Adding value to COM

[Mark Taylor]

A recurring theme I see in a lot of threads is the idea that COM should have some definite usefulness in game terms. Beyond the suggestion that a COM roll can be complimentary to some interaction skills the rules don't seem to offer anything. I agree, so let's have some suggestions.

 

Here's Mine: For every 5 points of COM above 10, characters receive +1d6 to Presence Attacks intended to impress persons of the appropriate gender and orientation.

 

Anybody else?

[Silbeg]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

On interaction skills, you could use a COM roll as a complementary skill if appropriate. Note, "if appropriate" could mean a lot of things, and not just interaction with a person of the opposite gender, regardless of gender preferrences.

[Almafeta]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I use PB in Palladium and Appearance in Storyteller to determine initiative...

[Rapier]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

A recurring theme I see in a lot of threads is the idea that COM should have some definite usefulness in game terms. Beyond the suggestion that a COM roll can be complimentary to some interaction skills the rules don't seem to offer anything. I agree, so let's have some suggestions.

 

Here's Mine: For every 5 points of COM above 10, characters receive +1d6 to Presence Attacks intended to impress persons of the appropriate gender and orientation.

 

Anybody else?

I allow COM (at the +1d6 / 5 pts level) to affect appearance based PRE attacks and use COM rolls as complementary to Seduction rolls.

 

I just hate COM. Even using it everywhere you reasonably can (which I think I do, as above...at least I can't think of anyplace else to use it) you hardly ever use it. I also think that COM itself is misleading. COM is a measurement of the "first impression sex appeal" of a particular person.

 

Now this is extremely impolitic and I apologise beforehand. There is a girl. She has knobby kness, vericose veins, an ugly fat butt and a face that looks like it was hit repeatedly with a shovel...someone played a drum solo on this girl's face with the ugly stick...BUT she has the greatest pair of [tracts of land] on the planet. So what's her COM? What's her presence? I know a couple of guys that would classify her as a 30 COM, just for that single attribute. I know some guys that would give her a 2. For me? God only knows. I have some friends that would give ALL women a COM of 0.

 

There is a guy I know. We are really good friends. There was a time when EVERYONE (and I do mean everyone) we knew was trying to set us up. It was never going to happen. I, personally, am not attracted to asian men. Nothing wrong with them, I'm just not attracted to them. Now Randy is very attractive, but he does nothing for me. What's his COM? From my viewpoint, does his COM change?

 

I got a friend Scott. Scott LOVES (actually lemme back up bold, underline and increase the font size on that) asian men. Randy and he are like sex starved rabbits in heat that know this is their last night on earth and are dead-set on enjoying it to it's fullest. From Scott's viewpoint, what is Randy's COM?

 

COM (or physical attractiveness) is so subjective. It changes from one person to another. How do you rate that? All the rest of the stats have an actual rating, something you can use as a marker to compare one score against another. Something concrete. A high EGO is always a high EGO. COM is not the same. It's all subjective, and that's my problem with COM.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I've long used a "+1/+1d6 per 5 points when appropriate" house rule, alongside side a "30 COM effective maximum" policy. It works servicably, although I could see where it could be a problem if scores over 30 were usable.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable for COM to represent both physical attractiveness and to some extent personality as well. There are lots of Hollywood stars, such as Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock, who are clearly not "classic" beauties but are still usually considered to be amongst the beautiful people. I think that to some extent because they come off as nice people instead of as gorgeous but mean-spirited bitches like some in show business. Someone who is nice will be considered better looking by most than an identical twin who is mean.

 

I've always treated COM that way simply because the fact is that for many (if not most) people their evaluation of how attractive someone is depends partially on how much they like that person.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Anybody else?

For every doubling of a Follower's COM possessed by the primary character, the loyalty level increases by one. (This explains why gorgeous villainesses always have hideous underlings.)

[Rapier]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable for COM to represent both physical attractiveness and to some extent personality as well. There are lots of Hollywood stars' date=' such as Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock, who are clearly not "classic" beauties but are still usually considered to be amongst the beautiful people. I think that to some extent because they come off as nice people instead of as gorgeous but mean-spirited bitches like some in show business. Someone who is nice will be considered better looking by most than an identical twin who is mean.[/quote']

And I would consider that partly COM and partly PRE. The "they come off as nice people" part is pure PRE. And like you stated, its mostly the PRE that has the greater effect than the COM. A beautiful crabby, bitchy woman is not attractive.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Now Randy is very attractive, but he does nothing for me. What's his COM? From my viewpoint, does his COM change?

 

It sounds like his COM is high, and you recognize that fact, but just aren't responding sexually. In fact, I disagree with the assessment of COM as "first impression sex appeal". Even as a straight male, I can tell that some men are better-looking than others. I'm sure that straight women can tell that some women are better-looking than others. A person can be aesthetically pleasing, but this is neither necessary nor sufficient for them to be "sexy" to everyone of the appropriate gender/orientation.

 

In closing, I have two comments for those who find COM to be useless:

 

1) that's why it's so cheap

2) so don't buy any!

 

Zeropoint

[KA.]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

A beautiful crabby' date=' bitchy woman is not attractive.[/quote']

 

Say what you want about me, but if you insult Joan Collins again, I will be forced to see you on the Field of Honor, Sir!

 

 

KA.

[tracer]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

alongside side a "30 COM effective maximum" policy. It works servicably' date=' although I could see where it could be a problem if scores over 30 were usable.[/quote']

But without COM scores over 30, I wouldn't have been able to make Comeliness Woman!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

And I would consider that partly COM and partly PRE. The "they come off as nice people" part is pure PRE. And like you stated' date=' its mostly the PRE that has the greater effect than the COM.[/quote']I disagree. I think PRE is exactly what it says it is: impressiveness and force of personality. I think it has little if anything to do with likeability or general attractiveness. The two things are not the same. But of course many impressive people are also likely to have above average attractiveness as part of the same toolkit for dealing with people, just as unimpressive nerds may lack good looks and also social skills such as personal hygiene.

 

A beautiful crabby, bitchy woman is not attractive.

On that we totally agree.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

One of the ways that you can make COM more useful is to define the special effect of it better. After all, you don't have just Energy Blast, you throw mystic lightning or fire bolt or raw chi energy or a baterang.

 

The following costs 2 points each, and gives +3 COM and a +1 bonus for Interaction Rolls in limited situations. As Rapier suggests, sometimes this effect backfires.

 

Impressive Clothes

Feral

Prim and Proper

Exotic (Elvish, Alien, Amazonian, the list goes on)

Mystique

Nobility

Down to Earth

Charming Voice

 

So Catwoman has Impressive Clothes and 2 levels of Feral and a level of Mystique (22 COM). But when she's in her normal ID, she has 13 COM (Mystique), but other might find her to be 7 COM (Hates the Mystique would prefer a Down to Earth type).

[Warp9]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I showed up to a game with this girl I was seeing at the time. I built both our characters (so I know what they could do).

 

My character was PRE based, with lots of PRE skills.

 

The Girl's character (and she wanted the character built this way) was a very high COM character, who had a high seduction skill.

 

Maybe the GM was being nice to my girlfriend because he thought she was hot (she was pretty), but my character didn't do as well in the game as her's did.

 

The GM didn't believe in allowing Persuasion rolls, or the like, to have much influence on NPCs. The concept that an NPC should listen to a character because of a dice roll, or "high presence," doesn't make sense to some GMs. And I've known some GMs who say specifically that you only have the charisma that you can play.

 

On the other hand, the GM could more easily imagine the impact that a girl with supermodel looks would have on people, so the high COM had a major impact on character interactions. The NPCs were pretty much willing to go to great lengths in order to make Trisha's character happy.

 

In some games, COM will do more than PRE.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Some interesting points. I like Blue Jogger's suggestions, and Rapier makes some good points about personal preferences not being universal.

 

I’d be inclined to leave COM where it is, but have everyone list three features that make them the COM they are. Use Blue Jogger’s list, but add in pretty much anything: red hair, white teeth, big ears, whatever. Whatever someone looking at the person would notice first. Even if that is a ‘good’ feature for them, not everyone will find it attractive.

 

Everyone ALSO has to list three features they find attractive and three they find unattractive. They can’t be the same. Every time there is a match between your attractive list and the observed individual, add 5 to their effective COM, and take 5 for every feature on the ‘unattractive’ list. This makes COM variable – everyone would know that the observed person is or isn’t attractive by ‘normal’ standards, but their own personal perception could be very different.

 

This works well for alien races: assume they all find flexible skin and hair unattractive, and bingo, we look like the dog’s dinner. Assume that they find bipeds with endoskeletons attractive and you’ll need to beat off the devils with sticks.

[Steve]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

One of the ways that you can make COM more useful is to define the special effect of it better. After all, you don't have just Energy Blast, you throw mystic lightning or fire bolt or raw chi energy or a baterang.

 

The following costs 2 points each, and gives +3 COM and a +1 bonus for Interaction Rolls in limited situations. As Rapier suggests, sometimes this effect backfires.

 

Impressive Clothes

Feral

Prim and Proper

Exotic (Elvish, Alien, Amazonian, the list goes on)

Mystique

Nobility

Down to Earth

Charming Voice

 

So Catwoman has Impressive Clothes and 2 levels of Feral and a level of Mystique (22 COM). But when she's in her normal ID, she has 13 COM (Mystique), but other might find her to be 7 COM (Hates the Mystique would prefer a Down to Earth type).

 

This actually makes quite a bit of sense to me, and it follows along the lines of how Reputation works. Perhaps when 6th Edition comes out, COM can be reworked to have more of a game effect and perhaps could be broken down into some kind of effects categories. For example, a butterfly, a sports car, or a gemstone can be beautiful, but so can a supermodel. Better defining the traits of things in terms of what their beauty means would be an improvement over the current bland structure of COM. Can someone be beautiful without being sexually attractive? Would you give COM to a painting or a work of art? At what point does COM induce a fascination effect in others? It would give a richer feel to this characteristic to better define it in terms of categories, especially for those of us who are esthetically-challenged when it comes to describing things.

[SirViss]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

If any of you get Digital Hero, Steve discusses COM and some optional benefits in DH #23's Heroglyphs. Some pretty cool ideas there.

 

Basically, He divides COM into 3 categories (can't look them up right now, and don't want to gove too much away), and then for every 2 points of COM, you get to add +1 to a skill that is associated with those subcategories.

 

I am seriously concidering adding this to my game. It isn't really unblalancing (there are some limits to how much you can add to any skill), and would allow some differentiation between how people perceive their characters.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Impressive Clothes

Feral

Prim and Proper

Exotic (Elvish, Alien, Amazonian, the list goes on)

Mystique

Nobility

Down to Earth

Charming Voice

My inclination would be to allow COM to represent and all of these traits and any others that seem reasonable in context (this list is certainly not exhaustive), rather than assigning one individual factor. Certainly some characters might well possess several of these attractive features.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I suppose we could just re-define COM as 'A positive (or negative) feeling towards a person or object based solely on sensory perception'

 

This would not (necessarily) mean sexual attractiveness or even beauty, but whatever it is that causes us to react more positively to some people and things than others.

 

The problem will always be subjectivity. You either have to assume everyone has the same tastes or build in some sort of preference selector. Obviously this would be more important in some types of game than others: in the average superhero game, COM is flavour, and if it can do more, you'd build it with powers. If you are in an espionage/intrigue game, it can make a lot of difference.

 

There's been some discussion aboutt he use of PRE/COM. My take is that you can use COM for instant reactions and use PRE for longer term ones. If you want to smile and get the guard to look the other way while you slip by, use COM. If you want to shmooze, use PRE. COM will get you in the front door, PRE will let you operate once you are there.

 

The other option is drop COM completely, and replace it with limited PRE (can not be used defensively -1, only where looks would be an advantage -1/2), so +5 PRE (good looks) would cost 2 points. You can buy multiple levels. You could also buy something similar: +5 PRE (can not be used defensively -1, only where attractive voice would be an advantage -1/2) - or any other aspect of attractiveness, which at least lets you define why the charcter is attractive (looks, voice, body language, whatever)

 

Unattractiveness would be a physical disadvantage. Appearance so hideous it is scary would be either skill levels to intimidation skills, or a PRE bonus in intimidation circumstances.

[Black Rose]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Granted, this would require actually giving Comeliness some sort of in-game effect, but I would recommend creating "Comeliness-Talents". For those of you who've gone to Killer Shrike's Fantasy Her site, you've probably seen the Packages he has made to simulate and improve on the offerings from WotC. One of the (many) nice touches KS added was taking the "name all abilities" idea to the next level. Each bonus to Primary and Secondary Characteristics is named; Hardy or Tireless for CON, Sharp or Clever for INT, you get the idea. Simply take this to Comeliness; every point of Comeliness has to be "defined". Once you realize that Clever!Techie!Girl has +6 COM (defined as "Girls Wearing Glasses Are Hot") +4 COM (defined as "Small And Curvy") and -5 COM (defined as "Babbling Technogeek") you can determine just how much Comeliness actually affects a given person. A person who doesn't think glasses are attractive and dislikes blather might see Clever!Techie!Girl as having a COM of 9 -- her +6 bonus doesn't take effect, but the +4 bonus and the -5 penalty does. OTOH, someone who likes people who can hold their own in a conversation about gravitic converters, digs girls with glasses, but likes the supermodel look would react to a Comeliness of....

 

I just realized something to make this work even better. Sorry for the babble above. Instead of any penalties at all, every point of Comeliness is linked to a descriptor, which can be anything you like, even something as bland as Healthy Body. Now, when someone deals with them, their total Comeliness is determined by whether they would have a positive or negative reaction to the descriptor.

 

Man, that was rambling. -shakes head- Hoepfully it makes more sense to y'all now. Again, it does sort of require Comeliness having some sort of usefulness.

[zornwil]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I happen to like COM as a characteristic. I do wish it had more direct game effect, but it works even as a supplemental roll to various social Skills such as Seduction or Persuasion. In reality people tend to be nicer to good looking persons even if they're not of the opposite sex. That may not be fair, but it's real. Perhaps we'll see additional rules for COM in future editions or supplements, but even as is it's not useless unless you play it that way. It may not be as useful as any other stat, but that's why it costs less than any other stat.

 

If COM is so pointless, why do so few players sell it back on their PCs? I've never run a PC with a 10 COM; even my brick had a 12 COM, my supermodel/ninja had an 18, and my current character has a 20 COM (Cute as a button!). Cyberknight's wife Kathy Ireland has a 24 COM. Only 3 of 8 PCs on our team have a 10 COM; the male team leader has a 15.

No one's taken advantage of it, but I allow COM as follows:

 

"COM may be used as the base skill for certain skills: Acting, Bribery, Bureaucratics, Conversation, Interrogation, Oratory, Persuasion, Seduction. This choice must be made at time of purchase; anything COM-based requires the other party being able to appreciate the COM of the one using the skill, a sort of built-in limitation."

 

While COM is cheaper, so it's easier to boost these stats, there is a built-in limitation of the recipient having to appreciate COM and/or the skill having to be delivered in relation to that, so I think it will work okay.

 

(I posted this in a separate thread, where Treb's note was, but then saw this thread and it's more appropriate here, so just moved it)

[paigeoliver]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

COM is all about the things that are not reflected in dice rolls. COM is about roleplaying, not roll playing.

 

COM means people treat you better.

COM means you are more likely to get the job, the girl, the boy, or the promotion.

 

Also, I constantly see a massive mix up between COM and presence.

 

I see soo many "Sex bomb: characters with 20+ COM. Problem is every rendition I have ever seen of one of these characters instead shows a character with an above average COM and a massive presence.

 

There have been many studies done on attractiveness, and many composites done and such, and the faces with the truly unearthly beauty are not the "sex bomb, OH MY GOD SHE IS SO HOT" people. The prototypical "sex bombs" don't even begin to rank.

 

In fact, apparently, the best way to get a facial picture that will rank as unearthly in beauty you should first morph together as many attractive women as possible, and then do a transform to change the facial shape to that of a 14 year old girl.

 

 

Ack, where was I. Oh yeah, a lot of those 20 COM characters would be much better represented with a 14 or 16 COM and another 5 or 10 points of presence.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

I think COM effects varies with the genre,

 

In Superheroes, everyone has a high COM, whether it is the supertights or the fact they are no longer wearing those ugly glasses. Gaining superpowers means the you have at least a 10 to 14 COM and probably up into 20+ area for some. However, it doesn't have much game effect. You look incredible well, that's about it, unless you're a seductivess as well.

 

In Spy genre, being good looking is everything, no supervillianess can even hope to face Bond without falling deeply in love. Bond, also, has a weakness for attractive women and can be captured easily due to this fact. In that campaign, COM is PRE and PRE is COM. There are even Presence Attacks based on COM.

 

In most fantasy games, it doesn't have an effect. Although there are certain charms/magics that reflect a special effect of attractiveness. Although nobility does seem to have a high COM than a lowly peasant (How do you know he's the king? He hasn't got s*** all over him.)

[Kristopher]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

Looking through my superhuman characters, I'd say the distribution of COM is lower than you're talking about.

 

Of course, the scale of Characteristics on my characters tends to be lower to begin with...

[pinecone]

Re: Adding value to COM

 

One thought I had while reading this is to make use of the positive rep rules so instead of buying +10 com I buy "Willowy blond" +1 skill roll/Pres, "Easy" (Aproachable) +1 skill/Pres, "Good conversationalist" +2 skill/Pres and "Fashion sense" +1 skill/Pres.....Don't like willowy blonds?, fine I can't use that mod on you......make your own based on your vision of the Char "Feral/Vital" +5 skill/Pres if thats your vision, and if somebody dosen't dig ya, they Really don't dig ya........