Oihid

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

Megascaled was a good addition IMO because it permitted certain concepts to be built for a reasonable cost without really screwing up the game balance. Rocket Man should be able to break the sound barrier without it costing him 80 character points. But like any ability' date=' it can be abused.[/quote']

I agree. This all goes into Steve's reasoning from scalable effects.

 

Remember the discussions (way back before DoJ) that an ant, spider or centipede (average every-day, household versions) were costing upwards of 100pts due to the Shriking, 0 END Persistent?

 

Didn't make a lot of sense did it? And it would totally throw off power-level comparisons: lets see...the heroes add up to 847 points...so I'll throw 3 bumblebees, 6 ants and a ladybug for 1158 points.

 

MegaScale was needed to do the same for (primarily) movement based folks as the size deal was done for large/small characters.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

It is obvious (or I should think it would be from my posts) why I would think that Hero would still be superior to the other game.

 

What are the ways that you'd say Hero would still be superior?

The level of detail is useful, informative, and gives good ideas to explore. I don't see how either (if both are HERO) would really be superior innately. I think Sidekick is inferior because they left things out; I don't think you need to leave things out to create a stripped-down HERO.

 

PS - whoops, by "things" in the last sentence, I mean all the powers, frameworks, and basic combat.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

In our campaign Megascale has been used almost exclusively for movement powers to create supersonic flight or long range teleports ("Philadelphia to Norfolk"). One character has a AoE Megascaled Change Environment to represent creating a small thunderstorm (Which creates penalties to movement and perception rolls). We have no Megascaled attacks amongst the PCs, and I'm not sure we'd allow that anyway. If any supervillains have Megascaled attacks, I haven't seen him yet.

 

Megascaled was a good addition IMO because it permitted certain concepts to be built for a reasonable cost without really screwing up the game balance. Rocket Man should be able to break the sound barrier without it costing him 80 character points. But like any ability, it can be abused.

I agree, I was highly skeptical earlier (initially even critical) but we found some excellent uses that haven't unbalanced play at all. We also don't have Megascale attacks. One use is our mentalist whose mood, when particularly annoyed, broadcasts headaches in a large radius around her; no actual effect in terms of combat or such, a fairly innocuous but quite interesting use.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

IMO, the in-game effects of being able to create huge storms and travel in a minute or two of non-combat time from London to New York were seriously overpriced before.

 

I do agree with this concept, up to to a point anyway.

 

But one of the things that really gets me about megascale is that its every use seems to violate MetaRule #6 (if two valid ways to do the same thing exist, then use the more expensive way). If a GM actually went by that, you'd never get to use Megascale.

 

To me, the real problem is that the old methods still exist at the same price, but now you've got new methods which exist along side at much cheaper prices. If you really think that the old prices for things like extra-noncombat multiples on flight were unfair, you should change them.

 

If you want it to be cheap to fly from NY to London, all you've got to do is make non-combat multiples cost 1 pont each (or even 1/2 point each).

 

Same thing with increased radius, make each +1/4 give X64 radius, under this method, to increase the radius on an ability to 200 Lightyears would only be a +2.5 Advantage, rather than a +4 advantage (which is what it would be under Megascale).

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

I do agree with this concept, up to to a point anyway.

 

But one of the things that really gets me about megascale is that its every use seems to violate MetaRule #6 (if two valid ways to do the same thing exist, then use the more expensive way). If a GM actually went by that, you'd never get to use Megascale.

 

To me, the real problem is that the old methods still exist at the same price, but now you've got new methods which exist along side at much cheaper prices. If you really think that the old prices for things like extra-noncombat multiples on flight were unfair, you should change them.

 

MetaRule #4, "The point cost of a Power should support game balance..." is as important a consideration.

 

MetaRule #5 is more important, "One Power should not be used to do what another already does." This trumps MetaRule #6 in this instance because MegaScale is in fact now a rule. Similarly, MetaRule #5's corollary regarding choosing appropriate modifiers aligns with trumping MetaRule #6 in this instance.

 

If you want it to be cheap to fly from NY to London, all you've got to do is make non-combat multiples cost 1 pont each (or even 1/2 point each).

 

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't scale as well as Megascale, asme for radius/range. I'm not saying your suggestions are bad, but all you are proposing is a recosting that makes the small-end tactical scale cheaper (you can still do a number of things in combat at non-combat speeds) and on the larger scale doesn't scale as elegantly. Giving x64 radius for x1/4 is a tremendous advantage, plus you are - much more dangerously - turning a reasonably time-tested and mostly respected non-warning/non-alert construct into a more alerted/stop sign one, whereas Megascale separated this out properly into a danger sign construct and left the traditional, accepted construct alone.

 

Same thing with increased radius, make each +1/4 give X64 radius, under this method, to increase the radius on an ability to 200 Lightyears would only be a +2.5 Advantage, rather than a +4 advantage (which is what it would be under Megascale).

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

MetaRule #4, "The point cost of a Power should support game balance..." is as important a consideration.

The real question here is: "Is the Old way of buying flight from London to NY balanced?"

 

If the old price is fair then it sould be left alone, if not, then the old way should be changed.

 

 

 

MetaRule #5 is more important, "One Power should not be used to do what another already does."

Again, this comes down to: "why have megascale, when rules already exist to extend speed, range, and radius?"

 

 

 

This trumps MetaRule #6 in this instance because MegaScale is in fact now a rule. Similarly, MetaRule #5's corollary regarding choosing appropriate modifiers aligns with trumping MetaRule #6 in this instance.

I don't think that the difference between taking Flight with + X 1024 Noncombat speed and taking Flight with MegaScale really fits here. There are legatimate differences between inhibiting someone with a drain vs and entangle. But I don't see the same thing going on with the Flight example. IMO most people use Megascale on flight just to get out of paying for all those extra NCMs (they just thought the old way of flying from London the NY was too expensive).

 

 

 

 

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't scale as well as Megascale, asme for radius/range.

I would argue that it scales at least as elegantly for 2 reasons.

 

1) Megascale is inconsistant in the way it jumps around, the first +1/4 goes from hexes to KM (a leap of X 500) all the other leaps go in sets of X 10.

 

2) Hero is based on powers of 2, not powers of 10. I choose X 64, because 64 is 2 to the power of 6, and it represents 6 sets of doubling rather than the existing 2 X per +1/4 which people said was too expensive.

 

You could also use something like X 16 (or 2^4) per +1/4, instead of X 64 (2^6) per +1/4.

 

 

 

I'm not saying your suggestions are bad, but all you are proposing is a recosting that makes the small-end tactical scale cheaper (you can still do a number of things in combat at non-combat speeds) and on the larger scale doesn't scale as elegantly.

I would say that I am proposing having 1 way of doing increases to things like a character's speed. As opposed to having multiple methods which do not balance well with each other (NCM at 5 points per X2, vs Megascale).

 

Giving x64 radius for x1/4 is a tremendous advantage

It is still much less than the first step of Megascale (X 500 for +1/4)

 

plus you are - much more dangerously - turning a reasonably time-tested and mostly respected non-warning/non-alert construct into a more alerted/stop sign one, whereas Megascale separated this out properly into a danger sign construct and left the traditional, accepted construct alone.

I'll grant that the above is a valid point.

 

And I can understand the concept of letting GMs choose between the old methods and going with the new more powerful methods. However, it would be nice if the book made it more clear that character A should not be paying huge amounts of his points so that he can easily fly from London to NY, while in the same game, character B gets this same ability much cheaper. Ideally an experienced Hero GM should catch this problem, a group which is new to Hero might miss it.

[Kristopher]

Re: Oihid

 

On the other hand, there's this construct...sending someone into space for 68 Real Points is pretty cheap. If you were using it strictly as an attack form, you could dump the NRV and PS parts.

 

Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (68 Active Points)

 

It's not like I'd allow a PC to have that power, I'm just really entertained by it for some reason.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

I do agree with this concept, up to to a point anyway.

 

But one of the things that really gets me about megascale is that its every use seems to violate MetaRule #6 (if two valid ways to do the same thing exist, then use the more expensive way). If a GM actually went by that, you'd never get to use Megascale.

 

Do you force people to buy Force Feild, 0 END, Persistant, Inviible Power Effects, or do you let them buy Armor? Without using your judgement, which includes tailoring what you do and do not allow by campaign, the rules are meaningless.

 

 

To me, the real problem is that the old methods still exist at the same price, but now you've got new methods which exist along side at much cheaper prices. If you really think that the old prices for things like extra-noncombat multiples on flight were unfair, you should change them.

 

If you want it to be cheap to fly from NY to London, all you've got to do is make non-combat multiples cost 1 pont each (or even 1/2 point each).

 

Same thing with increased radius, make each +1/4 give X64 radius, under this method, to increase the radius on an ability to 200 Lightyears would only be a +2.5 Advantage, rather than a +4 advantage (which is what it would be under Megascale).

 

The way the designers chose to reprice these items was with a +1/4 advantage; In situations and campaigns where the GM prefers the old prices he can use them, in situations and campaigns where he prefers making NCM cheap Megascale is available. In some situations you'll use both; Megascale to cover most of the distance, old NCMs to finish the trip. As the GM you are free to reprice things as you wish in your own campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

A factor that seems to be overlooked here is that Megascaled powers lack the precision of "multipled" powers. To use the example above, a character who uses Flight (Megascaled) to fly from London to New York might well find himself crossing the American coastline over Virginia or Maine. Teleport or Flight bought with multiples wouldn't have this problem. They go right where you want. No fuss, no muss. We have a teleporter on our team, Sidestep, who has a Megascaled TP of nearly 1000 miles. But as I've explained to him, just because he can easily teleport from Oslo to Berlin doesn't mean he can predict where in Berlin he'll arrive. He might still arrive miles from where he wants to be. Plus, Megascale is by definition non-combat so the character has lower combat values.

 

In my experience Megascaled Flight/movement is more of a concept-enhancing "candy" ability or even a plot device than a useful power. Sure, Whizzer can run across the Atlantic to America in only 3.2 seconds. Yes, but can he go straight where he wants to go? If you want the team to cross the Atlantic to fight the villain, then it generally helps game play if the team or hero can get there quickly rather than spending (read: wasting in this context) 20 minutes describing how they get on a British Airways commercial flight (sneaking the ninja's swords past security) to get to La Guardia Airport in NYC. Giving our team a "free" supersonic jet (and now starship) wasn't nearly as useful to the players as it's been to the GMs, who can now accurately plot around how the team will arrive and how quickly. Before we had to deal with multiple modes of transportation. Now all the eggs are in one basket, so to speak.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

The real question here is: "Is the Old way of buying flight from London to NY balanced?"

 

Agreed - but if this is our example, don't forget, it can be even way cheaper.

 

Teleport, one fixed location...

 

If the old price is fair then it sould be left alone, if not, then the old way should be changed.

 

Again, this comes down to: "why have megascale, when rules already exist to extend speed, range, and radius?"

 

Because they were too expensive for non-invasive/non-game-unbalancing constructs in higher-powered games. Bear in mind you won't see Megascale or corrresponding "old-style" abilities as such in non-super/non-high fantasy games, anyway.

 

I don't think that the difference between taking Flight with + X 1024 Noncombat speed and taking Flight with MegaScale really fits here. There are legatimate differences between inhibiting someone with a drain vs and entangle. But I don't see the same thing going on with the Flight example. IMO most people use Megascale on flight just to get out of paying for all those extra NCMs (they just thought the old way of flying from London the NY was too expensive).

 

I haven't seen anyone buy Megascale to move around the globe from one precise location to another, unless they then bought the smaller non-megascaled flight increments, owing to the nature of Megascaled travel. And as stated, it's way easier just to build teleports for hot spots if that's what's needed, and that's a much cheaper and rules-orthodox construct.

 

Bear in mind, you can't just by megascale to go from one precise location to another.

 

I would argue that it scales at least as elegantly for 2 reasons.

 

1) Megascale is inconsistant in the way it jumps around, the first +1/4 goes from hexes to KM (a leap of X 500) all the other leaps go in sets of X 10.

 

2) Hero is based on powers of 2, not powers of 10. I choose X 64, because 64 is 2 to the power of 6, and it represents 6 sets of doubling rather than the existing 2 X per +1/4 which people said was too expensive.

 

You could also use something like X 16 (or 2^4) per +1/4, instead of X 64 (2^6) per +1/4.

 

Good points. But the x10 paradigm is not unheard of in HERO, even if rare, and the problem is the scale of operation. I think these points all go to how Megascale could be improved, but don't disavow splitting Megascale from incremental NCMs.

 

I would say that I am proposing having 1 way of doing increases to things like a character's speed. As opposed to having multiple methods which do not balance well with each other (NCM at 5 points per X2, vs Megascale).

 

That they don't balance well is of course just opinion, whereas certainly I agree there's a weakness to multiple methods. But Megascale does address, well, "megascaled" attributes that won't scale well with the traditional abilities, primarily because if we simply apply the traditional abilities (and worse if we recost them) they are even more abusive, as the bearer gets the benefit of their granularity AND the increased power. Hence Megascale.

 

It is still much less than the first step of Megascale (X 500 for +1/4)

 

Again, a massive difference in granularity, though.

 

I'll grant that the above is a valid point.

 

And I can understand the concept of letting GMs choose between the old methods and going with the new more powerful methods. However, it would be nice if the book made it more clear that character A should not be paying huge amounts of his points so that he can easily fly from London to NY, while in the same game, character B gets this same ability much cheaper. Ideally an experienced Hero GM should catch this problem, a group which is new to Hero might miss it.

 

Yeah, I agree Megascale can create some confusion, though they did at least put a sign on it so that ought to tip off even newbies. And the text of Megascale is pretty explicit that it is not granular. It should be even more clear (given the FAQ as it was) in 5th Rev.

[Grailknight]

Re: Oihid

 

Megascale is on of the best things to happen to in 5th overall but I hate how it is applied to movement powers.

 

Problem 1- It's cheaper than the old way. This problem was actually caused by 4th Ed and megascale was the 5th fix. Under Hero 1-3, Adders did not affect the END cost of a power. This allowed most characters to take 4-8x times on their movement powers and speedsters to to take 16-64x without raising the END cost to unsustainable levels. Any character who takes Megascale is automatically a speedster. Megascale also benefits excessively from the removal of minimum cost levels in movement powers.

 

Problem 2- The "less control" problem is nonexsistent. Megascale is only 1'" to 1 km by default. If you're willing to accept a slight cost increase set your first breakpoint at 10" and buy scalable. Now you get right where you need to go at hypersonic speeds. Running was always problematical because it has no turn mode by default.

 

The fix I've used, and YMMV, is to make the first level of Megascale cost +1/2 and to start at a straight 10x multiplier. Scalable is free.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

Megascale is on of the best things to happen to in 5th overall but I hate how it is applied to movement powers.

 

Problem 1- It's cheaper than the old way. This problem was actually caused by 4th Ed and megascale was the 5th fix. Under Hero 1-3, Adders did not affect the END cost of a power. This allowed most characters to take 4-8x times on their movement powers and speedsters to to take 16-64x without raising the END cost to unsustainable levels. Any character who takes Megascale is automatically a speedster. Megascale also benefits excessively from the removal of minimum cost levels in movement powers.

 

Problem 2- The "less control" problem is nonexsistent. Megascale is only 1'" to 1 km by default. If you're willing to accept a slight cost increase set your first breakpoint at 10" and buy scalable. Now you get right where you need to go at hypersonic speeds. Running was always problematical because it has no turn mode by default.

 

The fix I've used, and YMMV, is to make the first level of Megascale cost +1/2 and to start at a straight 10x multiplier. Scalable is free.

I totally disagree. Mere possession of Megascale movement doesn't automatically make one a speedster any more than a 2d6 EB AoE Megascale make a character a Weapon of Mass Destruction. So you can break every window in a 10 mile radius? Big deal. It merely means he gets from City A to City B quickly. The Megascale rules are quite clear that you can't use Magascale to do Move By/Throughs. The essence of a speedster is using their velocity as both attack and defense; it's not characterized simply by high DEX , movement, or SPD. Even scalability doesn't overcome these weaknesses of Megascale. Whether you move 100 meters or 100000 kilometers per Phase, Megascale still doesn't get you on target.

[Grailknight]

Re: Oihid

 

I totally disagree. Mere possession of Megascale movement doesn't automatically make one a speedster any more than a 2d6 EB AoE Megascale make a character a Weapon of Mass Destruction. So you can break every window in a 10 mile radius? Big deal. It merely means he gets from City A to City B quickly. The Megascale rules are quite clear that you can't use Magascale to do Move By/Throughs. The essence of a speedster is using their velocity as both attack and defense; it's not characterized simply by high DEX ' date=' movement, or SPD. Even scalability doesn't overcome these weaknesses of Megascale. Whether you move 100 meters or 100000 kilometers per Phase, Megascale still doesn't get you on target.[/quote']

 

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I should have said that Megascale makes a character a speedster in the plot device/transportation sense. It does not make one a combat speedster. My point about scalability is that it DOES eliminate the inaccuracy of megascale and it does it within the written rules. Whether you or I would allow either method is another topic for discussion. I gave my fix, which is purely my house rule, but I would like to hear yours. As an aside, most of the speedsters presented to me use the martial arts method. Is this the method you use with Z'lf? I'd like to play with you guys some time but that's a long drive just to game.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

Problem 1- It's cheaper than the old way. This problem was actually caused by 4th Ed and megascale was the 5th fix. Under Hero 1-3, Adders did not affect the END cost of a power. This allowed most characters to take 4-8x times on their movement powers and speedsters to to take 16-64x without raising the END cost to unsustainable levels. Any character who takes Megascale is automatically a speedster. Megascale also benefits excessively from the removal of minimum cost levels in movement powers.

I agree with your sentiment.

 

But I don't believe that extra multiples raised END cost in 4th edition. This actually came up as an argument I had with a GM about 10 years ago. The book said that non-combat velocity cost the same END as one's combat velocity. This phrasing lead the GM to think that 1000" non-combat velocity would cost the same as if you'd bought 1000" of normal velocity (which would be 200 END).

 

But if you read the rules closely and look at the example given under movement powers (at the beginning of the Powers Section), you'll see that NCM does not cost you any extra END to use over your normal flight costs.

 

(Look at the example of Bluejay, which is on page 55 in my 4th ed book, she can fly at 15" combat or 30" non-combat, either way, she pays 3 END)

 

 

 

 

 

And as for earlier editions, my Champions Rule Book (which I got in 1983), does not cover any rules for increasing NCV (maybe some other editions were different).

 

It only states the following (on pages 61 nd 62 of my book, it is oward the back of the book under the section titled "Movement and Game Scale") You can run or swim at 2X combat speed.

 

And non combat flight follows this formula:

"Max Non-Combat Flight = (Points in Flight / 5) X Inches of Combat Flight."

 

This old method is cool because a fast combat flight character does not have to buy all those extra multiples in order to be fast outside of combat. If you are fast in combat, you are automatically fast out of combat.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

My point about scalability is that it DOES eliminate the inaccuracy of megascale and it does it within the written rules.

Good point.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I should have said that Megascale makes a character a speedster in the plot device/transportation sense. It does not make one a combat speedster. My point about scalability is that it DOES eliminate the inaccuracy of megascale and it does it within the written rules. Whether you or I would allow either method is another topic for discussion. I gave my fix' date=' which is purely my house rule, but I would like to hear yours. As an aside, most of the speedsters presented to me use the martial arts method. Is this the method you use with Z'lf? I'd like to play with you guys some time but that's a long drive just to game.[/quote']Ah. My mistake; I misunderstood you.

 

However, Scaling still doesn't overcome the combat difficulties of Megascale. According to the FAQ, "Assuming the GM isn’t willing to waive the general restriction in the interest of common sense and dramatic sense, you can try this option: for an additional +1/4 Advantage, with any level of MegaMovement above 1†= 1 km, you can automatically scale it down to a minimum of 1†= 1 km when determining how far you move." In other words, once you set your multiple, it's a fixed number.

 

Also in the FAQ: "Question: Can a character designate +1/4 MegaScale at lower than 1 km (for example, 100 meters per hex)? Answer: Yes. Normally the table would indicate this, but the numbers are so large there wasn’t room. At the +1/4 level, you can designate a hex as being anything up to 1 km; at the +1/2 level, anything from 1.1 to 10 km; and so on." It would thus seem that 1" = 1 km is the minimum permissible distance to travel with any Megascale movement. Even if a particular campaign's house rules allow distances less than 1000 meters, those distances are still going to be out of hand to hand and probably all combat ranges.

 

Plus, while moving at Megascale velocities you are at OCV 0, ½ DCV, and have a minimum movement distance of whatever your Megascale determines is 1". With this rule I have a rather hard time figuring how you're going to smack an opponent after using any Megascale movement. As it says on page 169 of FREd: "The tradeoff for Megascale is this: you can't use it on a personal level anymore." Except for sex, I can't think of anything more on a personal level than combat.

 

I do not consider Zl'f to be a speedster, and neither do any of my co-GMs. She is, rather, a very fast martial artist. She closes (albeit quickly - 30" Running) with her selected opponent and fights at hand to hand ranges. Move Bys/Move Throughs, and Passing Strikes are not part of her combat repertoire. Indeed, with her STR of 15 but only 6 PD outside of Combat Luck (which does not protect from Move By/Through damage per Steve Long) a full speed 30" Move Through doing 11d6 (which requires Pushing her STR) would have a 100% probability of Stunning her if she does no Knockback and would probably KO her with an average roll since her Stun is only 29. Even if Zl'f does do KB to her target she takes only 1.5 points below her 18 CON in damage, meaning a damage roll just slightly above average will Stun her. She's used it only twice in her entire career, both times to save a comrade about to get badly hurt. Both times she Stunned herself but did manage to (barely) remain conscious. I refuse to buy her Passing Strike precisely because that would make her a speedster in all but name. And as I said, she's not a speedster.

[Kristopher]

Re: Oihid

 

RE: Z'lf

 

I admire your commitment to concept. Would that more gamers shared that trait.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

I'll conceed that I had not fully considered the fact that Megascale flight is different from NCV flight, in that 10" flight with a bunch of extra NCM can still be used in combat.

 

added on edit: I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that the NCM can be used in combat, but the base 10" of flight is still OK for combat.

 

 

 

I still have problems with Megascale flight in that it seems to me like its only real purpose in the game is to duplicate flight with a high NCM, but for less cost (1 level of Megascale is pretty much the same as having a X 512 Non-Combat Multiple).

 

My feeling is that a power which only exists to serve the exact same function as an existing ability, but for lesss cost, is not legitimate.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

I'll conceed that I had not fully considered the fact that Megascale flight is different from NCV flight, in that 10" flight with a bunch of extra NCM can still be used in combat.

 

added on edit: I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that the NCM can be used in combat, but the base 10" of flight is still OK for combat.

NCM Flight CAN be used for combat. It merely gives the attacking character 0 OCV and ½ DCV. That would of course make it rather difficult to hit most targets, but something large enough and/or enough Skill levels might still permit an NCM Move Through. It would of course take the usual time to accelerate to full speed. I could see a tough brick using an NCM Move Through to trash a large alien ship. He might even survive.

 

Megascale Flight is different because by definition it cannot be used for combat.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

I'm all for Megascale, I love the advantage as now I can have someone capable of large scale flight and not have to pay through the nose for a plot based power.

 

Also on the plot side of scalable: You can always use Varable advantage to give you the following:

 

1/2 End

Megascale 1": 10m

Megascale 1": 100m

Megascale 1": 1KM

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

NCM Flight CAN be used for combat. It merely gives the attacking character 0 OCV and ½ DCV. That would of course make it rather difficult to hit most targets, but something large enough and/or enough Skill levels might still permit an NCM Move Through. It would of course take the usual time to accelerate to full speed. I could see a tough brick using an NCM Move Through to trash a large alien ship. He might even survive.

 

Megascale Flight is different because by definition it cannot be used for combat.

 

Actually I believe that you're wrong about that, refer to page 170 of FREd.

 

Look at the paragraph in the first column toward at the bottom of the page. The paragraph I'm talking about starts out: "MegaMovement is considered Noncombat Movement. . . . "

 

If you read the paragraph, it does not say any thing about being impossible to use MegaMovement in combat. It only says that you need GM permission to attempt attacks during MegaMovement. And it goes on and a bit later to say that a character using MegaMovement to attack is 0 OCV and ½ DCV (just like other non-combat movement). It also warns that you are likely to kill yourself doing a MegaMovement move through.

 

So I would say that your idea that: "Megascale Flight is different because by definition it cannot be used for combat," is incorrect. As long as you get the GM's permission, Megascale Flight can be used in combat, just like non-combat Flight.

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

I'm all for Megascale, I love the advantage as now I can have someone capable of large scale flight and not have to pay through the nose for a plot based power.

That is a pretty good argument to the effect that extra non-combat multiples should be cheaper than 5 points.

 

 

As far as the "plot based power" thing goes, the power can be used to go off in one's own direction, which will mess up the GM's plot. A character can suddenly decide that he wants to explore Bora Bora, and off he goes in the blink of an eye.

 

The power may not be useful in combat, but it can have a major effect on the game in other ways.

 

 

Also on the plot side of scalable: You can always use Varable advantage to give you the following:

 

1/2 End

Megascale 1": 10m

Megascale 1": 100m

Megascale 1": 1KM

Good point. There are plenty of ways to get around the limitations of Megascale, including using it as a variable advantage, and it is still really cheap.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Oihid

 

NCM Flight CAN be used for combat. It merely gives the attacking character 0 OCV and ½ DCV.

 

It's worse than that, if you go by the book with acceleration.

 

IIRC, you can only accelerate 5" / inch, and each phase you can increase your terminal velocity by your combat move. If you have 512x NCM, it'll take 512 phases to get to speed. If I'm remembering correctly, that would make unaltered NCM multiples nearly useless - go for Megascale or a +1/2 to +1 advantage on your movement so you can actually get to speed in a reasonable amount of time or distance.

 

I don't think accelerating with Megascale is discussed, but I'd think it wouldn't be better than NCM ... ?

 

If cheese weren't an issue, I'd never have NCM multiples (i.e. take the limitation!) - I'd use Megascale for out-of-combat movement and truly desperate attacks.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Oihid

 

Oh, and don't get me started with the delirium surrounding Leaping and acceleration!

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

It's worse than that, if you go by the book with acceleration.

 

IIRC, you can only accelerate 5" / inch, and each phase you can increase your terminal velocity by your combat move. If you have 512x NCM, it'll take 512 phases to get to speed. If I'm remembering correctly, that would make unaltered NCM multiples nearly useless - go for Megascale or a +1/2 to +1 advantage on your movement so you can actually get to speed in a reasonable amount of time or distance.

 

I don't think accelerating with Megascale is discussed, but I'd think it wouldn't be better than NCM ... ?

 

If cheese weren't an issue, I'd never have NCM multiples (i.e. take the limitation!) - I'd use Megascale for out-of-combat movement and truly desperate attacks.

Megascale Acceleration is discussed on page 170 of FREd.

 

And yes, acceleration would be better with Megascale, unless you bought enhanced acceleration for your standard non-combat flight (see FREd page 84 for that).