BobGreenwade Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Remember in The Ultimate Mentalist, where there was a discussion of Mental Powers Based on INTo or PRE? I personally like the idea of letting one or two characters have Mental Powers Based on COM. This would presume the sort of ability where someone with lower COM would tend to be more susceptible, usually with Seduction-based Powers (most of the Powers would also have the Limitations Only Versus Those Of Appropriate Gender And Orientation and Requires A Seduction Roll -- though this wouldn't have to be a 100% rule). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM This would presume the sort of ability where someone with lower COM would tend to be more susceptible, usually with Seduction-based Powers (most of the Powers would also have the Limitations Only Versus Those Of Appropriate Gender And Orientation and Requires A Seduction Roll -- though this wouldn't have to be a 100% rule). Maybe a Limitation that COM replaces EGO if it's higher? A stroing-willed ugly person won't be swayed, but a gorgeous scatterbrain won't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM If any of you get Digital Hero, Steve discusses COM and some optional benefits in DH #23's Heroglyphs. Some pretty cool ideas there. Basically, He divides COM into 3 categories (can't look them up right now, and don't want to gove too much away), and then for every 2 points of COM, you get to add +1 to a skill that is associated with those subcategories. I am seriously concidering adding this to my game. It isn't really unblalancing (there are some limits to how much you can add to any skill), and would allow some differentiation between how people perceive their characters. In addition to Steve's concept, I was figuring you could just rework the Reputation Perk so that attractiveness has the same game effect it does in other games (GURPS, Eden Studios' Buffy/Angel). Basically, take the modifier for a national sized group (all those who would be attracted to that gender) make it an 11- roll (beauty is subjective, and only goes so far) and that costs 2 per +1d6. 2 points is equal to a 14 COM in HERO. Noticeably attractive. 4 points is equal to an 18 COM, Hollywood star level. This is +2 on the bonus, and a strong modifier. 6 points is equal to a 20-22 COM, supermodel level and pushing the limits of Normal Characteristic Maxima. This gives a +3 with certain PRE Skills, and is worth +3d6 on certain PRE Attacks. That's my theory, anyway. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I have seen a school of argument indicating to get rid of COM and replace it with Perks. That would be reasonable, but I just hate to see the old stat go. Hmmm, thread idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I'm afraid I don't really see the difference between having the COM stat and having a COM talent and I find having the COM stat is quicker for checking how good looking the character is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I'm afraid I don't really see the difference between having the COM stat and having a COM talent and I find having the COM stat is quicker for checking how good looking the character is. It also provides more variation of COM between characters (even if there is no game effect). T^he "rep" suggestion sessentially sets breakpoints every 5 COM, so why treat it different than a Stat roll. [We could have Talenst like Hardy, Mighty and Sturdy to replace CON, SR and BOD, too - M&M has a STR stat and a "supersrong" power, so we could also have both. But why mess with it if it ain't broken!] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I'm afraid I don't really see the difference between having the COM stat and having a COM talent and I find having the COM stat is quicker for checking how good looking the character is. Yes, but we all know you're a devil-worshipping extremist. Oh wait, you're on my side...I mean you're the voice of reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Yes, but we all know you're a devil-worshipping extremist. Oh wait, you're on my side...I mean you're the voice of reason! It's such a fine line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp9 Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I'm afraid I don't really see the difference between having the COM stat and having a COM talent and I find having the COM stat is quicker for checking how good looking the character is. I don't believe that there is a big difference. And you are right, knowing where to find the stat makes it easier than the alternative in some ways. The counter argument would be mostly a matter of making it easier for newbies. Having COM as a stat means that newbies must deal with it up front. And COM becomes one more stat in a fairly sizable list of stats that may be intimidating to some people who are new to the game. Having COM as a talent means that you don't have to think about it or write it on your sheet unless you want to make use of it. Again more of a good thing for newbies. The other advantage to COM as a talent is that it would probably spell out what each level means, rather than just having a number. We might look at COM 14 in different ways, but it might be easier to agree on ratings like: attractive, beautiful, extremely beautiful, etc. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Maybe a Limitation that COM replaces EGO if it's higher? A stroing-willed ugly person won't be swayed' date=' but a gorgeous scatterbrain won't either.[/quote']That works too. Though a Mental Power Based On COM could also work against Comeliness Combat Value (CCV; COM/3). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM I'm still liking the "positive rep" thang...I think if I were to use it ,I'd set the various Com reps as a "virtual COM" stat so "Built like a brick house" (A Very common skil for female supers) is a positive rep vs lots of people almost all the time, so it should run 3 points a level so it generates 6 points of virtual Com, so if you've got 3 levels of "brick housness" and base COM is 8-10 your virtual Com is 26-28....jaws drop when you enter a room (+3D6 Pres) and traffic jams occur when you walk by....librarians just drool when you ask to get into the restricted stacks (+3 with conversation/seduction/etc....) but now its a set effect...the male equivilent of "brick house" is something like "bad boy vibe"...so Thats how Bond does it.....so you can give example of each level 1 point rep (some people, often) is 1 point so that give 2 points of virtual rep....stuf like "Curvy", 2 points works either vs some almost always or Most, some of the time...such as "fashionista" or "You can put an eye out" and 3 pointers work on almost everyone , most of the time, so 2 pointer are +4 virtual Com , and 3 pointers are +6.....mix and match as desired...Viola! its a "Talent" And a stat!..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Viola! its a "Talent" And a stat!..... Given that 5th Edition Talents are basically reverse-engineered as Powers, I thought that made sense. JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM 1 Is COM just fluff? Well, it only costs 1 point for 2 and has little 'official' in game effect, so yes. However, in real life it is often important, so if the game is going to be a reasonable representation of people's expectations it shouldn't be. 2 Should it be changed? Talents specific to a certain type of COM better approximate my experience of how people judge COM: it is highly individual. However, a single stat is easier to use in game, and requires less preparation for NPCs (well, would she prefer a big nose or a litle nose?) 3 Do you have any way of determining COM in the real world? I don't. Someone mentioned 20-24 COM for supermodels. I don't find a lot of supermodels attractive (not that the'd necessarily get kicked out of bed for eating crisps, but....). Too skinny would be one criticism I would aim at a lot of them, and probably miss, as there is so little target... I can't even define one or two characteristics that I find attractive, particularly. Blue eyes in one face and brown in another...redhead, blond, brunette, pale skin, dark skin, slim, voluptuous, whatever. I could pretty comprehensively define unattractive, but I'm sure there are exceptions even there... I could tell you who I fancy and who I don't fancy, and I may be willing to do a Blunkett in certain situations, but generally speaking COM is a reasonably neutral issue in my dealings with others (I hope). (David Blunkett is a recently disgraced British politician who had an affair and did various favours for his mistress. He's blind. How does he perceive COM? Presumably on a very different set of values...) Actually that is a point: you smell nice, you have a lovely voice, soft skin, you taste of....yes, well, you get the idea....one person's great is another's grating... 4 Can you use COM as a substitute for other characetristics (like EGO, INT and PRE) Well, yes, you could, but I think COM, more than any other characteristic, is affected by self image. You can be gorgeous and think you are not or ugly as sin but you attract members of your chosen sex. I mean, Jack Nicholson; what's going on there? I don't think it would work well...and it is cheap. One of the reasons EGO costs so much is that it is used to power and resist mental attacks. If you could MC based on COM, for the same price as 20 EGO, you could have 50 COM. Wrong. In conclusion, I have no idea, but I think I favour ditching COM entirely and using it as a sfx for powers, talents and skills. More work, but worth it, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM However' date=' in real life it is often important, so if the game is going to be a reasonable representation of people's expectations it shouldn't be.[/quote'] The game is based on heroic fiction, though, not real life. I'm just stating this as I always think that must be considered INSTEAD of real life in these discussions. However, it doesn't change your resulting comment as COM plays a vaguely similar role in heroic fiction, it's eye/sensory candy and not that big a determinant of anything. However, I would add something important here - heroes tend to have greater COM, and so the costing of COM to be cheap makes sense in that context. Just as I have long-maintained that STR tends to be way common among heroes and villains (and even lesser non-aligned NPCs) and so the idea of upping its cost is contrary to the general genre being simulated. I don't. Someone mentioned 20-24 COM for supermodels. I don't find a lot of supermodels attractive (not that the'd necessarily get kicked out of bed for eating crisps, but....). Too skinny would be one criticism I would aim at a lot of them, and probably miss, as there is so little target... Just as a pure aside, I think supermodels are the wrong focus of COM as compared to simply popular entertainment figures in general. Supermodels have a very specific delivery/job. I agree, most of them are not turn-ons for me - in fact that annoying ligerie ad where the women coo in bad acting tone "And me" regarding how "special" they are makes them all seem particularly unlikable. As to your conclusion, I really don't know, I'd like to keep it but admit that's as much out of nostalgia for the original system. From a more objective position, I find this a difficult decision in general. I do think that COM calls into question just how far we go - it affects very little DIRECTLY and let's compare something DRAMATIC here that got THROWN AWAY as a per-points value - SIZE! The game recently threw out size as anything you pay for. If you are 20' tall, then you just are 20' tall. There are some pluses and minuses, and 5ER has a nice size chart to explain those. But you don't pay or do anything specifically on your sheet besides note it. This really calls into question maintaining COM as a char instead of just creating a Perk for positive levels of COM while maintaining Distinctive Features for the more disadvantageous (including extremely high COM) COM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Hmm. Strength is easily defined (you can lift 1.6 kilo tons...), COM isn't (you can break 970 hearts...), at least as a single figure. I'd be happy enough to leave it: it hasn't reallly bothered me, but I wouldn't 'add value' unless I added cost. Making COM a sfx for powers skills and talents seems far more comprehensible to me. You could still be good looking for a few points, well so long as you weren't playing Captain Marvel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 Re: Adding value to COM Remember in The Ultimate Mentalist, where there was a discussion of Mental Powers Based on INTo or PRE? I personally like the idea of letting one or two characters have Mental Powers Based on COM. This would presume the sort of ability where someone with lower COM would tend to be more susceptible, usually with Seduction-based Powers (most of the Powers would also have the Limitations Only Versus Those Of Appropriate Gender And Orientation and Requires A Seduction Roll -- though this wouldn't have to be a 100% rule). Oh no, bad high-school flashbacks. Stunning Good Looks: Ego Blast, Based on COM value One little favor: 10 STR TK, 0 END, Requires willing slave, Based on COM value Not going to be sweet talked again: COM Defense Sit there and stare at me for awhile: Entangle, Based on COM value I declare you, officially uncool! Drain COM, Based on COM value Your cool, you're with me Aid COM, Cannot raise friend's COM higher than your own, Based on COM value The mind boggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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