HERO 5th Revised

[gojira]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Yeah' date=' I'm not a corporate-drone-man, I'm a drooling corporate zombie. There IS a difference. [/quote']

 

Wooo! How many points for that?! And are you available? I have an evil corporate villain in need of minions, and a drooling corporate zombie would be just the ticket.

 

[ZenStorm]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

OPINION: Blasting people that dont share your skewed view that you rate preferential treatment because you happened to purchase FRED recently and feel like you havent received your dollars worth out of it because an expanded version has been released' date=' calling them "corporate" lackeys and what not, makes you look like an idiot. IMO. Not only does it not help your position, it actively hurts it. And dragging in a diatribe about some other companies versioning schemas and frothing comparisons between that company and some malefic entity are not relevant and do nothing aside from painting you as a whackjob. Again IMO.[/quote']

 

You don't say...

 

Hey, Shrike...

I agree. It would also be very bad if someone were to accuse someone else of being a child-raping nazi. That would be wrong and it would paint one as a silly, misguided moron, intellectually no different than a garden slug or lump of cow dung. That kind of tact instantly demonstrates the utter ridiculousness of the speaker's point of view and highlights his latent tendencies toward bestiality... tendencies in which he is a 'bottom.' Just IMO.

 

There was also this story about two cooking-devices, one a kettle, the other a very outwardly focused pot.

 

Still, my point must have hit a nerve if my former apologies are going to go completely ignored. Fine by me.

But, one must admit it has certainly spurned a very long string. I almost can't grasp the incredibly lengthy run it's had.

 

I mean, Jesus Marimba! It's been going on for almost three days.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Still' date=' my point must have hit a nerve if my former apologies are going to go completely ignored.[/quote']

 

You apologized to Mark? I'm sorry, I don't always read every message. I probably wouldn't have commented on it if I'd noticed the apology.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

You don't say...

 

Hey, Shrike...

I agree. It would also be very bad if someone were to accuse someone else of being a child-raping nazi. That would be wrong and it would paint one as a silly, misguided moron, intellectually no different than a garden slug or lump of cow dung. That kind of tact instantly demonstrates the utter ridiculousness of the speaker's point of view and highlights his latent tendencies toward bestiality... tendencies in which he is a 'bottom.' Just IMO.

That's an odd non sequitir, but "thanks for sharing".

 

There was also this story about two cooking-devices, one a kettle, the other a very outwardly focused pot.

Hmm. Thats an interesting allusion. Of course, it might have more meaning if someone had actually called you anything.

 

Still, my point must have hit a nerve if my former apologies are going to go completely ignored. Fine by me.

But, one must admit it has certainly spurned a very long string. I almost can't grasp the incredibly lengthy run it's had.

So in your world if someone is rude and insulting without provocation and is called on it, it's because they "hit a nerve" and not because they are simply rude?

 

I mean, Jesus Marimba! It's been going on for almost three days.

Wow. Almost three days. Thats, like, an eternity or something.

 

Apparantly the Trolls come out of hibernation over the New Year.

 

Let me sum up what seems to be your position: "OMG, a new version of the rules! This is just like D&D! WotC is the devil, and releasing revised rules will result in the HERO System becoming terrible rules! And if you dont agree with me youre a drone, and if you call me on my behaviour I'll make oblique bestiality references in a weak passive aggressive response! And even though people that have the book say the rules havent changed, they obviously have! You wont be able to use new material with it, and if you dont think so you're wrong -- you'll see!"

 

 

But hey, you go ahead and show us all; don't buy the book.

[tracer]

it still seems a well-balanced cost.

Goodman would be proud of you.

 

(Come on, somebody had to say it!)

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Goodman would be proud of you.

 

(Come on, somebody had to say it!)

That took me a minute but garnered a big smile when I realized.

[lemming]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Goodman would be proud of you.

 

(Come on, somebody had to say it!)

*clap*clap*clap*

[incrdbil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Phrases indicative of a thread going to hell, and argument being made just to argue.

 

" I am willing to bet that"

 

in this case, the assumption is "things have changed just enough to make buying it a necessity. "

 

I have FRED right now. I've looked over, fairly extenisively, the differences, and come to the conclusion its not going to kill me not to have 5th ER. I still plan to get it--the changes are not objectionable, and in almost all respects immedately agreeable to me. But I see no reason why not having 5th ER will render me unable to use newer products.

 

"But, mark my words and mark them well."

 

oh yeah, no one's angry and making a martyr of themselves here.

 

"People argued that d20 v3.5 wasn't an essential."

 

Well, I'll just have to respond with the statement that people argued that the Rolemaster Compendiums I to III were essential --and the experience with that obviously points out that just like your reference to 3.5, ..it has absolutely nothing to do with 5ER.

 

"Show me a single minion of the d20 legion of mindless followers who has actually followed through on their self-commitment to not completely upgrade to 3.5, and I'll show you someone who's out of touch with reality."

 

I invite you to wander over to usenet, where you'll find people who refused to upgrade to 3.5, or 3.0, or 2nd edition, or even first. Out of touch with reality? Minions? Mindless legion? I name you .....Captain Melodrama!

 

Repeat this mantra. Game. Play. Fun. Don't stress so much, you'll live longer.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Still' date=' my point must have hit a nerve if my former apologies are going to go completely ignored. Fine by me.[/quote']

 

 

[voice=homer simpson]

 

Such sincerity! My faith in humanity is restored!

 

[/voice]

 

Sorry for missing your apology to me, but as it was cunningly hidden in a reply to somebody else entirely and didn't at any point mention my name or what you were actually apologising for perhaps I can be forgiven for my oversight.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Apparantly the Trolls come out of hibernation over the New Year.

 

Makes sense. It's fairly close to midwinter, shortest day and all that. Less trouble with pesky sunlight turning them to stone.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

"But, mark my words and mark them well."

 

oh yeah, no one's angry and making a martyr of themselves here.

 

I was hoping for a good, rousing "You'll rue the day!"

 

We need an icon of an angry smiley shaking its fist, though.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Lets establish some facts.

Fact: 5ER is not a different rules system then FRED.

Fact: FRED is out of stock

Fact: The choices were between a reprint, a revision, or allowing the core rulebook to remain out of stock.

Fact: 5ER combines the 5th Edition Rules with the known 5th Edition Errata and a good deal of the 5th Edition Rules FAQ.

Let's add a couple more...

 

Fact: Prior to 5ER's release, FRED had gone though (I believe) seven printings. After every single one of them, there were people who publicly complained that the most recent printing did not correct errata, did not address rules FAQ issues, did not include the HERO System Genre-By-Genre document, did not include a combat example, did not include example characters, did not include the Advantages and Limitations quick reference charts, and so on.

 

Fact: Upon 5ER's release, when these things were now included, the complaining shifted to lamenting a new/changed book.

 

 

Forgive me if I don't get extremely worked up about these complaints.

[Gadodel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

12,000+ posts on WoTC's Boards and some of them are relevant here.

 

I remember when the announcement was made that there would be a Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition. The uproar was incredible. No, I wasn't emotionally scarred by it; I was using D20 Modern as my base set of rules by that time.

 

'It is not fair that you are making us buy the updated revision!' No one was forcing anyone to do that. Hell, there wasn't even a big marketing scheme behind it.

 

'I will have to change everything in my campaign!' Again, that isn't true. It is your world, it can operate under whatever rules you want it to. When you decide it is ready for a change, 3.5E is an option to 'consider'.

 

'Some of my players don't want to change, some of them do; it is ruining my group!' It shouldn't. Some of it is entirely compatible, some of it will require the DM to make some choices. Choice, it is a good thing.

 

Then, there was around 10,000 threads that made even less sense!

 

Choice. I choose to ignore it all and do what I wanted to do, which was to have the kind of fun I wanted to.

 

HERO attracted me because of three reasons:

1. It epitomizes 'choice'. The options are overwhelming. The flexibility and versatility is awesome. I can make any sort of decision and you know what, the rules will be there to support it...somehow.

2. The maturity level. Not just in the game, but those that play it and those that participate on this (and other messageboards).

3. D20 was and is good, but starting to get clunky. Some might say HERO is clunky. I call it crunchy.

 

I recommend that you exercise some 'choice'...I think the facts were well established. Personally, I'll pick up the HERO 5th 'More Options Book' as soon as I see it on the shelf at my FLGS.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

12,000+ posts on WoTC's Boards and some of them are relevant here.

 

I remember when the announcement was made that there would be a Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition. The uproar was incredible. No, I wasn't emotionally scarred by it; I was using D20 Modern as my base set of rules by that time.

 

'It is not fair that you are making us buy the updated revision!' No one was forcing anyone to do that. Hell, there wasn't even a big marketing scheme behind it.

 

'I will have to change everything in my campaign!' Again, that isn't true. It is your world, it can operate under whatever rules you want it to. When you decide it is ready for a change, 3.5E is an option to 'consider'.

 

'Some of my players don't want to change, some of them do; it is ruining my group!' It shouldn't. Some of it is entirely compatible, some of it will require the DM to make some choices. Choice, it is a good thing.

 

Then, there was around 10,000 threads that made even less sense!

 

Choice. I choose to ignore it all and do what I wanted to do, which was to have the kind of fun I wanted to.

 

HERO attracted me because of three reasons:

1. It epitomizes 'choice'. The options are overwhelming. The flexibility and versatility is awesome. I can make any sort of decision and you know what, the rules will be there to support it...somehow.

2. The maturity level. Not just in the game, but those that play it and those that participate on this (and other messageboards).

3. D20 was and is good, but starting to get clunky. Some might say HERO is clunky. I call it crunchy.

 

I recommend that you exercise some 'choice'...I think the facts were well established. Personally, I'll pick up the HERO 5th 'More Options Book' as soon as I see it on the shelf at my FLGS.

All good points, but there is one important difference between this and D&D 3.5; the rules havent actually changed. Existing rules were "merely" clarified, corrected, and extended in some areas. A character designed under FRED will still work under 5ER.

 

For those of us who followed the FAQ, it's not even a big deal -- its just a handy all-in-one-place collation of stuff that has been available for a good while now

[Gadodel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

All good points, but there is one important difference between this and D&D 3.5; the rules havent actually changed. Existing rules were "merely" clarified, corrected, and extended in some areas. A character designed under FRED will still work under 5ER.

 

For those of us who followed the FAQ, it's not even a big deal -- its just a handy all-in-one-place collation of stuff that has been available for a good while now

Actually, the 3E vs 3.5E debate is nearly identical. The rules between them were clarified, corrected and specified too. A 3E fighter can operate in a 3.5 adventure, a 3.5E fighter can operate in a 3E adventure. OK, the Bards and Rangers were altered greatly, but the same compatibility exists for them.

 

AFAIK, a HERO from 5E can operate in a 5E-Update campaign and viceversa. Though, I do believe this compatibility is greater than the 3E/3.5E situation.

 

The debate is nearly identical, but not perfectly so.

 

Can we atleast all agree that Steve Long-with one hand tied behind his back, can beat up the entire staff at WoTC?

 

Yeah, the debate about all if this really is *that* mature...

[lemming]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Let's add a couple more...

 

Fact: Prior to 5ER's release, FRED had gone though (I believe) seven printings.

 

I want to complain. Not once did they include my special house rules!

[Bucky]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

d20 is the devil.

 

I'm not kidding. d20 is to gaming what MTV was to the music industry. They corporatized it, boxed it up in a prettier wrapper, slowly raised the prices and killed everything about it that was good, and honest and inspiring.

It hasn't happened to gaming yet. But, thanks to Wizards of the Cash, it has definately /begun/ to happen.

 

The poison that is MTV took a few years to do its work too.

 

While I see where you get this, I have to disagree a lot. D20 is not the devil. (And considering the views of some religious groups when D&D first came out, the comment did make me laugh.) The new editions, 3rd edition and 3.5 will bring new players into gaming, and some of those will leak out of the D20 confines, to discover other games.

 

Second, while D&D is great for fantasy type adventures, it does not do as well in other genries. Despite their best efforts, Traveller T20, by incorporating the D20 class system, ruined a perfectly good game (IMO). D20 Modern is not a sales leader, and D20 Futures, well, I don't think it is even being marketed. So if you want to play something else other than Lord of the Rings, you are gonna need a different gaming system. Like Hero, or Gurps.

 

Show me a single minion of the d20 legion of mindless followers who has actually followed through on their self-commitment to not completely upgrade to 3.5, and I'll show you someone who's out of touch with reality.

I have not upgraded to 3.5, after using D&D and D20 system for most of my gaming life. It did seem to be too much a con, and not worth the money. (Besides, it was around this time that I got invited to play the Hero system for the first time, so...)

 

That alone makes me doubt D20 and WOTC will become the next MTV, or Microsoft. Yes, I am just one guy, but I find it hard to believe I am the only one to bail when 3.5 came out.

 

I understand the desire for "One rulebook to rule them all" philosophy, and it is something that I would personally support. But it ain't gonna happen. Different folks like different things. Some folks want to get under the hood, design a character instead of just roll them up. Some folks prefer the automatic handouts that go with garnering levels in D20. People is different, and I don't think that is going to change. Simply because it does not have to be.

 

The fact that Hero may sell less than D20 really does not mean that much. Its still a viable gaming system and the rules are pretty good.

[JmOz]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Just to add wood to the fire (and to keep everyone honest): Some rules have changed, from what I understand about 1-3% (EDM being the biggest example) from the 5th edition (most of the changes can be found in other products howeever)

[proditor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

I think what makes 5er different for me was that it wasn't planned. Fred ran it's course and they did something you just don't see anymore: They came online and asked US, "What should we do? We can just print more Fred or we can add all the updates and rules stuff from the FAQ and just make a revised edition. What do you, our customers, think about this?"

 

It was not the (to my mind) cynical and purposeless planned obsolesence that we got from WotC with 3.5. There was no discussion before Fred went to print about when to release 5er. There was no directionless upgrade that was made with limited input from the customers. WE made 5er with our questions and suggestions and when Fred ran it's course, we asked for it.

 

Monte Cook and Sean Reynolds have both talked about the plan for 3.0/3.5 and the...I guess dishonesty isn't right...maybe just the pure greed...of that business plan drove me out of d20. When we bought 3.0 people cynically asked when the next upgrade would occur. We were told on numerous occasions "Well, 2.0 lasted for 11 years, there's no reason 3.0 shouldn't do the same" except there was a reason, they had a planned upgrade already in the works. So it was a bold faced lie.

 

Seriously contrast how WotC treated it;s customers with how HERO did. One did what they wanted, lied about it, lied some more when called on it, lied EVEN MORE when people started asking about 4.0, again already planned according to the people who worked on 3.0/3.5. The other came out with a game and when they sold out of all copies of the rules, they asked their customers "Should we make more or make a revised version?" Mind you, the revised Player's Handbook was out in 6 months...and 2 years later, 3.5 which by even a conservative view is a sea change compared to 3.0. 1-3% of the rules changed in the publication of 5er. You can get that stuff elsewhere without buying 5er. A lot of it is free, right here.

 

I'm just going to stop here as the more I dwell on WotC, the more pissed off I get at their questionable ethics.

[Guest MadKestrel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

I've pointed out in another area that I understand the meaning behind the original post. But I've learned a lot from reading all of this thread (before I posted), that I didn't know before.

 

I too, was upset to find out that 5th was being "Revised". It's not the corrections or the additions I have a problem with. I'm not buying 5er (even though I would like the additional material) because of the paper -- it's too hard to read, and I don't like the way it looks or feels. If they change the paper, I'd buy it. (I'm concerned about the binding too. Our Fred is holding up very well, but my GURPS 4th books arrived with the binding cracked, so now I'm more suspicious of hardbound books that will see this much use.) But, that's my opinion. I can only hope that DOJ will take all of us really old players into consideration and come up with a Large Print version eventually.

 

But everyone in this industry is (or should be) aware of the effect the word "Revision" is having on the customer base. Most of the major game publishers are doing revisions and/or changes of their core systems. WotC's revision was definitely planned and money oriented, though I don't think DOJ's was. I'm still unsure about GURPS & WOD.

 

But with so many revisions already in the works, I think it would have just been better to do this another way. Absolutely fix the print run, and/or add a few pages of clarification in the back, where page # references won't get messed up and the whole line stays up to date. (I was pleasantly surprised to learn that there had been seven printings. They should have fixed typos long before the seventh.) Additional material could have been put in another softbound volume.

 

This, of course, is hindsight -- if I'd have known opinions were being taken I'd have offered mine up. But if I were a game publisher I would have done anything to avoid even the appearance of an unneeded "REVISION". If nothing else, I'd have left that word off the cover and called it something else.

 

Most people are saying that the rules haven't changed. One person says they have. What's the official word? Are they clarifications, or changes? If they are changes, then we don't have much choice but to buy 5er. IF that is the case, the similarities between DOJ and Wizards just got a lot closer, so I hope it isn't.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Really' date=' if the rules haven't changed, they aren't Revised Rules anyway.[/quote']

 

It's really the book that's been revised, not the rules.

 

There are a lot of reasons why DOJ (with customer input) decided to do what they did. The feedback they got when these plans were announced was far more positive than negative and I think much of that can be put down to the fact that they listened to the customer input they received. But of course, as is always the case in these situations, there was nothing they could have done that would have pleased everybody.

 

With the amount and nature of the material that's been added, sticking it all into an Appendix to avoid messing up the page numbers (like SJG did with GURPS 3rd Edition Revised) would have created a book that was a nightmare to navigate and use in practice. Even GURPS 3rd Revised (which had a relatively small amount of additional content, and that content was of a nature that was far easier to separate from the main text than much of what's been added to HERO 5ER), was irritating to use when I couldn't remember whether a particular Advantage, Disadvantage or Skill was in the main text or the Appendix.

 

The alternative you suggested of only adding a few pages would have meant that the book couldn't even have begun to address the content of the Rules FAQ, which was a large part of the point of the revision, and the main thing that most customers wanted when they asked for the revision.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Not to belabor the point, but there are some small changes as JmOz mentions with EDM (which had a little recosting done, a new Adder, along with a lot more info although the last of these doesn't necessarily count).

 

I just don't think they rise to the occassion of really being a change in the way we think of d20 going from 3 to 3.5. Or put another way, it's not 5 to 5.5, it's more like 5 to 5.05.

[Jhamin]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

In retrospect although "Revised" is probably the literally correct term, the word itself in the gaming context probably carries too much baggage.

 

Perhaps "expanded" might have been a better title?

[Guest MadKestrel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Okay, so it's a very "small" revision. It's still a revision and DOJ is going to have many people who are on the bandwagon with it, and many who are not, for reasons of their own. Which is pretty much what I'm seeing here on the boards.

 

We ended up buying D20 3.5. We didn't want to do, as we knew it was greed motivated, but the bottom line was that most of the people we get to play regularly with right now are the younger crowd. Most of them don't start out with books. It didn't make any sense to run a game system that if they decided they liked and went out and bought, it wasn't entirely compatible with ours. But it made us just as mad the post earlier in this thread -- nearly foaming at the mouth. We swore then and there not to EVER purchase another Wizards product after the 3.5 core set. It's been a year and we've kept to that. Wizards will find it difficult to get another single dollar from us.

 

So my feeling on the Hero product is the same, from the standpoint of wanting to play the version that is available to the people we will be playing with. I just bought six copies of Sidekick and gave four away to prospective players, in an effort to convert them to the right way to game. But if those players turn around and get as involved with the Hero System as I think they might, they will eventually want to pick up the BIG book, as well as some of the supplements. If they do that, we're again looking at the same situation as we did with D20, though not as large a difference (for which I am glad).

 

I still don't want 5er for reasons that have nothing to do with money or revision, just my particular vision defect.

 

Here's a question that I have for anyone official who can answer it.

 

How hard would it be to make Fred available as a PDF download? It seems like it might be a workable solution. Let us pay $18-20 for the PDF, just like you've done with the Resource Kit. If I understand the percentages correctly (Bruce Harlick explained them in detail to me once) DOJ would continue to make money from Fred (at a greater percentage than through hard print distribution, though they should fix the typos) and the rest of us get a choice as to which version we use. (I really don't mind paying to get the thing printed -- also I can get it bound in the "lie flat" method, which I like. And I can use paper I can read more easily.)

 

For that matter -- put the FAQ and Additions in a second PDF and charge $15 for that. I'd buy that too.

 

That way, for those of us who really don't want 5er, for whatever reason, Fred is still an option.

 

That would be a very neat thing, and should take care of the bulk of complaints I've seen on the boards about this issue.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

How hard would it be to make Fred available as a PDF download?

 

Technologically, it's not hard at all. Policy-wise, it's virtually impossible. For a wide variety of reasons, we don't sell printed books in PDF form until they go out of print and we decide not to reprint them. Our business is based primarily on selling printed books, and that's what we prefer to stick with.