The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

[Vigil]

Hi all,

 

Well, I just read the first issue of the New Avengers and I really can't see what all the fuss, or the necessity for the relaunch, is all about. To me it reads like The Ultimates lite...with one 1/3 less cynicism but all the pretension!

 

Sure, this is only the first issue but I don't see why this story couldn't have been told in regular continuity save for writer's vanity. Even then, a mini-series would suffice. Hell, look at Supreme Powers. It's been 12 issues and they haven't even formed the team...or done anything, really! Why, in a mini series, Bendis could milk getting the team together for maybe 2 years. It would probably be year 4 or 5 before they even get around to fighting anyone.

 

On the plus side, David Finch's art is up to it's usually glossy but kinda generic standard. Again, Jim Lee lite.

 

I don't know folks, maybe I'm too old school Avengers but I miss the days when the Avengers were entertaining and, maybe, relevant. Now it seems they have to be "realistic" and that's no fun at all.

 

But those are my thoughts. What are yours? What works? What doesn't? This New Avengers has been cookin' for a while. Was it worth the wait?

 

Vigil

[Myrlyn]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I started collecting the Avengers again when Busiek and Perez were doing the series. It just hasn't been the same since that partnership ended on the series. Marvel continues to butcher and destroy the comics I have loved for over 25 years. And the way the deaths that Bendis wrote for Scott Lang, Hawkeye, Vision and Jack of Hearts (all characters I loved) were just plain wrong. They completely lacked the heroic endings each of these characters deserved. And the whole new Captain Britain thing came off as being so contrived. Bendis needs to take a long holiday and stay away from Marvel titles for a while so that these characters can go on without his mucking up the formulas that worked for so long with these characters.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Those are, essentially, my thoughts. I started collecting the Avengers as a kid in the early 70's during the Roy Thomas and then Steve Englehart runs. I think what was demonstrated back then and has been in all of the great Avengers scribes, and Busiek is high in the pantheon, is a respect for the Avengers as characters and for their continuity. Take Bob Harras, for example. He penned one of the Avengers darkest stories, the seige of Avengersd mansion by the Masters of Evil. It was a grim, dark and disturbing storyline but he wrote it in such a way as to elevate, not denegrate, the Avenger's heroism. It would have been real easy to be cynical and dark and self indlugent in writing that story but, as good writers do, he rose above the basest and most gratuitous instincts to tell a great story of heroism under fire. Bendis demonstrates none of that. I find his cynical self indulgent portrayal of Captain America particularly odious. Maybe it's just not hip and cool and cynical enough to have Cap actualy stand for ideals greater than self interest. I don't know this just isn't the Avengers that I know and love.

 

Vigil

[megaplayboy]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Nobody seems to know who "nunchuck guy" is on the cover...

though...

 

spoilers...

 

 

 

DD does appear in civvie ID in ish one.

[Hermit]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I have it, and actually... like it. Oh, I don't like how we GOT here, I think Disassembled has more plot/characterization holesthan a golf course, but judging the book by its own merit?

 

Pretty good. The set up seems to make sense so far, I actually liked the art. There are some lines that made me smile, and I'm glad to see humor is not absent from this new comic entirely ( I was afraid it was going to be gloom and doom).

 

The pacing is a bit slower than I like, but only a bit (and I think it probably does show that we are now often in a world of 'trades') but the characters seem to be presented well thus far. Oh sure, Cap's a bit cranky, but that's understandable. At least he's actually DOING something besides looking sad and confused.

 

I think maybe Bendis, now that he has his favorites, will pick it up a bit and this has potential. I still do NOT like Marvel's WAY of getting to this point, but now that we're here, I see some interesting times ahead.

 

 

That does not, however, mean I don't want a certain Archer returned post haste.

[Blue]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Why end the series? Hype.

Why reboot the series? Too valuable a franchise not to continue it.

 

Hated the way they ended it.

Like the first issue so far.

 

That's about it.

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Shades of "Death of Superman".

 

And that one sucked too.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I have to agree with the "sucked" opinion. I just can't get past the conspicuous writing style. It's like saying" Oh, look at me, I'm a writer. Isn't that weird?!" Maybe the book will show some improvement now that BMB has his cast but the thing I wonder...did he have to destroy the Avengers and decimate 40 years of charcterization, relationships and continuity to do it. Hell, Englehart, Busiek or Shooter would have just had a new line up form or a membership drive. I think the way it's been handled is incredibly egocentric and that's the death of good writing.

[levi]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Like it or Hate it.....we ALL bought it.*

 

Reminds me of a certain Saga (about Cloning) Disassembled will get swept under the rug sooner or later just like that story arc did and Avengers will keep on churning. Such is the way of comicdom.

 

 

 

*(And those of you who didn't buy it shouldn't post about it because you don't know what you're talking about until you actually read it)

[KA.]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Like it or Hate it.....we ALL bought it.*

 

Reminds me of a certain Saga (about Cloning) Disassembled will get swept under the rug sooner or later just like that story arc did and Avengers will keep on churning. Such is the way of comicdom.

 

 

 

*(And those of you who didn't buy it shouldn't post about it because you don't know what you're talking about until you actually read it)

 

Well, I haven't read this, so I am not commenting directly, but let me just say that comics I read and comics I buy are not the same group.

The second is a small subset of the first.

Is this IP theft?

I don't think so.

Based on how badly many comics are screwed up (from my point of view) they are lucky if I even bother to glance through them in the store.

If I read them, or skim them, the publishers have at least some chance that I will buy them.

If I didn't skim them, I would never buy them at all.

There are things that I do buy without reading, Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, etc, of characters/periods that I know I will like.

But I don't feel obligated to contribute of the paycheck of whatever moron is currently trashing my favorite character.

And if I bought very many sight unseen, I am sure that I would quickly reach the point where I was too ticked off to even look anymore!

 

KA. The angry comic consumer.

[JmOz]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Well' date=' I haven't read this, so I am not commenting directly, but let me just say that comics I [i']read[/i] and comics I buy are not the same group.

The second is a small subset of the first.

Is this IP theft?

I don't think so.

Based on how badly many comics are screwed up (from my point of view) they are lucky if I even bother to glance through them in the store.

If I read them, or skim them, the publishers have at least some chance that I will buy them.

If I didn't skim them, I would never buy them at all.

There are things that I do buy without reading, Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, etc, of characters/periods that I know I will like.

But I don't feel obligated to contribute of the paycheck of whatever moron is currently trashing my favorite character.

And if I bought very many sight unseen, I am sure that I would quickly reach the point where I was too ticked off to even look anymore!

 

KA. The angry comic consumer.

 

You do realise that the person you hurt doing that is not marvel or dc or whom ever but the comic book retailer?

 

As for the story, I bought every issue (Had to, running the store and all), I sold almost every issue, I'm thinking of offereing a refund and burning every issue, as it was very bad

 

SPOILERS

 

 

Okay on to avengers 1: Not as one of my customers said "The train wreck" I had expected. Did not like the characterisation of Captain America (almost as if he did not like Spidey...), and I also dislike JJ having her powers back (Last time I checked they were gone). Loved the whole bit about "You have 3 super heroes here" "You know I'm not daredevil", loved the Purple Man scenes (Alias/Pulse fans know why)

[KA.]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

You do realise that the person you hurt doing that is not marvel or dc or whom ever but the comic book retailer?

 

 

JmOz,

I am not promoting the practice, but just to be a bit more specific:

 

1) I rarely actually "read" a whole comic in the store, I usually just look through them to see if there is even a possibility that I might want to buy them.

 

2) I am extremely gentle when I do this, so I always leave them in the same condition I found them in.

 

3) I only do this at the store where I buy all of my Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, and Hero books, so I don't think I am causing a net loss to the store owner.

Especially since they do not mark down anything, at all.

I sort of take it as a tradeoff.

They charge a bit more for their RPG books, and grant a little more leeway as far as "sampling".

I also do this in full view of the owner, and he has never said anything about it, or even looked with disapproval at my doing it.

 

4) As I said, if it came down to it, based on the fact that I don't like the direction most mainstream comics seem to be going in, if I didn't skim a few, I would never buy any, other than things like the Essentials that I know I am going to buy automatically.

I don't see it like downloading music (never have, never will) or buying bootleg copies of movies (ditto).

I see it more like giving the publisher, and in turn the Dealer, an opportunity to sell me their product, even though they have fallen short of my expectation many times already.

I re-read everything I ever buy, usually multiple times, which means that looking at it in the store is not a cheap substitute for buying it, at least not for me.

 

I also understand that, being in the business, you have a different perspective.

I am sure that you are plagued by kids and teens that rarely buy anything, damage half of what they look at, and would gladly steal anything that wasn't nailed down. If I were in your position, I am sure I would see it differently.

 

I think in some ways both sides are being screwed by the industry.

 

If they put out better products, people would be glad to buy them, sight unseen.

I haven't bought every single Hero book yet, although I own most of them, because I don't play every genre, and I am not that interested in vehicles.

However, when I see a Hero book that applies to something I do like, I just buy it.

I don't thumb through it in the store, because so far Hero has never screwed me by putting out substandard crap.

If they do, I will start being more careful when I buy something from them.

 

That, unfortunately, is where I currently stand with comics.

 

KA.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I have to agree with KA. I am in the process of opening a store and, in my planning, have discovered that comics ahve a minimum margin of 50% on new issues while back issues are all gravy, essentially. Game products have an even higher margin. Now, as a store owner I don't want my establishment to become a library. If I'd wanted that, I'd open an adult bookstore, lol. But I do understand that comics are ridiculously overpriced and it's only for one reason - greed. Corporate greed and creator greed. In an ever shrinking market their greed grows ever larger. So, I tend to graze and sample myself and see no justification not to.

 

Vigil

[casualplayer]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Wheeeee, I love paying $2.25 for a prelude and get to wait a month for the story to advance another step at its glacial pace. Nope, gonna wait for the trade. That's if the art team holds up (I like Finch) and the writing doesn't deteriorate too badly.

 

Didn't care for surly Cap, in the same way I didn't like Waid's Mr. Fantastic yelling at Franklin. Realistic doesn't mean prick. Spider-Man will only be able to continue to participate in this team with massive hand-waving for the reasons shown in the book. Can't be the Webslinger if there is nothing to sling webs to; Spidey blows in a non-urban setting. Bendis needs Electro-shock therapy, because he is way, way too fond of that villain. Imagine if he had such a hard-on for the Vulture; we'ld have Ultimate Vulture and new, improved Vulture and Disassembled Vulture. This is the comic textbook-definition of a vanity piece.

 

Congrats on your comic store plans Vigil but I hope you have done the math. I'd rather play Blackjack for a living than sell comics (again) to pay my bills. Until you get into moving double digits of an issue over ordering by just one issue devours all your profits. Current store owners can help with recent numbers but I used to have to sell 5 issues/month minimum just to justify carrying a title and that was zero sum (expences=income, no profit.) With the plethora of trades, back issues are not gravy. They will take over your store and crowd out product that moves, say a full line of HERO. Maybe Canada is different but in the US all those long boxes of back issues mean an evil inventory tax bill at the end of the year. You would be better off carrying bulk dog food than shelf after shelf of back issues.

[jackalope]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I started collecting the Avengers again when Busiek and Perez were doing the series. It just hasn't been the same since that partnership ended on the series. Marvel continues to butcher and destroy the comics I have loved for over 25 years. And the way the deaths that Bendis wrote for Scott Lang' date=' Hawkeye, Vision and Jack of Hearts (all characters I loved) were just plain wrong. They completely lacked the heroic endings each of these characters deserved. Bendis needs to take a long holiday and stay away from Marvel titles for a while so that these characters can go on without his mucking up the formulas that worked for so long with these characters.[/quote']

 

Take this opinion, reverse it entirely, and you have my opinion.

 

I didn't care about the Avengers when Busiek and Perez were doing. I thought they were boring and formulaic. I think overall Marvel continues to lead the field while everyone else lags behind, managing to tell good, interesting, entertaining stories without resorting to shock, gross humor, big boobs, etc. I thought the deaths Bendis wrote were perfect. I'm surprised anyone cares about Ant-Man II or Jack of Hearts. I thought Hawkeye's death was perfect. I'm glad Bendis is getting a chance to rework the team concept, which had grown stale and was hard to distinguish from the competition.

 

Also, I really wish everyone would stop refering to the Vision as dead. And that includes Marvel. The Vision is not dead. He's been radically dismantled. That's not dead. He can be rebuilt and restored. This isn't even the first time it's happened!

 

Does anyone else notice that the New Avengers consist almost entirely of the Secret War crew? Captain America, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Spider-Man, soon Wolverine. All fought in Nick Fury's Secret War. Interesting that... Also, Spider-Woman has the obvious SHIELD connection, and Sentry is a prisoner of SHIELD...hmm.

 

Thought the issue was pretty good. Very nice use of Electro, always good to see him recognized as the competant and effective career criminal he is. He's not Master Villain capable (as he's proven with his failed attempts to lead the Sinister Six), but he's smart enough to be left to plan his own missions. A "smart pawn" as it were.

 

The Giant Super-Villain Breakout is a bit overdone, but they do need to happen fairly frequently to keep the whole Marvel world spinning. Of course, they haven't actually gotten away yet...

[jackalope]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

The owner of the shop I go to encourages me to sit down and read anything I want, with no pressure to buy. I never abuse the priviledge, but I do read a lot of things that look interesting or I hear good things about that I end up not picking up.

 

It's one of the major reasons I shop there and not elsewhere.

[Blue]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I never read anything in the store. I may flip through pages of something new to see if anything about it grabs me, but that's it. But there are typically half a dozen guys there on Wednesdays standing around blocking the aisles and reading the comics with no complaints from the management.

 

I think that it's been many years since comics told any tale at a reasonable pace. Since every storyline is stretched into 6-8 issue storylines and the books are often filled with full page drawings, a single issue often feels unfulfilling. For that reason Trades are better.

 

But I hate waiting, and especially on something like this. Because by the time the TPB comes out I'd know the whole storyline.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I'm inclined to agree with Casualplayer, and I think he very succinctly pointed out one of the flaws with all "mature" toned books (and Vertigo is the greatest offender here and always has been). That flaw is that negative doesn't equal mature. Drug addicted doesn't equal mature. Cynical or cranky or psychotic or neurotic or homicidal or suicidal doesn't equal mature. In fact, it tends to be just the oppisite. I think those titles should be labelled, "for Immature" or "adolescent" or "repressed" or "juvenille but pretensious" readers. I think what such title really succeed in doing is removing the joy and wonder and fun from comics. I guess, if you're BMB that's laudable. If you're a serious writer, it's deplorable.

 

Vigil

[casualplayer]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

You gotta be able to read books in the store, as long as it's understood that "You break it, you bought it." If it's not 9.0 mint when it gets back to the shelf it's yours. Otherwise you can't get anyone to try anything new that hasn't been pimped on Comic Shop News or Wizard. All you would be selling is X-crement and choking out the garden with weeds.

 

I just realized that if this New Avengers book was called New Defenders, and you replaced Spider-Man with say Beast, I would unequivocally love this book. The feel of this book is very Defender-ish, the good old days with Valkyrie and Gargoyle.

 

Is it just me or is the team name Avengers kinda geared to antagonize? Almost but not quite as bad as the Justice League of America but awfully close. It's like they are the Retribution Squad, but that probably wouldn't have sold as well. The Pre-emptive Warriors? The Vindicators? The Ugly Americans? The Lounge-around-the-mansion-til-you-mess-with-us-then-we'll-wreak-havoc-ers?

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Bendis is a two-bit hack. We're talking Austen territory here.

[Sketchpad]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I looked through and refuse to buy it ... I already collect a plethora of titles that I enjoy reading As for New Avengers ... IMHO, it's garbage.

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I'm inclined to agree with Casualplayer, and I think he very succinctly pointed out one of the flaws with all "mature" toned books (and Vertigo is the greatest offender here and always has been). That flaw is that negative doesn't equal mature. Drug addicted doesn't equal mature. Cynical or cranky or psychotic or neurotic or homicidal or suicidal doesn't equal mature. In fact, it tends to be just the oppisite. I think those titles should be labelled, "for Immature" or "adolescent" or "repressed" or "juvenille but pretensious" readers. I think what such title really succeed in doing is removing the joy and wonder and fun from comics. I guess, if you're BMB that's laudable. If you're a serious writer, it's deplorable.

 

Vigil

I'll keep that in mind the next time I pick up a new trade for Sandman Mystery Theatre, 100 Bullets, Fables, or Y the last man.

[Sketchpad]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I'll keep that in mind the next time I pick up a new trade for Sandman Mystery Theatre' date=' 100 Bullets, Fables, or Y the last man.[/quote']

Y The Last Man ... what a GREAT comic

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Sandman Mystery Theatre had it's good points, I'll admit and Fables (while I've never read it) is by one of my all times faves, Bill Willingham. What I'm railing against is not so much individual instances of Vertigo as the philosophy behind it. That being that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. That's garbage and if writers like Milligan, Morrisson (to some extent), BMB, et al had ever graduated from Philosophy 100 they'd know that. That's what I'm saying. In my eyes, "Hulk smash!" is a lot mor honest and meaningful than anything to come out of Shade The Changing Man. Something about putting lipstick on a pig...unless, it's gamma irradiated.

 

Vigil

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Sandman Mystery Theatre had it's good points, I'll admit and Fables (while I've never read it) is by one of my all times faves, Bill Willingham. What I'm railing against is not so much individual instances of Vertigo as the philosophy behind it. That being that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. That's garbage and if writers like Milligan, Morrisson (to some extent), BMB, et al had ever graduated from Philosophy 100 they'd know that. That's what I'm saying. In my eyes, "Hulk smash!" is a lot mor honest and meaningful than anything to come out of Shade The Changing Man. Something about putting lipstick on a pig...unless, it's gamma irradiated.

 

Vigil

Ok. The philosophy behind Vertigo has never been that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. If you can find that in print somewhere I will gladly take back my last statement. Now I will say that Vertigo has put out some titles that I have had problems with. (I would have a hard time recommending 'The Eaters' to anyone.) But so has every other company. By saying that a comic book company only puts out cynical comics when you can point out several titles that are not, you are doing a disservice to any author that happens to be working for that company who is not putting out crap. Now I hate what they did to the Avengers. It has that 'Death of Superman' reek to it. I think we are in firm agreement on that point. I just disagree with your sweeping generalization of a company that has put out titles that would not ever make it in the halls of spandex and capes.