; no range (-1/2); 9 points] Can Your Heroes stop the looters, find the Machine and restore the citizens of Campaign City to their normal wakeful state? [or slap on extra time to activate and make it a blackmail scheme]

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Well' date=' most Megascale attacks only have their Range megascaled (the orbiting laser satellite being the prime example). Of coiurse, an AoE Megascale could be puirchased to damage huge numbers of people all at once. A viable example? "My Sleep Ray can cast an entire CITY into slumber! [2d6 NND (need not sleep; ingesting substantial caffeine; surrounded by unuisual energy fields +1), AoE 1 hex(+1/2), Megascale (1" = 10 km; +1/2) OAF Immobile (-2) sleep machine; no range (-1/2); 9 points'] Can Your Heroes stop the looters, find the Machine and restore the citizens of Campaign City to their normal wakeful state? [or slap on extra time to activate and make it a blackmail scheme]

 

In a Standard campaign, I've really come to appreciate Megascale for Weather Control and Movement Powers. IMO, the in-game effects of being able to create huge storms and travel in a minute or two of non-combat time from London to New York were seriously overpriced before.

 

On the other hand, I'd only allow things like Mega-Knockback or Mega-Throw in a Galactic Champions level game, or a very Iron Age game, and even then I'd be cautious about it. It's a power similar to EDM useable as attack as far as Instant Kill Potential is concerned.