Combat initiative and the Speed Chart

[Christopher R Taylor]

There seems to be some confusion here.

 

I never said you shouldn't be on the internet, or shouldn't use the internet, or that it has no value or use.  I just said you would be surprised how easy it is to do without if, for example, you ever had a chance or reason to.  Like a power outage, or a vacation, camping in the mountains etc.  Its surprisingly easy to break off and not be plugged in.  Peaceful, even.

[Rich McGee]

If it weren't for economic issues I could do fine without it as well - but I'm almost 60, and I suspect you can remember the days before the internet as well.  Not so sure there isn't a generational divide for most people, with folks who grew up with an always-there internet tending to feel very different about its absence than older folks.  It's become a far more important part of many folks' lives than previous innovations like television (cable or otherwise) or the introduction of talkies to cinema.

 

Whether that's a Bad Thing or not is largely subjective IMO, but you'll people of all ages arguing both ways.

[Gauntlet]

On 2/24/2003 at 1:23 PM, JamesG said:

I've toyed with the idea of abandoning the Speed Chart in favor of each character rolling a die and if they roll their speed or under they get an action. There are two reasons this appealed to me:

1. To introduce an element of randomness to the combat sequencing
2. To give slow Speed characters a chance to occasionally have a phase in a segment a higher Speed character does not. For example, in the Speed Chart, all of Speed 3's phases are in segments that Speed 6 also has a phase.[/list=1]
   But I abandoned the plan for a number of reasons. Mainly, it added additional complication and also I saw some of the problems it could entail that Keneton has pointed out.
    
   This thread has me thinking of trying the "12 numbered cards" method. I assume most who use that system use it either like:
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a Speed 4 or less goes this segment.
     or
   • (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a phase in segment 4 goes.

 

Both ways fix my issue 1, but not issue 2 (in fact the first way makes issue one worse, as low Speed characters will never have a phase when higher Speeds don't, barring prior aborts by the high Speed char).

 

One solution I thought of is creating a custom set of 12 cards that say which Speeds go when that card is turned. And then I can set up the cards so that low speeds (other than Speed 1) have at least one card where other "low" Speeds don't go. For example Speed 2 would appear on two cards, the "Everybody goes" card and a card with Speed 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. That way on one of Speed 2's two segments, no other Speed of 6 or lower would be going.

 

Has anyone experimented with a system like this? I'm not even sure the additional complexity would be worth it.

 

I would definitely have to say that having people role as to if they get to go or not is a bad idea. You will end up with a lot of pissed off player, not necessarily pissed off at you directly, but definitely at the dice which will then move to the GM. Imagine if you are playing that slow brick who has a 4 speed and never gets to go the entire session because he can't seem to roll low on any dice.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like the playing card model.  One variant: each player gets one suit (A - K) and shuffles them.  Flip top card - A to 10  = Seg 1 - 10 ; J = 11; Q = 12, K = PS12 recovery.  If they move on that segment, they act.

After 13 cards, shuffle again.  They get their actions in a turn, but without the standard ordering.

 

One variant - no Kings; PS12 always happens at the shuffle.

[Scott Ruggels]

On 2/13/2003 at 4:41 PM, Fitz said:

I've never been terribly fond of the Speed Chart and the mechanical effect it has on combat. Its only advantage, to my mind, is that it guarantees that a combatant with SPD 4 acts exactly twice as often as one with SPD 2. The big problem with it is that it encourages the sort of metagaming mindset which allows players to pre-plan their combats, to the grave detriment of the feeling of fast-moving chaotic excitement which combat should have.

 

I've tried a couple of ways to get around this, to make combat less rigidly structured without doing away with the SPD system altogether.

 

The first variation: Random Segment Determination , in which a d12 is rolled and those characters with SPD appropriate to act on that segment, or those holding an action, can act. This system was what I'd describe as a miserable failure -- it slowed everything down rtaher than speeding it up, and keeping track of passing time was a real pain in the bum.

 

Second Variation: Random Phase Determination , in which a die is rolled each Phase of combat. Everyone with a SPD equal to or greater than the number shown, or those holding an action, get to act. When the die shows a 1, everyone acts, the Turn ends and they get their post-12 recoveries. This system was a qualified success, since it did speed things up and it was easy to tell who could and could not act in any given phase. Where it fell down was in the ratio of actions between combatants; because combats seldom go on for any great length of time (that is, the number of individual Phases is small), it's easy for low-SPD or even moderate-SPD characters to be left out entirely simply because of a run of high Phase-Determination Rolls. Over time, of course, the ratio of actions will inevitable stabilize, but who remembers how many times they got to clobber something in a session three weeks ago?

 

Third Variation: Randomised SPD Bonus/Penalty : This is the system we're currently trialling. At the beginning of combat, everyone throws 1d6. A result of 1 means that character has -1 SPD (for that combat only), a 6 grants +1 SPD, and any other result indicates no change. Otherwise, the Speed Chart is used as per the published rules. This system has the virtue of simplicity, the down-side being that players have to keep track of which Phases they act on for 3 different SPDs -- their normal SPD, and one either side. We haven't play=tested this system for long enough to show whether it's practical or not, but I have an uneasy feeling lurking down deep that it won't really serve the purpose terribly well.

 

Does anyone have any ideas any other kind of combat initiative system which fulfills the following criteria?

 

1) It must be very, very simple.

2) It must grant screen time appropriate to the character's SPD

3) It must be variable enough to provide a degree of uncertainty about exactly who gets to act exactly when

4) It must not change the system to the extent of removing or distorting the SPD mechanism completely

5) It must be simple. I mean it.

Funny but I disagree with all the points you made at the top of the quote. The fixed initiative is such a relief compared to die roll randomness. Most combat is sort of planned or at least has objectives. Champions was a Wargame of superheroes. The chaotic randomness is a product of melee or martial arts fights, when ranged combat is more planned out, or at least rules based. A lot of this chaos and randomness seems like a desire for more of a fiction forward flavor.  My preference is not to mess with Champions RAW. 

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Funny but I disagree with all the points you made at the top of the quote. The fixed initiative is such a relief compared to die roll randomness. Most combat is sort of planned or at least has objectives. Champions was a Wargame of superheroes. The chaotic randomness is a product of melee or martial arts fights, when ranged combat is more planned out, or at least rules based. A lot of this chaos and randomness seems like a desire for more of a fiction forward flavor.  My preference is not to mess with Champions RAW. 

 

I definitely have to agree with you. There is no reason for randomness as there are plenty of things a character, or villain, can do to keeps things interesting. Many people don't realize that just because you have a DEX of 25 you do not have to go at DEX 25. Many times it is a good idea to hold off to see what your opponents are going to do or to allow you to work with one of your team members. In addition, just because you go in Phases 3, 6, 9, & 12, it does not mean those are the only phases you are allowed to act in. You can hold your Phase 3, to phase 4 or 5. Once again this can cause opponents problems because you are not going in the same phase or will allow you to better work with one of your teammates. Heck, when I use VIPER, I definitely have the agents not acting in their regular phases, that way if there is a number of them they can be attacking the heroes in every phase, not just 4, 8, & 12.

 

Note: I do know this is something I have said before but I believe it is something that can be said twice as I have seen a lot of players, especially new ones, who do not realize this is available.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Gauntlet

[LoneWolf]

This can be summed up as “having a higher DEX does not mean you act first; it means you get to choose when you act”.   

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

This can be summed up as “having a higher DEX does not mean you act first; it means you get to choose when you act”.   

 

This is Very Very Very Very True and the way it should be. I hate it in D&D where if you hold your action it changes you in the list of when you go, making it so that if you hold your action you are penalized for it.