Balancing Magic

[Zeropoint]

A friend of mine recently expressed concern with both the power and effeciency of magic in a Fantasy Hero game. Giving it some thought, I could see his point--in creating a magic system, the GM must make sure that magic is neither uselessly weak nor overwhelmingly powerful, and also that the cost is proportional to its usefulness.

 

My first instinct is to use the standard Hero rules and make magic a multipower, which should ensure a reasonable point balance. That's what the core rules are for, after all. On the other hand, this would really limit versatility: a magic user might end up with only a handfull of spells, as opposed to the dozens that occur in literature and other game systems.

 

What solutions have you, Herodom assembled, found to these issues?

 

Zeropoint

[Rapier]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

A friend of mine recently expressed concern with both the power and effeciency of magic in a Fantasy Hero game. Giving it some thought, I could see his point--in creating a magic system, the GM must make sure that magic is neither uselessly weak nor overwhelmingly powerful, and also that the cost is proportional to its usefulness.

 

My first instinct is to use the standard Hero rules and make magic a multipower, which should ensure a reasonable point balance. That's what the core rules are for, after all. On the other hand, this would really limit versatility: a magic user might end up with only a handfull of spells, as opposed to the dozens that occur in literature and other game systems.

 

What solutions have you, Herodom assembled, found to these issues?

 

Zeropoint

I've been giving this some thought lately, and I'm 99.9% sure I'm going to go with the "Purchase Them Straight Out at 1/x Cost" Method. I'm just not sure if it's going to be 1/3 or 1/5 at this point. Probably 1/3. Most FH spells are already loaded down with quite a few lims so the Real Cost shouldn't be all that high. But once I get into playtesting etc, I will know more.

[Bucky]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

My first instinct is to use the standard Hero rules and make magic a multipower' date=' which should ensure a reasonable point balance. That's what the core rules are for, after all. On the other hand, this would really limit versatility: a magic user might end up with only a handfull of spells, as opposed to the dozens that occur in literature and other game systems.[/quote'] I am still not sure how magick works in our game. Our Gm is letting me find out as we go. (Which is cool as this is really how it would work if all this were real. [Does that make any sense?]) But as of now, I am buying my spells at their actual cost.

 

Now there is something to be said for having only a limited number of spells. It forces me to think creatively with what I got, rather than simply pull a different rabbit out of my hat for any and all occasions. Sometimes gaming within one's limitations is part of the fun.

[Curufea]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

I'm all for magic being unknown and possibly unpredictable. Historically that was its role in our society as a philosophy - the mystery that explains other mysteries. Very similar to religion in that regard, but without personifications.

 

If magic starts being known, researched and follows rules all the time - then it gets too much like just another branch of science.

[Fitz]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

In our own (human) history, magic has been omnipresent until very recently. Just think of all the charms and rituals people used to make the crops grow, to get babies born without killing the mother, to gain the goodwill of the house-elves (or to get them to leave us alone), or to make the metal in the forge bright and true. It's not the hocus-pocus magic of bearded men in pointy hats, but it's magic nonetheless.

 

Take a look at a barn next time you're in the country -- the horseshoe nailed up over the door is a magic charm. So is the corn dolly, the figurine made of corn straw at harvest time. It's all over the place.

 

Re: Gaming

I tried to create the separation between the "professional" wizard and the bloke-on-the-street-with-a-few-charms in my game by enforcing minimum and maximum character points for each respective type devoted to magic stuff, in the hope that I'd get puny wizards with few other skills, and buff warriors and sneaky thieves with a charm or two. It didn't turn out that way in practice though; I got puny wizards alright, but nobody else "wasted" any of their character points on magic at all.

 

Hey ho.

[Markdoc]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Also I'm not so sure about those "traditional" wizards with lots of spells - they seem pretty rare in fantasy literature and generally absent in folklore too. Do you mean "wizards in D and D"?

 

My experience with Magic is that unless the game is "Superheroes and Castles" (a perfectly legitimate genre, I should add) then magic needs to be heavily restricted - otherwise, flight, tunnelling, X-ray vision, and megascale persistent killing attacks, etc, will completely change the dynamics of the game. A wizard who can do "any power" can find ways to get around almost anything, which stretches the GM's brain in interesting ways

 

How you restrict it up to you - there are many ways. In my game there are no points caps and I allow multipowers, but there are compulsory limitations on spells. That means you can build really powerful spells and have a reasonable number, but their use in combat or stress situations is to be avoided.

 

You can use points caps or require specific limitations. You can write up allowed spells in advance, or charge real cost for spells, or whatever.

 

But do something....

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Just be clear on what exactly you’re trying to simulate.

 

Asian folklore? Chinese, Japanese and Indian myth and folklore featured heroic martial-artist magicians who could fly, jump from one end of the world to the other, destroy armies, rain fire, etc. It’s the closest traditional folklore and myth ever got to D&D type fantasy. In that setting, if you’re not a mage, you’re screwed, and that’s that. Let the players buy anything they want, stick it in MPs, and slap megascale on half of it.

 

European folklore and history? Players really shouldn’t be wizards or witches at all. If they are, they should have long casting times, need lots of ingredients and foci, and should only be able to manage effects with plausible deniability. IPE powers, Ego powers and stuff purchased vs. ECV fit well, probably in a VPP. A more fairy tale feeling can be had with ECs, as fairy tale magicians often seemed to have only a few very specific powers or none at all (other than knowing some alchemy and owning edible houses).

 

The way real world magicians thought magic worked before the New Agers threw everything into a blender? Religion was absolutely part of magic, and again long casting times, plenty of props and deniable spells are the rule. VPPs all around here, and all of it almost worthless in combat.

 

D&D? Go to http://www.killershrike.com and check his High Fantasy stuff.

 

Personally, I don’t use the 1:3 rule, but if it fits your campaign have fun with it. The important thing is to know exactly what you want magic to be in your game. After that, the mechanics should be much easier to decide on.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Thinking about it, it seems to me that most traditional mages' skills fell into two categories: information and magic-item-creation. Most stories with a magician hero had an "invincible" monster, and the hero either knew its weakness or knew how to find it, and then made a potion or a sword or something to defeat it with.

[OddHat]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Thinking about it' date=' it seems to me that most traditional mages' skills fell into two categories: information and magic-item-creation. Most stories with a magician hero had an "invincible" monster, and the hero either knew its weakness or knew how to find it, and then made a potion or a sword or something to defeat it with.[/quote']

 

Again, it comes down to the country, culture, period and genre. Journey to the West is Chinese novel published in the 1590s, collecting much older folk tales and myths. It features ordinary human magicians who learn to fly, shapechange, control the weather, and more. The demi-god characters can smash armies. In that traditional setting, any kind of power at almost any level works fine, as long as it's balanced for the campaign. 750 point characters would be no problem.

 

In a Norse Saga, human mages should mostly be forging magic items, and those should really come down to high class swords, axes, magic boats and carts. Icelandic fairy tales can add a few miracle machines to the mix.

 

The weird D&D hodgepodge isn't traditional myth or legend at all, and neither is most fantasy literature. That doesn't mean that a GM shouldn't try to simulate them if he feels like it - they're just not "traditional" except in a "traditional RPG" kind of way.

[Netzilla]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Like OddHat basically said, the first problem when it comes to discussing the balance of different magic systems is that you need a context from which to start. With so many different possible 'rules' by which magic can work (i.e. what it can and can't do from a story rather than mechanics perspective) it's a futile effort to determine how to balance it without one.

 

If you want massively powerful wizards that can devastate armies, then rather than limiting magic, you need to somehow beef up the non-magic characters (if they're even allowed as PCs).

 

If you want wizards of very narrow focus who can only cast a handful of spells, then looking a their spell list as their equivalent to Martial Arts Maneuvers isn't a bad way of going at it. Combat spells should probably have similar capability to more mundane weapons (though they might be able to do things like autofire and area effect by sacrificing damage) and have similar numbers of restrictions. Utility spells get more freedom, depending on what the GM wants to put up with (will having characters that can fly/see for miles/read minds ruin your plots).

 

One idea I've kicked around is for mages that have a few significant spells, but have lots of little 'cantrips' with very minor effects. Toward this end, I've figured on having practiced mages purches their main spells using the 1/3 model in FH. Then, for those cantrips, they can buy a small VPP (Pool size equal to or less than their Magic skill) that they pay only the control cost on. This 'Cantrip Pool' could not be used for combat-oriented spells. The problem comes from how cheap some senses, movement powers & the like can be. A 10 point pool is enough for 5" of flight or 10" of leaping; +3 on Perception rolls; IR and UV vision, and a host of other things that can be difficult for a GM to plan for.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

That's definitely true about Eastern power levels and such. Those guys were high powered. But, even then, a lot of Eastern stories come down to some monster with a specific weakness that the hero has to know or find out. They often could get away without making anything to defeat it with, because they had that sort of power innately....

 

My post was mostly in reference to MarkDoc's statement that wizards with a lot of spells weren't common in folklore or literature. I started thinking in generalities and realized that, yeah, most of it is just the wizard knowing the right thing to do. I don't think Merlin ever did ANYTHING other than know what to do in any given situation....

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

One idea I've kicked around is for mages that have a few significant spells' date=' but have lots of little 'cantrips' with very minor effects. Toward this end, I've figured on having practiced mages purches their main spells using the 1/3 model in FH. Then, for those cantrips, they can buy a small VPP (Pool size equal to or less than their Magic skill) that they pay only the control cost on. [/quote']

 

 

I was planning on doing something along these lines myself, but I haven't figured out just what proportion of individual spells to VPP I want. I want the VPP to represent a level of mastery that allows the character to improvise on the fly, so a character with just one big spell, or a double-handful of 5 AP spells, shouldn't be able to have the VPP at all. As a character builds up a range and depth of spell mastery, his VPP should be allowed to grow somewhat. By the time it's big enough for him to "do anything" with the VPP, he should have spent nearly enough points to do anything anyway....

[Eodin]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Yeah you really do have to set the context. In 4th ed FH there was this planning sheet for magic, and a blurb near it that talks about context. If you want an Arabian Nights style, then flight usable with carpets, summoning genies, are appropriate; if you want Norse style, then runes and protection are appropriate, but flight and summoning [genies] isn't.

You also have to understand what saturation you want magic to have...destruction of armies, cities in the clouds, or just minor conveniences that have little effect on the world.

Either extreme will have a large effect on the kind of characters your players will want to play. The Real/3 cost, plus a 10-point VPP are good for making magic costworthy for mages. But you've got to set the tone of what they get for their points.

[JakSpade]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

If you're talking about balance, what about Endurance cost? If spells in your campaign are going to cost End/Mana, then why allow mages the ability to purchase Reduced Endurance Costs? That way, the Earth-shattering spells really tire the wizard, and he can maybe only pull off one spell every few hours/days. Up the endurance cost of spells (1 Endurance per 5 active points), raise the cose of Endurance Reserves and mages will think twice about throwing around so many fireballs.

 

You might even think about limiting access to certain advantages, such as MegaScale. Say, this spell can only be used with MegaScale if multiple mages re involved, say one per 10 or 15 active points (Requires one additional mage per 10 active points in the power).

 

Just some ideas I was throwing around in my head.

 

Jak

[JMcL63]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

The key to controlling magic in HERO (just like anything else) is to make it cost. The cost can be to buy or to cast. There is another kind of cost- the social cost. What I mean by this is that magic- however it is defined in the particular setting- is a part of the social structure, and there will be social implications that come with magical power. This is hard to reflect if your magic system is just a list of powers with appropriate modifiers. You need to follow Fantasy HERO's tips on creating a proper magic system.

 

In my fantasy world for example, which I am currently working on reviving, the only kind of magic is divine magic, which is controlled by the various religions. Also, because of the divine nature of reality in this world, magic is a vital force in social life, so that the kinds of spells available will be determined by the role of religion in society; eg. priests blessing land to get the crops to grow. This leads logically to a magic system based on prayer and ritual, for which church membership (ie. buying package deals) is a prerequisite. And, given the nature of the rank perk, the idea of the different magical powers being level-based follows equally logically. Already then you can see that the power of magic in my setting is restricted by the social purpose of magic, and by the social cost to the character (expressed in the need to buy packages) of gaining magical power.

 

Tying your magic system into your background works when you are designing your magical powers as well as your magic system. Classically, fantasy magic users are masters of arcane lore. Isn't it only since the advent of D&D that they became mobile artillery and combat medics? So design spell preparation and casting rules that take time, and make good use of background skills as complementaries to the required dice rolls. This has the effect of making powerful magic more expensive to acquire and more difficult to use.

 

Apart from this, the best advice I can give you is to use Fantasy HERO as your manual when you are designing your magic systems. It's the best treatment of magic in general for roleplaying purposes I have ever read. What I've been doing is just working through the chapter section by section, answering any questions posed by each section and making notes in my workbook. It's proving to be very productive. Hope this helps.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Despite having sources like Slayers to look at, I'm leaning toward a system wherin even mages realize that the best way to hurt something in combat is to walk over and whack it with a sharp piece of metal, but magic is useful out of combat, for the things that can't be done any other way.

 

I'll definitely make sure all magic costs END to use, and I guess that mandatory Extra Time limitations would both reduce its combat usefulness and make it more affordable.

 

Zeropoint

[OddHat]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Despite having sources like Slayers to look at, I'm leaning toward a system wherin even mages realize that the best way to hurt something in combat is to walk over and whack it with a sharp piece of metal, but magic is useful out of combat, for the things that can't be done any other way.

 

I'll definitely make sure all magic costs END to use, and I guess that mandatory Extra Time limitations would both reduce its combat usefulness and make it more affordable.

 

Zeropoint

 

One compromise I like is a David Gemmel approach.

 

Magic in the physical world is limited to Ego powers, Item Creation (takes a long time), and a few powers with extra casing time or very hard to replace components (Charged Crystal, Blood Stones, whatever).

 

In the Spirit World / Other World, you can have any magic powers you like, but they only work in the Other World.

 

This gives you over the top high fantasy style magic when you want it, and lets warriors shine the rest of the time. Mage proving too powerful? Put him in a situation where he has to use up all of his Charaged Crystals and can't get new ones for a while. Mage feeling useless? Set part of the adventure in the Other World, where the Mage can cut loose with as much magic as you've let him buy.

 

I handled the Other World magics with the Duplication version of Astral Projection, but I wasn't completely happy with that. If I did it again, I might just use a VPP with one set of control cost limits in the "real world" and then buy those limit off, only when the character used EDM or had access to a Blood Stone.

[JMcL63]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

Despite having sources like Slayers to look at' date=' I'm leaning toward a system wherin even mages realize that the best way to hurt something in combat is to walk over and whack it with a sharp piece of metal, but magic is useful out of combat, for the things that can't be done any other way.

That's the kind of system I'm looking for too. I picked up the idea about having a fantasy campaign without magic from an old Spacegamer magazine many years ago. This soon mutated into a world with low level church/religious magic but no sorcery (ie. no D&D-style combat magic). HERO turned out to be the ideal system for making this happen. I think that thinking about how magic works in your setting, considering its various non-combat effects and developing the skills and packages to handle these and how people get hold of these powers; that this is a good way to proceed if you want to keep magic under control in your games. If you present your players with a system that tells them how to create magic users you will get much better results than if you just give them the powers list with a few prescribed power modifiers.

Your remark about weapons highlights another useful way of limiting magical power if you do want classic combat magic- relate the powers to real weapons. I mean a 2d6 HKA is hefty real weapon, so 8 DC in an attack spell would represent a pretty powerful spell.

 

I'll definitely make sure all magic costs END to use, and I guess that mandatory Extra Time limitations would both reduce its combat usefulness and make it more affordable.

Zeropoint

Extra time is a pretty basic limitation for non-combat magic IMO; why make the effort to marshal your magical forces second-by-second if the situation doesn't demand it after all? And in system terms, the turn is the basic unit of non-combat time, so I'd suggest that non-combat magic should take at least a turn or a minute minimum.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Magic.shtml

[Markdoc]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

My post was mostly in reference to MarkDoc's statement that wizards with a lot of spells weren't common in folklore or literature. I started thinking in generalities and realized that' date=' yeah, most of it is just the wizard knowing the right thing to do. I don't think Merlin ever did ANYTHING other than know what to do in any given situation....[/quote']

 

There are plenty of asian myths with little old wise men as well - and for that matter, there are western myths with characters with vast powers (Odin or Isis, for example).

 

I have to admit I was thinking more at the wizard/warrior end of the scale rather than God/demigods, which is where I would place someone like Monkey.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

I also liked the idea for my game of having lots of soldiers with swords being an important part of teh game world, which meant magic use in combat had to be tightly restricted. But I didn't want it to be useless.

 

Here are several magic systems - including one heavily-influenced by the European concept of magic - which are mostly aimed at making magic an adjunct to combat rather than a part of it.

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/magic_systems.htm

 

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Balancing Magic

 

There are plenty of asian myths with little old wise men as well - and for that matter, there are western myths with characters with vast powers (Odin or Isis, for example).

 

I have to admit I was thinking more at the wizard/warrior end of the scale rather than God/demigods, which is where I would place someone like Monkey.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Monkey's teacher was an ordinary human who had achieved enlightenment, and the master's other students were not divine at all. Wuxia is is full of spectacular combat magic performed by non-divinities, as are the books the genre is based on and Chinese folk tales in general. I'm not suggesting that you should play that way unless you like the genre, but it's not just Monkey.