Mark Taylor Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised So' date=' it's necessary that improvements make older computers incompatible with new software?[/quote'] How you made that leap from my statement is a complete mystery to me. I was discussing DVD players and washing machines. Since when was a new DVD player incompatible with your DVDs or did a new washing machine make your clothes obsolete? I've been reading 5ER in depth and there doesn't seem to be anything about it that makes any other HERO Games products incompatible or obsolete either. (Oh, except for the free service they provide of answering people's rules questions because GMs don't seem to be able to accept the responsibility of making the decisions that affect their own games any more.) As to the computers... well to be honest, for the improvements that the customers demand to happen, sometimes compatibility with older computers does have to be sacrificed. It would be great if I could still use the ZX Spectrum I had when I was 12 to run modern applications like Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office but sadly the hardware just wasn't up to it. Anyway, MikeyMitchell answered that part better. How about asking the question "Does the release of new software stop your old software from working?" instead. Imagine you are a software developer, or a consumer electronics manufacturer, or even, hey, an RPG company. In order to remain lucrative you have to stay competitive. In order to stay competitive you have to keep improving your products, because let's face it everybody else is and a significant portion of your customer base is demanding it. Unfortunately, the improvement cycle sometimes means that old products get left behind. This is unavoidable. It would be great if every single company continued to support every single product they had ever released ad infinitum, but unfortunately the cost of doing so is prohibitive. In order to bear this cost you would have to raise your prices (guess what, the customers would complain!) or simply go bust (then the customers would get no support at all, and wouldn't even have anybody to complain at!). It's a catch 22 situation. Customers demand improvements, and when improvements are delivered customers turn around and say "Hey! I've been left behind! You suck!" Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. Hey, anybody who reads my more political postings knows I'm far from the most pro-corporate individual in the world, but this particular area is one in which consumers just expect the impossible and it's frequently the companies who are being unfairly shafted (or at least unfairly whined at). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HewhoisMatt Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I also have a prob paying $50 to replace a $40 book I already own. With tax thats over a $100 for the basic rules to play a game I play a few times a month and that does not take in to account the other books(pretty much all of them)that I have bought. In truth there are a few books I bought that I will never use just cause I really want Hero to last this time. I have used Fred and had few to no problems, sure sometimes we have to hunt a bit for info but thats what all the other books are there for. I also know if I was someone who was not a long time fan there is no way in hell I would blow $50 on a Game book. I know this has been covered and Steve says the new paper is bulletproof, and the binding can withstand smiting by a god but every copy I have seen in Vegas looks like crap, both the binding and paper. If I was a new person seeing this company for the first time with this book for $50 next to all the other bright shiny D20 books, I would think someone was on crack. Fred has worked for me so far and I bet it will keep doing so for some time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Taylor Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised Fred has worked for me so far and I bet it will keep doing so for some time to come. Hey, at least you can acknowledge that part and are not claiming that DOJ are somehow forcing you to buy the book. That's a step forward compared to many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I really have to go a bit further here...what if they just put out v6? It's only a couple years. So if they put out v6 and it really was a new version (some rework, new rules), and it were big and thick and $50, and Steve's answers were going to become v6-centric...so what? Really, so what? I didn't play v4 until it had been out for years, I didn't even realize it was out. Many people here have bought v4 or even v3 scenarios and been able to use them just fine. This isn't like a technology upgrade. Nothing stops one from being able to enjoy playing HERO, if they already are doing so. As a corporate move, I also would not have an issue if there were regular upgrades, even if I couldn't stay up. I think it would probably be unwise given the general RPG climate, though, people do seem unwilling to "keep up" as it were, although that is in stark contrast to the computer gaming hobby as far as I can tell. That being said, I think it's about setting expectations. Where I could or would fault hERO, if it were appropriate, is if they created one set of expectations and delivered something different, particularly of course if that were consistent or, worse, calculated. I was very upset with HERO back in the pre-DOJ games when they kept saying they were "just about to print" v5 or the like. I don't know why they kept saying that - I don't know if it was truly naivete/wishful-thinking on their part, or a stalling tactic, or a combo of both. But it really made me upset. Similarly, if HERO were to have come out with v6 masquerading as v5ER, I would have been upset, even though either way I was going to buy it. I do feel, given the comments about how trivial the revision was going to be aside from added content and how non-essential it was as far as staying up with version 5, that not supplying page numbers for v5 in the answers that Steve gives is marginally in defiance of expectations I had, and I've said that elsewhere. It's hardly a big deal, but I have to say, even as someone who purchased v5ER, that in fact I'd prefer if Steve answered all questions still based on v5 page numbers if he had to make a choice, and then note if that changed somehow (given little has changed, that seems more reasonable to me). But really I'd prefer to see the answers with both page numbers for another 12-24 months after the introductin of 5ER, as that was promoted as basically a non-issue for current v5 owners, and suddenly there is a minor issue. I only brought that up in terms of addressing the whole upgrade issue, I'm not going on about this as a campaign or trying to change anyone's mind or such, nor do I really care particularly. As to the paper and book binding, while the paper isn't to my personal preference (but it should be said is actually hardier paper at a lighter weight, so it isn't as if it were done carelessly, it was a well thought-out decision) and I'm suspicious of how long the binding will last, I don't see this as substantive issues. The book is entirely readable and 5ER has packed in way more content, and the price "increase" (to be fair, it's not even an increase, it's not as if they're selling the exatt same edition at a higher price) seems wholly justified. That the binding may strain over time is a given for a big book, period, and in this hobby we seem to be very price-conscious, so you will get just what you pay for. The binding is wholly appropriate and simply CANNOT be done better at this price range, and my wife, being a book-binder, is quite confident of that. So unless the marketplace is willing to spend $100 or such for the book, this is a good job. That's how I see the whole upgrading of HERO issue, both in general and specific to this situation. I tried to put all my thoughts into this post and now I can just link to it as appropriate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xotl Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I know how Steve's answers in the question forum will be formatted, as well as future FAQ updates, but will all future Hero books have 5ER page references exclusively, or will they feature dual-references to both 5th and 5ER? The Writer's Guidelines don't have this information, so I thought I'd ask here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised Well, it'd be some effort, but we here could cross-reference the pages from 5th to 5ER, or at least close enough where they straddle (I.e, identify the first page) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I know how Steve's answers in the question forum will be formatted, as well as future FAQ updates, but will all future Hero books have 5ER page references exclusively, or will they feature dual-references to both 5th and 5ER? The Writer's Guidelines don't have this information, so I thought I'd ask here. They will be exclusively to 5ER, as seen in The Ultimate Mystic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised One fan's view I just wanted to say that I was one of the many who whined about 5th edition taking so long. My BBB had disintegrated having bought it something like 10 or 12 years ago and I had to take the pages, hole punch them and put them in a large binder and I kept playing. Finally, I made a promise to myself, I would buy 5th edition when it came out (sight unseen). I was not disappointment. Although it did not wash the dishes, feed the cat, do the laundry, it was worth the bucks. I still have my old BBB on the shelf because I could bring myself to throw it away having kept it for so long. I still have a Calvin and Hobbes comic taped to the last page where Calvin admits that he doesn't know who Lewis and Clark was, but he can list all the members of the Thermal Nuclear League. I also bought the new bestiary. And although I look at it and go, "I could have done that", I also have to shrug and say, "but I didn't and I bought the book, and the book was worth it". When 5ER came out, I said, "I can't afford $50 for a game book", and currently we can't. But, one of my gaming friends got two and said, "Since I got two, you can have this one". And I like it, but I'm a bit intimated but proud to have a gaming book bigger than most college physics books. However, in comparsion, my friend was quite upset last year, White Wolf's Vampire just had a Gehenna which I think is a French term for "making an entire bookshelf of supplements obsolete because it's trendy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Taylor Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised However' date=' in comparsion, my friend was quite upset last year, White Wolf's [i']Vampire[/i] just had a Gehenna which I think is a French term for "making an entire bookshelf of supplements obsolete because it's trendy". I thought it was quite amusing that they even released a book specifically to help you wrap up your current campaign so you could move on to a new campaign with the new system and world. I wonder how HERO fans would have reacted had DOJ, around six months ago, released a $30 volume titled "Prepare for 5ER"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised However' date=' in comparsion, my friend was quite upset last year, White Wolf's [i']Vampire[/i] just had a Gehenna which I think is a French term for "making an entire bookshelf of supplements obsolete because it's trendy". I thought it was quite amusing that they even released a book specifically to help you wrap up your current campaign so you could move on to a new campaign with the new system and world. Just as as a friendly advisory to anyone who might be interested: The new White Wolf system sucks rocks. If you've any interest in playing any of their games, either stick with the old system (2nd/3rd Ed) or do a HERO conversion. I really enjoyed playing Vampire and Werewolf, but the metaplot stank like dead goat, and in my experience the company is about as smug and self-adoring as a collection of human beings can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I keep hearing about people's BBBs falling apart Mine got plenty of use and held up great, it only started having trouble after I dropped it on concrete just a few years ago. I guess I was just lucky, mine was/is pretty sturdy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HewhoisMatt Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised I lost count of all the BBBs I had. I got to the point I would look for them in used book stores and in the back of old game shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised My BBB held up for many, many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised My BBB held up for pretty much the whole 4e period, though the spine cracked in one place after 8 or so years. HOwever, another player's book cracked pretty fast and fell apart fairly quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcholmes Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re: HERO 5th Revised So I picked up a copy of 5th Edition Revised on the weekend and... Holy Moley! It's huge. It's a phone book. It's a tome! It's... it's... dare I say it...? "To Serve Fan! It's... a cookbook!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.