A stunning attack

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Entangle doesn't work.

Flash doesn't work.

Transform is way overdone.

Speed drain works partially

Pre Attack does not work (senator resists the sys shock, but the brick fails)

MC is clunky - (brick is stunned, the egoist is fine)

Suppress does not effect stun.

Char dmg does not take effect before damage does

 

Pain is a special effect only (stat loss, stunning, nnd, avld,...)

 

DMG that heals in 1 phase or is only good to produce a stun effects seems to truly capture the desired effect, of stunning the target.

 

The mechanism used to represent stunning in the hero system happens to (naturally) simulate the desired effect. Is it meta-gaming to build a power aimed at catching the appropriate flavor - a mechanic that is named after the effect you desire?

 

If you oppose this construct, is it that:

1) You do not think any form of attack should represent this type of system shock? That you can not comprehend an effect that causes stunning such as this?

 

2) You believe it to be meta-gaming, legal but against the grain of intention.

 

3) You feel it is simply too powerful and so disallow.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

The mechanism used to represent stunning in the hero system happens to (naturally) simulate the desired effect.

 

Yes, and that mechanic is (surprise) doing Stun to the target.

 

If you oppose this construct' date=' is it that:[/quote']

 

That would depend on who you are asking, and what construct you are referring to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 does not have to be complicated' date=' unless complexity for its own sake is what you are actually after.[/quote']

 

That's one more good example (I think the taser does Stun damage), and a reminder of another. "My speedser spins him around so fast he becomes dizzy. He's not hurt, but it will require a phase to recover his bearings and be able to act again."

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Yes' date=' and that mechanic is (surprise) doing Stun to the target.[/quote']

 

Actually, the mechanic I speak of are the results of being stunned. Normally you are damaged in order to be stunned - but their are conditions in which you could be stunned without being harmed or knocked out. To simulate being stunned - it is most easy to do so by stunning the target w/out damage.

 

That would depend on who you are asking' date=' and what construct you are referring to[/quote']

 

You, actually. My terminology may be off (I'm 3rd converting to 5th), but by construct I refer to an EB with a limit of 0 body, stun recovers in 1 phase, or does damage only for stunning.

 

So, what is your core disagreement with this concept?

 

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

by construct I refer to an EB with a limit of 0 body' date=' stun recovers in 1 phase,[/quote']

 

"Stun Only" isn't a limitation (or if it is, it's a -0 limitation). And I'd phrase it as "damage lasts until the target's next recovery". Other than that, I think what you have there seems a pretty straightforward way to create the power that Whamme wants.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A stunning attack

 

"My speedser spins him around so fast he becomes dizzy. He's not hurt' date=' but it will require a phase to recover his bearings and be able to act again."[/quote']

 

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

 

But a flash creates a situation were the target, while suffering OCV & DCV penalty, can still toss grenades with impunity. For a dizzy fellow, he still functions fine. He can activate his OIF Jet pack and fly straight up, turn on various powers (desolid, teleport, darkness, invis,...).

 

So - flash creates a situation in which the fellow can not see (or hear, or whatever), not one that makes him dizzy and stops him from activating the doomsday-deathto your NPC-(candy like) red button remote in his hand.

 

This would be a job for (drum roll) stunning!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

 

Not 'ta me... "can't act" is another twist (punned) to it. Even with Sight Flashed, it's possible to act. And also, exotic sense can over come this.

 

No, it needs to be a "knocked prone" type power. Probably just a martial maneuver, actually.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

"Stun Only" isn't a limitation (or if it is' date=' it's a -0 limitation). And I'd phrase it as "damage lasts until the target's next recovery". Other than that, I think what you have there seems a pretty straightforward way to create the power that Whamme wants.[/quote']

 

O' course, Daze isn't stopped (or _affected_) by Armour, or Energy Resistances. It actually needs to be a NND effect, I guess (vs Immunity to Stun affects)....

 

This is all horribly expensive...

[Rapier]

Re: A stunning attack

 

How bout "I want an attack that will stun an opponent"?

(lower case S)

EB NND.

 

That's not a problem. Like I said, it's when the player guns for a metarule that I have problems. My example: "I want a power the causes Bleeding."

 

No. You can't have a power that causes Bleeding. BUT if you wanted an attack that caused BODY damage every phase...that's another thing entire (1d6 Continuous, Penetrating RKA).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A stunning attack

 

I've been following the conversation silently for a while and I still don't understand why a Suppress is not the most simple way to go?

 

Assuming 60 active points:

Suppress 12d6 vs. Stun, As soon as you stop paying END the target recovers ALL Suppressed Stun as well as END lost due to being Knocked Out (-0) [6 End]

 

This is not abusive IMO and it is functionally just like an AVLD vs. Power Defense that averages 42 Stun. A Stun only attack would cost the same but has to overcome the normaly higher PD/ED defenses without application of NND or ALVD.

 

EDIT, here is the FAQ information:

Q: Can a character Drain, Transfer, or otherwise apply Adjustment Powers to Skills, Perks, or Talents?

 

A: There’s no specific rule against that, but it should only be allowed with the GM’s permission. The potential for abuse and loss of game balance is significant.

 

Q: What happens to a character who is Drained/Suppressed/Transferred to 0 STUN?

 

A: A character Drained/Transferred/Suppressed to 0 STUN or below is Knocked Out. His non-Persistent Powers stop working at the end of the Segment, and his END drops to 0.

 

He only regains Drained/Transferred STUN at the rate bought for the power (he doesn’t take Recoveries or apply his REC, in other words). He regains END at the same rate.

He only regains Suppressed STUN when the attacker stops maintaining the Suppress, but at that point regains all of it, and all of his END, instantly.

 

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

I agree the Stun suppress is the easiest approach. It needs a tweak in that the power can't be maintained. What about a further limitation "maximum suppressed = target's CON + 1". That virtually guarantees a KO cannot be achieved (how many characters have CON > STUN?), so we get the full desired effect.

 

Now we just need to value the limitations.

 

[Aside to bblackmoor: "0 BOD" is a -0 limit, but no knockback, which should also apply if this is built with an EB, is -1/4.]

[Gary]

Re: A stunning attack

 

How about Entangle BOECV? A mental paralysis is terrifyingly difficult to get out of for most people, and it makes sense that a strong will can help shake off the effects faster than a weak will. You can tack on a limitation of anywhere from -1/2 to -1 to represent that the paralysis lasts for only 1 of the target's phases.

[Vorsch]

Re: A stunning attack

 

A attack that does 42 stun resisted by power def will drop all but Brick characters in one phase. Tactically this is very effective.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: A stunning attack

 

EB NND.

 

That's not a problem. Like I said, it's when the player guns for a metarule that I have problems. My example: "I want a power the causes Bleeding."

 

No. You can't have a power that causes Bleeding. BUT if you wanted an attack that caused BODY damage every phase...that's another thing entire (1d6 Continuous, Penetrating RKA).

 

Rapier I see where you are coming from with this but I would like to point out that your response is appropriate for someone who is good with Hero - with someone who is not, they simply want a power that causes bleeding and that is exactly what they should be telling you. You should then be translating that for them rather than saying no.

 

I'm sure you understand that - I just felt that it wasn't coming across.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

A attack that does 42 stun resisted by power def will drop all but Brick characters in one phase. Tactically this is very effective.

 

This is a good point. Purchased as a 12d6 AVLD, we're talking 150 points (very powerful). A ranged 12d6 Drain would cost 180.

 

As an NND, 12d6 would cost 120 (now it's completely ineffective against power defense - those 30 points would be well spent).

 

But a Suppress costs only 60 for 12d6. Granted, you have to spend END to maintain it, but if he's KO'd, someone else can smack him for double STUN without any non-persistent defenses next phase, and you can then drop the Suppress. Even if all you do is suppress each enemy in turn for one phase, they have no END now. This would be a very powerful attack (and costs 6 oints in the typical swiss army multipower).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

But a flash creates a situation were the target, while suffering OCV & DCV penalty, can still toss grenades with impunity. For a dizzy fellow, he still functions fine. He can activate his OIF Jet pack and fly straight up, turn on various powers (desolid, teleport, darkness, invis,...).

 

So - flash creates a situation in which the fellow can not see (or hear, or whatever), not one that makes him dizzy and stops him from activating the doomsday-deathto your NPC-(candy like) red button remote in his hand.

 

This would be a job for (drum roll) stunning!

 

Thanks - saves me answering.

 

The fact is that Flash, or Entangle, or many of the other suggested constructs seem like very kludgy ways to do what some of these constructs really ought to do - Stun the target without causing impairment.

 

The guy spun round in circles can still detect what's going on around him. If he's not blind, how can he be flashed? He's not entangled - he doesn't need to break out, nor can he "escape" the lost phase. Neither high STR nor high EGO would generally assist in recovering from disorientation such as this.

 

Now, the better question may be how to build this power such that it can STun for more than one phase, but let's build the base power first. Adding an "uncontrolled continuous" with a declining effect to that base power, we should have a power that keeps the target disoriented (stunned) for a while. [uncontrolled maybe being 0 END, shut off by the first failure to Stun, and declining in dice each phase.]

[Sean Waters]

Re: A stunning attack

 

12d6 Supress stun, instant (-1/2, FRED 185) Cost 40 RP (60 AP)

 

You hit someone with the supress. They take (on average) 42 Stun resisted by power defence. The target has, say 40 Stun left, CON 25 and 10 Power defence. They take 30 Stun which immediately returns. They are stunned (it doesn't matter how you lose the stun, or if you get it straight back for the effect to cut in).

 

If they were down to less than 30 stun they would be stunned and prone (because they were momentarily unconscious and so fall over), but able to act normally apart from that.

 

This does exactly what (some of us) are after, and uses powers and limitations straight from the book. The mechanics are simpler to apply than a normal attack. Anyone not happy?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A stunning attack

 

From the FAQ, posted by Hyper-Man, earlier:

 

Q: Can a character Drain, Transfer, or otherwise apply Adjustment Powers to Skills, Perks, or Talents?

 

A: There’s no specific rule against that, but it should only be allowed with the GM’s permission. The potential for abuse and loss of game balance is significant.

 

 

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I drain the President's rank perk down so that all he has is an international driving licence!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: A stunning attack

 

This is a good point. Purchased as a 12d6 AVLD, we're talking 150 points (very powerful). A ranged 12d6 Drain would cost 180.

 

As an NND, 12d6 would cost 120 (now it's completely ineffective against power defense - those 30 points would be well spent).

 

But a Suppress costs only 60 for 12d6. Granted, you have to spend END to maintain it, but if he's KO'd, someone else can smack him for double STUN without any non-persistent defenses next phase, and you can then drop the Suppress. Even if all you do is suppress each enemy in turn for one phase, they have no END now. This would be a very powerful attack (and costs 6 oints in the typical swiss army multipower).

 

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

 

2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A stunning attack

 

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

 

2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?

 

 

1) Agreed

2) Nothing, but it would then work against more common (and generally larger) defences than the supress option and would be open to interpretation: the target could just soliloquise, "Wow, that is utterly amazing" then act normally. What level would that be at, do you reckon?

 

I suppose the way you build it should depend on the effect you have in mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

 

If one is reduced below zero stun, the body immediately places all effort into recovering from the KO, and all END falls to zero. Do you have a reference that indicates being suppressed below 0 STUN will not have this effect?

 

Regardless, I would handwave it given the desired effect of the power (to achieve a Stun with no actual damage).

 

2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?

 

Are some opponets more willing to be stunned than others (for lower or greater effect required)? Do they remember that you forced them to behave as if they were Stunned, or must you take this to the +20 level of "target remembers and believes it was his idea"? It's kludgy - more so than most of the other constructs suggested.

 

[RealLemming look away]

 

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

 

[RealLemming can look again.]

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A stunning attack

 

If one is reduced below zero stun, the body immediately places all effort into recovering from the KO, and all END falls to zero. Do you have a reference that indicates being suppressed below 0 STUN will not have this effect?

 

Regardless, I would handwave it given the desired effect of the power (to achieve a Stun with no actual damage).

 

 

 

Are some opponets more willing to be stunned than others (for lower or greater effect required)? Do they remember that you forced them to behave as if they were Stunned, or must you take this to the +20 level of "target remembers and believes it was his idea"? It's kludgy - more so than most of the other constructs suggested.

 

[RealLemming look away]

 

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

 

[RealLemming can look again.]

Straight from the FAQ:

Q: What happens to a character who is Drained/Suppressed/Transferred to 0 STUN?

A: A character Drained/Transferred/Suppressed to 0 STUN or below is Knocked Out. His non-Persistent Powers stop working at the end of the Segment, and his END drops to 0.

 

He only regains Drained/Transferred STUN at the rate bought for the power (he doesn’t take Recoveries or apply his REC, in other words). He regains END at the same rate.

He only regains Suppressed STUN when the attacker stops maintaining the Suppress, but at that point regains all of it, and all of his END, instantly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A stunning attack

 

 

[RealLemming look away]

 

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

 

[RealLemming can look again.]

 

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! My eyes! My sensibilities!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A stunning attack

 

Straight from the FAQ:

 

Thanks! [Zornwil, there's an example of a FAQ ruling that makes more sense than some of the rules in the book!]