I don't think I can move

[Sean Waters]

Mental paralysis: too cheap or what?

 

For a +1/2 advantage you get a power that most folk have no real defence against, and it is disporoprtionally effective against those that do.

 

Unless you have a lot more characters than I do with damage causing ego attacks or EGO over 20, MP is a show stopper. Literally.

 

60 active points are the avarage for the campaign. Almost everyone will have the equivalent of a 12d6 attack against PD or ED. A very few will have a 6d6 Ego Attack.

 

A 6d6 entangle against a 12 dice attack. Out in one phase on average.

 

A 4d6 MP against a 20 Ego. Goodnight Vienna. 1 in 3 will do damage, so you'll be stuck for 12 phases, during which you can be physically attacked with impunity. Ludicrous. Even a dedicated Ego Blaster will take 2 phases on average to break free. You can push, but if you do you're going to be all tired when you do get out.

 

Actually I'm going to modify/add to the initial question: Mental Paralysis - should it be an Entangle or a single command Mind Control?

 

The level of the MC will depend on the situation and if you are desperate you can have a better chance of breaking the mental paralysis. Seems about right.

 

While I'm on the subject: the extra BODY or DEF adder. Crazy talk, scrap that. For the same points as above you could have a 1 BODY 7 DEF Ego attack that no one without offensive mental powers and with an Ego of 20 or less is likely to get out of anytime soon, even if they do push.

 

Just too powerful for the points.

 

Am I wrong?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Mental paralysis: too cheap or what?

No.

For a +1/2 advantage you get a power that most folk have no real defence against

No, it's a +1 1/2 Advantage. Don't forget, you need both Based On ECV (+1) and the two Entangle Advantages (Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks, and Works Against EGO, Not STR).

Actually I'm going to modify/add to the initial question: Mental Paralysis - should it be an Entangle or a single command Mind Control?

It's workable either way, for slightly differing effects.

While I'm on the subject: the extra BODY or DEF adder. Crazy talk, scrap that. For the same points as above you could have a 1 BODY 7 DEF

No you can't. The DEF can't be more than 2x the dice. (H5E, page 109.

Am I wrong?

Yep.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

TheRealLemming, There are a couple of points on which you're wrong.

 

Firstly it's not a +1/2 advantage. To make Mental Paralysis you have to buy BOECV (+1 in it's basic form) and then another +1/2 in mandatory advantages (Works against EGO, not STR for +1/4 and Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks for a further +1/4) making it actually a +1 1/2 Advantage in total. It's possible to get BOECV in a slightly different form (i.e. with range modifiers) at a slightly reduced value (+3/4) but it's still going to cost you at minimum a +1 1/4 advantage for Mental Paralysis.

 

Secondly, the total DEF for an Entangle can't be more than twice the BODY, unless you take the Entangle Has 1 BODY Limitation, which due to the way it functions (it only counts as a limitation on the points you spend on BODY dice) won't save very much if you have bumped up the DEF - so in fact you can't get a 7 DEF 1 BODY Mental Paralysis for the same cost as a 4 DEF 4 BODY. What you could get for the same cost is 5 DEF 3 BODY.

 

Edit: Yeah I noticed Derek just covered most of this lot already. The site wasn't responding when I first tried to submit my reply and it took forever to process my submission.

[Just Joe]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Mind you, a 2d6, 3 DEF mental paralysis for 62 active points is nothing to sneeze at (if you're not a mentalist), but it doesn't strike me as particularly unbalancing.

[Rapier]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Mental paralysis: too cheap or what?

 

For a +1/2 advantage you get a power that most folk have no real defence against, and it is disporoprtionally effective against those that do.

Um. No. BOECV is +1. You would also need a couple of the Entangle advantages/adders (too lazy to look it up), but I think those others are going to add another +1/2 to +1. ECV Entangles get REALLY expensive real fast.

[Just Joe]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Am I wrong?

 

Yes, you are. See, it should really be a + 1 1/2 advantage because . . .

 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Peer pressure.

[Intrope]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

It's fair to note that even at +1 1/2, Mental Entangle is still very efficient.

 

With 3 DEF, 2d6, a 62ap Mental Entangle:

Will cost a 20 EGO character a phase and a half

Will cost a 15 EGO character about 4 and a half phases

Will cost a 10 EGO character many phases (they only damage it 1/12 of the time)

A Mentalist with 6d6 EGO attack will lose a half phase, unless they roll 7 BODY (fairly likely), in which case it's zero-phase.

 

All this ignores pushing.

 

I'd say that's pretty powerful--most 350 supers probably don't have a 20 EGO unless they're mentalists--and 4-5 phases is frequently the whole combat! (not to mention that whole 0 DCV bit).

 

Moreover, most of the escape powers probably wouldn't apply to mental entagles (you might be able to teleport or fly if it's triggered mentally, but you still couldn't move).

 

It seems more powerful than 60ap of entangle on average--I'd think more people could escape the normal entangle (or ignore it, in the case of the mentalist!)

 

Perhaps the total advantage value should be greater than +1 1/2?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Am I wrong?

 

Yep.

 

Thank goodness for that.

[Silbeg]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

There is also a limitation that you could require...

 

-1/2 Mental DEF adds to EGO - I like this, becuase it does portray that having Mental DEF will make you more resistent to the effects.

 

That being said, the average character, who hasn't spent any points on EGO (I always advocate spending at least 2 for EGO 11, but more usually 8 for EGO 14, but that is another story), will have trouble getting out. But, remember, that the average mentalist will probably have the same difficulty getting out of a 6d6 6 DEF normal entangle his 10-15 STR... actually, the average character will be able to get out of the Mental Paralysis more easily!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Secondly' date=' the total DEF for an Entangle can't be more than twice the BODY, unless you take the [i']Entangle Has 1 BODY[/i] Limitation, which due to the way it functions (it only counts as a limitation on the points you spend on BODY dice) won't save very much if you have bumped up the DEF - so in fact you can't get a 7 DEF 1 BODY Mental Paralysis for the same cost as a 4 DEF 4 BODY. What you could get for the same cost is 5 DEF 3 BODY.

 

4d6 Mental Paralysis 40 x 2.5 = 100

 

16d 7 DEF mental paralysis: 70 x 2.5 = 175/1.5 = 117

 

Not that much more expensive.

 

This raises an issue on entangle in general, though. Why not just scrap the +1d6 or +1 DEF for 5 points rule, and allow dice to be purchased with either no DEF or no BOD using the limitations? It doesn't make sense that +3 Def costs 15 and +3d6 BOD costs 15 when 3d6 1 BOD costs 20 and 3d6 no DEF costs 12.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

4d6 Mental Paralysis 40 x 2.5 = 100

 

16d 7 DEF mental paralysis: 70 x 2.5 = 175/1.5 = 117

 

Not that much more expensive.

 

Fair point. I agree with you, because let's face it most of the restraining power of an Entangle comes from its DEF, not its BODY. BODY only increases the amount of time it will take to break out, where DEF determines whether a particular character has any chance to break out at all. I think it should be a -1/4 limitation, not -1/2.

 

175 / 1.25 = 140. Seems more reasonable.

 

This raises an issue on entangle in general, though. Why not just scrap the +1d6 or +1 DEF for 5 points rule, and allow dice to be purchased with either no DEF or no BOD using the limitations? It doesn't make sense that +3 Def costs 15 and +3d6 BOD costs 15 when 3d6 1 BOD costs 10 and 3d6 no DEF costs 6.

 

3 DEF 1 BOD costs 10? doesn't it cost 20? (30 / 1.5) = 20

 

likewise, doesn't 3d6 no DEF cost 12? (30 / 2.5) = 12

 

Otherwise, I see what you're saying. I don't know about scrapping the idea of buying BODY and DEF separately though, but it seems that DEF is worth more than BODY and the value of the limitations (-1 1/2 vs. -1/2) recognises that, so maybe the balance should be different.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I can move again! Thank you all!

 

I am slightly concerned about entangle in general: for most characters it means losing a half phase for a campaign average attack. MP may mean a little more for the average character (11 or 14 Ego: me too).

 

You can do the same thing far more devastatingly with a speed drain for far less points.

 

OK, apples and oranges, but it is all fruit, and losing time in combat can be very disabling, but, given that there is no ongoing effect entangles have almost seemed pointless except as a multipower slot for dealing with the odd normal or mentalist that you can't be bothered to EB.

 

Maybe that is either just me, or the problem with balancing active point totals.

 

I do have a solution though. In 'pure Hero' terms it is messy, in that it doesn't use multiples of 5, but that ground has been broken...

 

You can buy Body and Def seperately, in fact you have to. Body costs 4 points per point, and DEF costs 6 points per point. Never mind the rule about the minimum DEF/Body ratio.

 

Your 60 AP entangle can therefore be:

 

a)6d6/6 DEF as before, or

b)10 DEF/0 Body, or

c)15 d6/0 DEF, or

d)some combination

 

I agree that DEF is more useful than BODY, hence the point weighting. The 'basic power" costs the same, but you can have 10 DEF (most characters can break out losing half a phase, but characters without physical/energy attacks will be there a long time) or 15 Body - most characters will be stuck one full phase, but anyone can break out eventually.

 

I've even considered making it 7 points for DEF and 3 for BODY, which would make it (for a 63 point power ) 9 DEF or 20 BODY, which means that a 'BODY only' entangle could hold an average character for 2 full phases.

 

The above takes no account of pushing or 'haymakering'. (My own view is youcan't haymaker in an entangle: it is weak enough as it is. Pushing is perfectly valid, of course)

[BNakagawa]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

The fundamental problem with lowering the cost of a body pip's worth of entangle is that it mucks with the 5points/dc metarule.

 

Now, it's trivial to make an entangle that will, most of the time, contain a character with equivalent active points in attack for at least one phase.

 

15 dice of pure body entangle vs 12d6 (or 4d6ka)

 

so, I glop you with the 15 body entangle, you don't quite break out and next phase, I switch to 6d6 NND, or autofire NND or something equally ghastly and hit you 5 times or more...

 

I don't have a problem with def costing more than body. I just don't want body to be cheaper than an EB.

 

There's no fundamental reason that the cost of the body and the cost of the def of an entangle has to add up to the cost of a vanilla die of entangle...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I've generally not had much problems with Mental Paralysis, except when it's used on Agents (who are generally not expected to take more than one shot before being rendered useless). There's also the possibility of a friendly telepath breaking you out of it (FREd specifies that damage-dealing mental attacks do damage Mental Paralysises).

 

As a house rule, I usually give bonus breakout dice if someone's Psych Lim or Enraged/Berserk is being triggered while in the Paralysis (presuming that satisfying the Lim requires escaping the entangle). +2d6 for a Strong Psych Lim, +4d6 for a Total Psych Lim, +2d6 for Enraged and +4d6 for Berserk. Part of this was because I had a pack of players who refused to take any Psych Lims beyond Moderate. So now, a 20pt. Code vs Killing can get you out of a Paralysis faster.

[Rapier]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

As a house rule' date=' I usually give bonus breakout dice if someone's Psych Lim or Enraged/Berserk is being triggered while in the Paralysis (presuming that satisfying the Lim requires escaping the entangle). +2d6 for a Strong Psych Lim, +4d6 for a Total Psych Lim, +2d6 for Enraged and +4d6 for Berserk. Part of this was because I had a pack of players who refused to take any Psych Lims beyond Moderate. So now, a 20pt. Code vs Killing can get you out of a Paralysis faster. [/quote']

Now there's a thought. That does make a lot of sense.

 

Not that we often see mental entangles.

[DrFurious]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

As a house rule' date=' I usually give bonus breakout dice if someone's Psych Lim or Enraged/Berserk is being triggered while in the Paralysis (presuming that satisfying the Lim requires escaping the entangle). +2d6 for a Strong Psych Lim, +4d6 for a Total Psych Lim, +2d6 for Enraged and +4d6 for Berserk. Part of this was because I had a pack of players who refused to take any Psych Lims beyond Moderate. So now, a 20pt. Code vs Killing can get you out of a Paralysis faster. [/quote']

 

I understand your reasoning but something within me cringes at the thought of taking a disadvantage to give you an in-game benefit. If you're going to go in that direction, why not spend points to buy disadvantages. In effect, you can make a distinction between an Enraged that provides only useful effects and one that provides only negative effects. IMO, a disadvantage should be in the latter category unless you're looking to change the definition of a disadvantage.

[Magmarock]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I had a situation in a game, recently, when a speedster PC was mentally entangled (by Arcana's Ghost-Chains: an Entangle BOECV, Affect Desolids).

 

Shortly after being entangled thus, the player wanted to use his PC's Desolid power to escape and I told him he couldn't, based on the SFX of the Desolid (he vibrated his body so fast that he became Desolid). If it were a non-physical power, trigger by mental thought, like if it were spirit or wind SFX, I may have ruled otherwise. Regardless, the Entangle was legally bought to Affect Desolid, so the PC would still have been entangled.

 

But this brought up a point in the game where SFX comes into play and can sometimes trump the rules. I'd like to hear some comments, yay or nay, on my GM ruling. Was I wrong or right?

 

 

Mags

[Mark Taylor]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I understand your reasoning but something within me cringes at the thought of taking a disadvantage to give you an in-game benefit. If you're going to go in that direction' date=' why not [b']spend points[/b] to buy disadvantages. In effect, you can make a distinction between an Enraged that provides only useful effects and one that provides only negative effects. IMO, a disadvantage should be in the latter category unless you're looking to change the definition of a disadvantage.

 

A Disadvantage can already provide an in-game benefit, by the book. Check the Presence Attack Modifiers table on 5E page 288. When a Presence Attack made against you conflicts with one of your Psychological Limitations it subtracts 1 to 3 dice from the Presence Attack. That amounts to (substantially) improved defence against Presence Attacks in the right circumstances, a palpable in-game benefit.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I had a situation in a game, recently, when a speedster PC was mentally entangled (by Arcana's Ghost-Chains: an Entangle BOECV, Affect Desolids).

 

Shortly after being entangled thus, the player wanted to use his PC's Desolid power to escape and I told him he couldn't, based on the SFX of the Desolid (he vibrated his body so fast that he became Desolid). If it were a non-physical power, trigger by mental thought, like if it were spirit or wind SFX, I may have ruled otherwise. Regardless, the Entangle was legally bought to Affect Desolid, so the PC would still have been entangled.

 

But this brought up a point in the game where SFX comes into play and can sometimes trump the rules. I'd like to hear some comments, yay or nay, on my GM ruling. Was I wrong or right?

 

You need only look to the rulebook for a comment on your ruling:

 

 

 

Affects Desolidified: An Affects Desolidified Entangle can hit Desolidified characters and cannot be escaped with Desolidification.

 

 

The rules say you were right, in fact they say your ruling didn't even trump the rules, it followed them. Even further, you probably didn't even need to build the Entangle with Affects Desolidified to get the desired affect. According to the Rules FAQ:

 

 

 

Q: Does a BOECV Entangle affect Desolidified characters without the need for the Affects Desolidified Advantage?

 

A: Yes, because it’s based on an ECV Attack Roll.

 

Edit: Rewrote this post to clean it up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

3 DEF 1 BOD costs 10? doesn't it cost 20? (30 / 1.5) = 20

 

likewise, doesn't 3d6 no DEF cost 12? (30 / 2.5) = 12

 

I was hoping no one would quote me before I edited...too slow, I suppose.

 

In fairness, while most Entangles I see that aren't even DEF/BOD buy up the DEF to make it harder to escape, I have built one with more dice than DEF to make it easier to spread and use for barriers. Even so, I think a die of BOD should cost less than +1 DEF (which seems to be more or less agreeable to most respondents).

 

I'm inclined to use the 1.5 and 0.5 limitations on those dice which lack either DEF or BOD, respectively. +1s6 BOD costs 10/2.5 = 4 under this approach, while +1 DEF costs 6 2/3, for a total of 10 2/3. Close enough to 10 for me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I understand your reasoning but something within me cringes at the thought of taking a disadvantage to give you an in-game benefit.

 

I'm Ok with this as long as the drawbacks (heavily) outweigh the benefits. To deny disad's which sometimes have beenfits can elimionate a lot of disad's. If you're blind, that's Immune to Sight Flashes. Deaf is Immune to Hearing Flashes. No legs? Immune to Drain: Running.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

A Disadvantage can already provide an in-game benefit' date=' by the book. Check the Presence Attack Modifiers table on 5E page 288. When a Presence Attack made against you conflicts with one of your Psychological Limitations it subtracts 1 to 3 dice from the Presence Attack. That amounts to (substantially) improved defence against Presence Attacks in the right circumstances, a palpable in-game benefit.[/quote']

 

Ditto for Mind Control. Of course, if somehow the Psych Lim encourages the target to remain in the Entangle (I admit, I can't think of one right now ... but it *could* happen), I should probably reverse the bonus into a Penalty.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

I was hoping no one would quote me before I edited...too slow' date=' I suppose.[/quote']

 

Sorry dude, it's not so much that I didn't notice you edited as that there are two copies of your post, and I read and responded to the first one, which you didn't edit. I assumed the second was just a duplicate post and didn't expect it to be any different. Maybe you should go back and delete the first one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Maybe you should go back and delete the first one.

 

Thanks. Done.

 

[i could have sworn I was editing it.]

 

I don't know about Psych Lim's encouraging staying in the Entangle, but as long as you can still see the battle, why would a Mentalist ever want out? The extra DEF also makes it a nice time to spend a phase changing a VPP, etc.

[Magmarock]

Re: I don't think I can move

 

Even further' date=' you probably didn't even need to build the entangle with Affects Desolidified to get the desired affect.[/quote']

 

I didn't build the character. Arcanna was one of Etherio's PCs. Check out post #2450 in the Superhero Images thread. (on page 49 for me, but I have my page preference set to 50 posts per page, so it might not be the same page for you).

 

 

Etherio posted the character somewhere around here and I borrowed it (with his permission). She has been a pain in my hero group's collective asses ever since.

What fun!

 

 

Mags