A stunning attack

[Sean Waters]

Someone was asking how to do an attack that stunned a target but didn't necessarily do much or any actual damage. Can't find the thread now, but just thought of this: use dispel STUN.

 

Dispel won't be permanent damage (it comes back instantly), it is really cheap AND for stunning purposes, it makes no difference how you lose the STUN, if it exceeds your CON you suffer the effects of STUN.

 

Question, then. If I dispel enough stun to put someone on negative stun do they fall over unconscious and then instantly recover i.e. would such an attack make them stunned AND prone?

 

If your END total was higher than your STUN total when you were KO'd, would END now =STUN as it does when you normally recover from unconsciousness?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: A stunning attack

 

According to FRED, Characteristics can't be Dispelled. Suppress with a Limitation to reflect the quick recovery would get you similar results, though.

[Vorsch]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Its also metagaming, rules for the sake of rules.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Its also metagaming' date=' rules for the sake of rules.[/quote']

 

When when I want to reduce the target's Stun, I use an Energy Blast (PD, Stun Only). One of my gaming mottos is, "When in doubt, use the simplest mechanic to approximate the effect you are looking for."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

I agree a Stun only EB is the easiest way to reduce STUN. However, that's not the effect of the desired power. The attack as I read it is supposed to Stun, but not cause Stun damage. This is a mechanic the system has never really been geared up to do. I see a few approaches:

 

(a) Use Dispel Stun, regardless of what the rules say. The Stun vanishes momentarily, then instantly returns. Since we're handwaving the "can't dispel a characteristic" rule anyway, also handwave that the Dispel can cause a target to be Stunned, but not KO'd. The problem with this approach is that Dispel is all or nothing, and you don't need to KO a target to Stun him.

 

( Use Suppress Stun, with the limitation that the effect is instantaneous (ie the user cannot maintain the Suppress, and the Stun flcikers and returns as part of the attack) nor can the target be KO'd, only Stunned (I'd call that about -1/2 - comments?). If appropriate, the attack could also Affect PD (or ED) rather than Power Defense, for a further limitation (is that a -1? Should be -1 1/2 to parallel AVLD, but -1 rings a bell and seems reasonable). Result: 5/2.5 = 2 RP, 5 AP per d6. [3.33 RP, 5 AP if vs power defense]

 

© Use an EB limited to do no BOD (-1/4), and inflict Stun only for the purpose of Stunning the target (call that -3/4). To simulate the Suppress, it should be unable to Spread (-1/4). That's 5 AP/2.25 = 2.22 RP points per die. I'd be happier if someone could come up with another -1/4 somewhere (ideally, this should have the same cost as the Suppress approach), but the costs are very similar. To work against power defense, this one costs 7.5 AP, 3.33 RP per die, a perfect RP match but higher AP. That seems to bear out -1 for "vs PD".

 

I think I'd use the Suppress, as the mechanic seems closer to the desired result (especially with immedioate recovery when shut off), but the EB approach would also be reasonable. I would be reluctant to allow any approach which reduces the AP below 5 per die, since the ability to Stun a target, while more limited than a typical attack, is still powerful, and wuld be overpowered if, say, 20d6 (60 AP/3) were the normal level of attack.

[sbarron]

Re: A stunning attack

 

I agree a Stun only EB is the easiest way to reduce STUN. However' date=' that's not the effect of the desired power. The attack as I read it is supposed to Stun, but not cause Stun damage.[/quote'] Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life, stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, is metagaming.

 

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

 

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A stunning attack

 

© Use an EB limited to do no BOD (-1/4)' date=' and inflict Stun only for the purpose of Stunning the target (call that -3/4). To simulate the Suppress, it should be unable to Spread (-1/4). That's 5 AP/2.25 = 2.22 RP points per die. I'd be happier if someone could come up with another -1/4 somewhere (ideally, this should have the same cost as the Suppress approach), but the costs are very similar. [/quote']

 

No KB (-1/4)would do that for you, or Can't be pushed.

 

Good suggestions BTW. I think the supress is the way to go too, unless someone is going to tell me you can't supress characteristics. I don't have FRED with me...

 

Stunning someone is a potential show-stopper, especially if there's a team mate to follow up with a haymaker before the next phase...

 

I do have a problem with the 3-point per dice powers that have proliferated in 5th ed. I would rather see all 'per dice' powers have a base of 5 points and take limitations even if that is a bit artificial, otherwise some advantages are far too useful for their active point totals.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life' date=' stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, [b']is[/b] metagaming.

 

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

 

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.

I remember the thread where this idea first came up. The supress/dispell idea (I am pretty sure that they settled on a suppress vs. stun) was a solution to modelling a device that worked something like a prison control collar. It could be activated and bring you to your knees but as soon as it was turned off you had no lingering effects. In that particular case I do not believe there was any meta-gaming involved since a GM started the thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life' date=' stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, [b']is[/b] metagaming.

 

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

 

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.

 

The mechanics make the power, so I have been proceeding from the assumption that the SFX justify this effect. An appropriate power which would have this effect...

 

- A magic spell which fazes or confuses the target so they hesitate without any lasting harm. Individuals with faster reaction times will shake the effects off more rapidly than others (ie they only lose 1 phase, so high spoeed mitigates the duration). [This should probably be vs mental defense.]

 

- A gaseous toxin which has short-term effects, and dissipates quickly (the target will hack and cough for a few seconds, then be basically unaffected - hence, the target loses a phase to clear the gas from his lungs, during which he is unable to concentrate on other actions). [Characters with life support should be immune.]

 

- A dazzling beam of energy which affects the centers of the brain controlling balance and perception, on a purely short-term basis. The character recovers after a phase. [should be against ED, or perhaps Flash Defense; make it subsonic, area affect and continuous, instead of a dazzling light burst, and we have DC's Count Vertigo]

 

- a SuperSkill which startles the target, forcing him off-guard and distracting his focus from maintaining defenses (ie his non-persistent powers shut down).

 

- a drowsiness attack, to similar effect.

 

I'm sure lots of other examples could be suggested. Entire groups of characters being briefly stunned with no lasting effects seems reasonably common in the comics.

 

hmmm...another possible mechanic - make the power PRE, only useable for PRE attacks (-1/2), only works to cause target to hesitate or lose 1 phase (call it another -1/2) and Costs END (for consistency with the constructs bove; -1/2). It's resisted by strength of will (Ego) or coolness under fire (PRE).

 

5/2.5 = 2 RP per die

 

Make it AVLD (+3/4) only vs Ego (instead of the greater of Ego and PRE). Now we have a "stunning" atack which is resisted only by force of will.

 

5 x 1.75/2.5 = 3.5 RP per die.

 

It should actually cost a half phase and be considered an attack action, which would further reduce the RP (reasonably, another -1/2 limitation). That makes it 1.67 per die, or 2.92 oer die if it only affects Ego. 5 AP per die, or 8.75 only affecting EGO.

 

Of course, this one won't have all the effects of Stunning (eg. the target isn't forced to shut down non-persistent powers). We could simulate that with a Linked dispel, I suppose, but now it's getting very kludgy.

 

Mind Control, one telepathic command (Shut down your powers and hesitate) could also work. It would need to be limited to have no ongoing effect, so the cost per die would probably be similar to the other constructs, more so if it's also made Visible and given normal; range modifiers, and especially if changed to act vs. PD or ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

I do have a problem with the 3-point per dice powers that have proliferated in 5th ed. I would rather see all 'per dice' powers have a base of 5 points and take limitations even if that is a bit artificial' date=' otherwise some advantages are far too useful for their active point totals.[/quote']

 

Especially when most seem easy to get around. Make Dispel a -1/2 limitation on Suppress (like Hand Attack is a -1/2 limitation). Flash can cost 5 points per die, with a -1/2 limitation if it only affects a non-targeting sense. Make the limitation -3/4 if you prefer (-1/2 is 3.33 per die; -1/4 is 2.86 per die). This maintains 1 DC at 5 AP.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: A stunning attack

 

For this, I opted for an EB, does no body, stun damage lasts for till target's next phase (-1).

[Sean Waters]

Metagaming

 

I'm not sure using the rules to build an attack that stuns without damage is metagaming any more than building it with mind control, a convoluted series of drains and supresses or any other way. You are taking advantage of the rules, but not necessarily in an abusive way. Stunning is an effect you can acheive in combat by hitting someone hard enough anyway, so there are various powers that already have this effect.

 

Like I said earlier, stunning can be a show stopper, but if the power level is reasonable for the campaign and it costs a reasonable number of points and has an appropriate defence, it isn't getting behind the scenery of the game.

 

Hugh Neilson came up with a number of perfectly reasonable sfx for which this effect would be ideal. It is, after all, the Hero system way of simulating someone being momentarily rattled and dazed. It seems daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an effect that everyone understands the mechanics of.

 

Metagaming is just taking advantage of a rule to give you an unusually effective power/effect, so...

 

Checklist:

 

1. Is the power or effect an unreasonable one? I don't think so, so long as you have a reasonable explanation.

2. Are you getting it far too cheap? Probably not, but depends how you build it. The dispel stun I suggested at the start wouldn't have passed this test, but some of the other suggestions do.

3. Is the effect disproportionate to the active points? No, depending on how you build it again - see 2. above.

 

The final proof is in the playing though. I have done this previously with an EGO attack which was half 'normal' and half 'only for stunning' - the sfx being it was a jolt of pleasure (best not to ask....). Worked pretty well, but then it was a GM character, so it would, wouldn't it?

 

Why not play test it? Stick a villain with this power in your next dust up and see if the heroes get taken to the cleaners. Let me know.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

For this' date=' I opted for an EB, does no body, stun damage lasts for till target's next phase (-1).[/quote']

 

I think that is the most straightforward way to mechanically represent what most people in this thread are describing. I would say "damage lasts until target's next Rocovery", though (a subtle but distinct difference).

 

You could probably work up a parallel construction using various amounts of Entangle, Flash, and NNDs, but I think that would be indulging in complexity for its own sake.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Metagaming

 

It seems daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an effect that everyone understands the mechanics of.

 

Agreed: it is simpler and less convoluted to simply do enough Stun damage to "stun" the target. There's no profit in creating convoluted constructions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metagaming

 

Agreed: it is simpler and less convoluted to simply do enough Stun damage to "stun" the target. There's no profit in creating convoluted constructions.

 

You are right: we should scrap all these messy advantages and limitations altogether.

[dbsousa]

Re: A stunning attack

 

If you are reasoning from effect, a target that is "stunned" is incapable of action for an indeterminate period of time (X), correct?

 

This could be:

 

A large PRE attack,

An Invisible or Mental Entangle that only lasts X.

A SPD Drain

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Metagaming

 

You are right: we should scrap all these messy advantages and limitations altogether.

 

Most of them have their uses, but it does seem daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an existing effect that everyone already understands.

[Rapier]

Re: A stunning attack

 

The distinction for me was in the way it was presented "I want an attack that will Stun someone without doing damage." My short answer was No. That is pure meta-gaming and takes advantage of rules, similar to someone wanting to build an attack 'that causes bleeding.'

 

If someone comes to me and says, "I want an attack that will so disrupt the person that they will lose an action" its a different kettle of fish entirely.

 

Depending of the SFX of the power, this could be anything from a small Entangle, a STUN Suppress, a Mind Control, a DEX Drain or any of a number of other things.

 

My problem is when a player comes to me with a concept from the backend and tries to reverse engineer it. That is one of the warning flags that goes up for a kludgy character concept.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

The distinction for me was in the way it was presented "I want an attack that will Stun someone without doing damage." My short answer was No. That is pure meta-gaming and takes advantage of rules, similar to someone wanting to build an attack 'that causes bleeding.'

 

If someone comes to me and says, "I want an attack that will so disrupt the person that they will lose an action" its a different kettle of fish entirely.

 

Depending of the SFX of the power, this could be anything from a small Entangle, a STUN Suppress, a Mind Control, a DEX Drain or any of a number of other things.

 

My problem is when a player comes to me with a concept from the backend and tries to reverse engineer it. That is one of the warning flags that goes up for a kludgy character concept.

 

How bout "I want an attack that will stun an opponent"?

(lower case S)

 

It then turns out that what they want is something that disrupts what they're doing, causes pain temporarily, makes them unable to react (/dodge - only allows them defenses based on Armour)... but, on it's own, could NEVER KO or kill someone?

 

(like, y'know, Stun effects in D&D - sometimes, I wanna convert. For example, I've often thought my 12th level Sorceror would make an interesting Superhero...)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

It then turns out that what they want is something that disrupts what they're doing' date=' causes pain ... but, on it's own, could NEVER KO[/quote']

 

You can't hurt someone ("causes pain") and not hurt them ("never KO"). Pick one. If the attack causes pain, and impairs the target for that reason, then it's pretty clearly inflicting Stun on them, which probably means an Energy Blast, with appropriate modifiers. If it impairs them without causing pain or otherwise moving them toward unconsciousness, you're probably talking about a Flash and/or Entangle, with appropriate modifiers.

 

You're way overcomplicating this. I think the single greatest weakness of Hero System is a consequence of its greatest strength: it encourages people to build Rube Goldberg engines.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

You can't hurt someone ("causes pain") and not hurt them ("never KO"). Pick one. If the attack causes pain, and impairs the target for that reason, then it's pretty clearly inflicting Stun on them, which probably means an Energy Blast, with appropriate modifiers. If it impairs them without causing pain or otherwise moving them toward unconsciousness, you're probably talking about a Flash and/or Entangle, with appropriate modifiers.

 

You're way overcomplicating this. I think the single greatest weakness of Hero System is a consequence of its greatest strength: it encourages people to build Rube Goldberg engines.

 

But STUN isn't Pain. There's RL cases of people who literally feel no pain - but a blow to the head (forex) can still cause them to fall unconscious.

 

STUN is non-permanent harm, like winding, or bruising.

 

Flash doesn't work, because they can still (forex) keep attacking - they just can't see.

 

Entangle doesn't work either - should be based on CON, not STR. And especially not on Damage Shield or Energy Blast.

 

EB is in appropriate - it causes no harm.

 

 

I think the best tack is actually "Mind Control - One Command, Based on CON'.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

But STUN isn't Pain. There's RL cases of people who literally feel no pain...

 

Now you're just being silly. It may be that these people are exactly what the authors had in mind when coming up with the stats for Champions, but I doubt it.

 

For the vast majority of cases, Stun = pain.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Now you're just being silly. It may be that these people are exactly what the authors had in mind when coming up with the stats for Champions, but I doubt it.

 

For the vast majority of cases, Stun = pain.

 

Stun damage, in HERO, is something that eventually causes you to fall unconscious, and may do so temporarily if done powerfully enough.

 

"Sleep Spells" have been defined as STUN damage.

 

Stun = Pain only insofar as being hit hard enough to knock you out (eventually) HURTS.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

"Sleep Spells" have been defined as STUN damage.

 

And? "For the vast majority of cases" means that there are exceptions.

 

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 does not have to be complicated, unless complexity for its own sake is what you are actually after.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

And? "For the vast majority of cases" means that there are exceptions.

 

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 is not difficult: we have been doing it for years. You are intentionally making it difficult. You just want to argue.

 

In the "vast majority of cases" STUN damage and Pain are _both_ inflicted. Generally there's BODY and Knockback along for the ride too, as well as impact, the visual SFX and about a thousand other things.

 

STUN =/= Pain. It is possible to inflict painless STUN, and it is possible to inflict STUNless pain. This is HERO. Pain is not linked to any one aspect of the game. The SFX rule.

 

Daze is not difficult, no effect is... but _exactly_ how you want it to work will dictate the mechanic:

 

Stun Only EB: "It only makes sense lots of copies could KO you!"

Flash: "The world goes white with pain... A skilled fighter, or one who relies not on the sight of mortals can overcome this..."

Entangle: "Unable to move, you msut stand there and be smote... unless, in Heroic Barbarian style, you can rip free.... or, in bastardly wizard style, you can overcome it with magic of your own...."

CON Based Mind Control: "Unless you are one Tough Bastard, or have a truly pressing, overriding concern... the pain will overwhelm you, and you will freeze up, unable to to will action or life unto your body...."

 

Or, lightning bolt:

 

Superheroic/Cinematic: EB

Fantasyesque/Lethal: RKA

Shazamic: Transform, or SFX of Multiform or the like

Charging Up: Aid

Dramatic Effect: Aid to PRE

Blinding: Flash