HERO 5th Revised

[incrdbil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

"Here's a question that I have for anyone official who can answer it.

 

How hard would it be to make Fred available as a PDF download?"

 

I'm not official, but making the PDF of a product thats basically outmoded is a waste of resources. It might be viewed as unfriendly competiton with the retailer end that you are hoping to carry your product and keep it exposed to gamers as well.

 

" It seems like it might be a workable solution."

 

Fred would be an unworkably large PDF.

 

"I really don't mind paying to get the thing printed"

 

I dont think that many others would be that eager. Companies have no good profit future in printing old editions to appeal of miniscule minorities of the market, no matter how vocal that minority is.

 

"For that matter -- put the FAQ and Additions in a second PDF and charge $15 for that. I'd buy that too."

 

then just buy 5Er--I mean really--you'll pay for Fred, pay for the FAQ and errata..but not buy the one book that puts them all together?

 

"That would be a very neat thing, and should take care of the bulk of complaints I've seen on the boards about this issue."

 

And be a financial bath for DOJ unfortunately, for all 10 copies that would sell.

 

There are plenty of Freds out there to find if you have new payers coming in. You'll get them cheap too, as others offload them and move on to 5ER.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

MadKestrel - I think you are missing the point. Vision issues aside (and I happen to like the paper/printing), these aren't new revisions. The EDM stuff mentioned above is in Sidekick (IIANM). Additionally, the entire FAQ is available in PDF (http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rulesfaq.htm) at no cost.

 

You mention yourself this would be an acceptable solution, and it already exists. You have no need to buy 5ER since you are happy with your current copy, the rules haven't changed significantly, and the FAQ is available for download for free.

 

So, I'm a little confused as to why you are so mad. You can have all the information that is in 5ER by buying Sidekick (of which you have 6 copies) and a free FAQ. Done. No further expenditure on your part.

 

Yet many of us appreciate the integration of a 200 page FAQ into the main rulebook and the correction of the errata. After 3 years I think that is a solid product offering and well worth my $50, especially considering that for my players who are happy with 5E they don't have to buy a new copy at all. If I get another 3 years out of my book, I will be satisfied that the $1.50 I spent per month to own it was well worth it. Considering a cup of Starbucks costs more I think that is a fair investment.

 

If 5ER made current materials defunct, I could understand your issues more clearly. But since it does not, and at worst only page references will be unusable to you in the future, I don't see the problem. If anything, you should be upset with Sidekick for having different EDM rules in it than 5E, since that's when any character with EDM and the appropriate adders became inaccurate. However, you seem very happy with Sidekick so I'm not sure what else to think. The changes that occured in 5ER occured in Sidekick as well, and those were few.

 

On a personal level, I don't want any fellow gamer to be mad at a company that does its best to take care of its fanbase. I hope any part of what I said makes you feel better about a) the situation and the purchase you already made.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

PS: I'll sell my copy of FRED for $40 if you want it. In fact, I'll send you $10 and trade you your 5ER.

[Guest MadKestrel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

PS: I'll sell my copy of FRED for $40 if you want it. In fact' date=' I'll send you $10 and trade you your 5ER.[/quote']

 

1) I'm not mad. I never said I was mad about 5er. I was confused about the need for 5er. So I came her to find out about it. I'm trying to talk people into giving up other systems to play HERO instead. (That's why I bought so many copies of Sidekick. I gave most of them away.) I want the system to look as good as possible to people who don't know anything about it. At our (not so) FLGS, the copies on the shelf are all warped. I'm wondering why that is. When I ask, people get upset.

 

2)I would like to buy 5er, but I probably won't because of the paper. I'd LIKE to buy 5er, because of the extra content, but I didn't buy it, so I can't make your trade.

 

We have one Fred right now. We have two Sidekicks left in the house and the software, as well as numerous supplements, so we'll probably just use what we have. I don't feel the need to purchase anything else (except the occasional supplement).

 

We've played Hero at our house for a very long time. When it came to Sidekick, I was willing to put my money where my mouth was. Now I've got four new people playing Hero that were buying D&D. They will probably buy supplements.

 

But when I come here to ask about it, if it isn't "All Hail DOJ, All Hail Steve Long!" people get altogether too defensive.

 

I asked, Steve answered.

 

That was enough for me.

[Gadodel]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

In retrospect although "Revised" is probably the literally correct term, the word itself in the gaming context probably carries too much baggage.

 

Perhaps "expanded" might have been a better title?

 

5th Edition with Supplements.

 

The book could remain black and green...but the word 'Supplements' could be 'Gray' or something.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

http://www.scifigenre.com/ has it for ~$40, as well, and you can get it on eBay for a dollar or two less than that on a regular basis.

 

Incidentally, SciFi Genre also has Spacer's Toolkit, by Ben Seeman, for ~15.00, which is a really good deal for that book.

 

Completely irrelevant to the thread, BUT...

 

Spacer's Toolkit is totally worth it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

MadKestrel, I'm truly sorry that you feel that some folks on the boards have been ganging up on you because of your questions and concerns about 5ER. Sometimes people take such concerns as criticism, or misinterpret a question. Sometimes they just have issues with a given position that go beyond that position's merits. That's just human nature, although the limitations of the Internet to convey subtleties of communication can contribute to misunderstandings.

 

For my part, I'd like to say that I haven't gotten 5ER yet and probably won't for some time; my gaming budget is limited, and there's already a backlog of HG books that I want to buy. I feel no urgent need to pick up the Revised version. From what I've been able to glean the only actual (minor) rule change in the new rulebook is to EDM, which change is also spelled out in The Mystic World and, I think, The Ultimate Mystic. Everything else that has been added is either reorganization to make the book easier to use (based on three years of publishing experience), play aids like those in Sidekick or the Genre By Genre PDF which Hero gamers seemed to appreciate, or the many rules clarifications and some additional Advantages, Adders etc. that have appeared in the FAQ and other published books since 5E was first published.

 

I don't feel a great need to get the new book because virtually all this new material is readily available to me from other sources. However, it is widely scattered and might be frustrating for a newcomer to HERO to try to acquire and coordinate.

 

The thing to remember about the publication of the Revised book is, Hero Games had before this time sold out of their stock of the original 5E (after several print runs) and were going to have to print new copies of their core book anyway to meet demand from new buyers. Rather than just reprint the original version again they decided to take the opportunity to integrate all this other stuff into it.

 

I'm sorry that you have a vision problem that makes the new paper unappealing to you. The paper issue is one that's been discussed on the boards ad nauseum; let's just acknowledge that the company balanced various issues to reach what they felt was an acceptable compromise, and leave it at that. I do agree that your choice of sticking with the old 5E is probably the best one for you, and like me you'll probably do just fine with it.

 

Maybe DoJ will decide to change the paper for a future print run, and you may choose to buy it then.

[tesuji]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Show me a single minion of the d20 legion of mindless followers who has actually followed through on their self-commitment to not completely upgrade to 3.5, and I'll show you someone who's out of touch with reality.

 

Hi, let me try for two.

 

i'm the first. i did not upgrade at first atall. i kept running my 3.0 game thru its three year run and ignored all the 3.5 stuff except for occasionally browsing the SRD. Then, when i signed on as a lead playtester for a d20 product that did use 3.5, I again used the SRD for my source material. i will do the same next month when i playtest another produict (they liked our work.)

 

The second is one of my players, who did buy the 3.5 books (the core 3), who did playtest with me, and who has run in several 3.5 games... but who has not continued the constant purchase of new 3.5 stuff.

 

are we out of touch with reality?

 

As for the "essential" nature of the revised DnD 3.5 and HERo5er, one of them punlished an open sourse SRD, which meant i needed buy nada. I assume (I haven't looked yet) HERO published the changes unique to 5er and such as well free for download somewhere.

 

So arguing that either was essential, in the face of the free availability of the material is rather odd, to me at least.

[Jade Tiger]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Something's wrong with the paper?

 

Haven't bought it yet, cause they (DoJ) seem to be all out and my local retailer doesn't carry it. But, I'm giving it serious thought, if and when I can find it anywhere.

 

What's wrong with the paper? Is it the same as the paper in FREd?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Something's wrong with the paper?

 

Haven't bought it yet, cause they (DoJ) seem to be all out and my local retailer doesn't carry it. But, I'm giving it serious thought, if and when I can find it anywhere.

 

What's wrong with the paper? Is it the same as the paper in FREd?

 

The paper isn't stark white. It's more of an off-white/cream colour, akin to that of an early 1970's comic book newsprint (on release, not aged 30 years). The color is the only thing that seems off - the paper isn't weak or substandard, as far as I can tell, and several posters with knowledge of the printing industry have indicated it's very high quality.

 

But it's not crisp snow white, and that seems to have thrown many for a real loop. One poster has indicated he has diffiuclty reading it due to a vision defect (his words). I haven't seen anything that indicates others have had a problem reading it.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Just so it's clear it isn't just one person's opinion, ditto to what Hugh said. As far as the paper and vision issues, if you don't have any vision issues, then you should be A-OK with the paper. If you do have vision issues, you're probably STILL just fine, depending a little on the nature of those issues. The easiest way to tell is to simply check it out at your local store. Most vision issues shouldn't matter, but from what I can tell it's issues with darkness/lightness that seem to be the category to consider. Personally, I need to update my prescription as I'm having trouble reading in less light quite a bit now whereas a year ago that wasn't true; I have no trouble with computer screens because they project light. In my case, the paper quality does make a slight difference, but not much, and as stated, it's clearly because I really have to go to the eye doctor ANYWAY, after which I should be reading 5ER just as well as anything else.

 

PS - and as others have stated, this paper is the same as in paperback books and such where you have that off-white quality. If you read those okay, then you should be just fine with 5ER.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

PS - and as others have stated' date=' this paper is the same as in paperback books and such where you have that off-white quality. If you read those okay, then you should be just fine with 5ER.[/quote']

 

I suspect that, if Hero had used this paper from the outset (say from 5e), no one would be commenting on the issue. Stark white paper isn't the norm in book publishing.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

I suspect that' date=' if Hero had used this paper from the outset (say from 5e), no one would be commenting on the issue. Stark white paper isn't the norm in book publishing.[/quote']

Hard to say, since 4th and 3rd and prior editions were all printed on a "whiter" (if not as stark white as 5th) paper. I tend to think they'd still be criticized, given that.

 

Purely personally, I still prefer the original Champions layout with that computer-looking typeface.

[Jade Tiger]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Oh. Well, if that's all it is, I'm not concerned.

 

Anybody know when DoJ is going to be doing another print run?

 

I've ordered from them in the past without getting e-screwed on quality or whatnot, and I'd like to stick with them.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

The new printing should take place sometime this month -- it depends on a whole bunch of factors, including when the printer can fit our relatively small jobs into its schedule.

[arthurfalls]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Just my thoughts on the Revision...

 

I know that the main rules had gone out of print, and that printing a flawed copy of the rules over a revised copy makes no sense. Not a problem.

 

The $10 increase in a little agitating. I'm not making an extra $10 since last year...

 

If there were revisions to be made, it would feel better to me if the company would release a PDF, comprehensive list of what was revised and what was not. Then poor bastards like me could use the PDF until I (inevitably) got sick of it and bought the new copy.

 

This method feels a little like the way my cable company treats me.

 

And don't get me started about Wizards of the Coast and their masters...

[Agent X]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Just my thoughts on the Revision...

 

I know that the main rules had gone out of print, and that printing a flawed copy of the rules over a revised copy makes no sense. Not a problem.

 

The $10 increase in a little agitating. I'm not making an extra $10 since last year...

 

If there were revisions to be made, it would feel better to me if the company would release a PDF, comprehensive list of what was revised and what was not. Then poor bastards like me could use the PDF until I (inevitably) got sick of it and bought the new copy.

 

This method feels a little like the way my cable company treats me.

 

And don't get me started about Wizards of the Coast and their masters...

For the most part, you can get the "revisions" in the FAQ. The changes in trigger and extradimensional movement would cost you though.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

The $10 increase in a little agitating. I'm not making an extra $10 since last year...

 

But the price increase is only 25%, and the book is over 50% bigger!

 

 

If there were revisions to be made' date=' it would feel better to me if the company would release a PDF, comprehensive list of what was revised and what was not. Then poor bastards like me could use the PDF until I (inevitably) got sick of it and bought the new copy.[/quote']

 

Most of the revisions are in the rules FAQ, avaiable in PDF format. http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rulesfaq.htm

 

 

This method feels a little like the way my cable company treats me.

 

And don't get me started about Wizards of the Coast and their masters...

 

See I don't understand this POV because could easily just keep using 5E, which is no way reduced in value by the release of 5ER. It seems a bit like complaining that the company who make your washing machine or DVD player released a new and better (and slightly more expensive) model and didn't give you one for free. (Which is something that consumer electronics companes do regularly every six months to one year and nobody seems to complain).

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

(snip) (Which is something that consumer electronics companes do regularly every six months to one year and nobody seems to complain).

 

Believe me, my in-laws, on a fixed income, do complain about this.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Believe me' date=' my in-laws, on a fixed income, do complain about this.[/quote']

 

Great, let's live in a world where nothing is ever improved upon, because it pisses off the consumers.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Great' date=' let's live in a world where nothing is every improved upon, because it pisses off the consumers. [/quote']

Heh, yeah, speaking of consumer dynamics, the funny thing is that my mother-in-law buys a cheap computer, gets poor phone support from India, then complains about that and how she's not going to support this sort of thing. Uh, the computer WAS cheap for a reason...

 

The one negative comment I can see that I think is valid about consumer electronics is that there is a great deal of built-in obsolence, as it were, deliberate short-sightedness in design and cheapness in parts to assure that turnover is necessary somewhat quickly. On that note, I've found some devices that are cheap but from reputable companies will last years and years while other devices that aren't so cheap but still from reputable companies are cheap inside and break quickly. Which is hard to account for when purchasing until you have experience with particular brands (and even then, they change, owing to managerial changes and different lines of products and all).

 

My original comment was just that indeed people do complain about what you mentioned. Heck, people complain period! I do think that's a bit of a part of the human condition, I think that the parable of Adam and Eve was in some large part about that. Without regard to the issues of knowledge and innocence, I think the moral of the story can simply be as to how everything but one thing can be perfect, and people will fixate on that one thing ("WHY CAN'T I EAT THAT APPLE?").

[Kelcyron]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

See I don't understand this POV because could easily just keep using 5E' date=' which is no way reduced in value by the release of 5ER. [/quote']

 

5E is reduced in value slightly by the release of 5ER, as it's been stated that answers to rules questions on the forum that are given purely as page references will only be 5ER page references. If you don't own or even have access to a 5ER, the page references don't do you much good.

 

Kelcyron

[Agent X]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

Great' date=' let's live in a world where nothing is ever improved upon, because it pisses off the consumers. [/quote']So, it's necessary that improvements make older computers incompatible with new software?

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

So' date=' it's necessary that improvements make older computers incompatible with new software?[/quote']

 

In some cases, yes. When software is built, the capabilities of the computer have to be taken into account. In order to make new software that has improved or expanded capabilities, you require more horsepower. Sometimes, that means the old computer simply won't handle it any more.

 

There are also cases where new operating systems are developed because the old ones simply don't do the job any more. When processors went from 8-bit to 16-bit, you couldn't take advantage of the capability in software unless you moved to a 16-bit computer. Or, you need protected memory because the old scheme causes the computer to crash too frequently. Or, you need to be able to multitask because the old task-switching strategy simply doesn't work for some applications. When that happens, the underlying system structure must change to accommodate the need. This means that any new software that needs those features has to have the new OS to operate.

 

A certain amount of backward compatibility can be exercised, and often is. However, at some point, the old standard has to be abandoned in favor of a new one with a radically different structure. It's not reasonable to expect everything to remain backward compatible forever.

 

You, as the consumer, always have to ask the question: Does my computer still do what I need it to? If the answer is "yes", then you can safely ignore anything new that's coming out. There's no need to upgrade unless there's something you must have in the new products.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: HERO 5th Revised

 

5E is reduced in value slightly by the release of 5ER, as it's been stated that answers to rules questions on the forum that are given purely as page references will only be 5ER page references. If you don't own or even have access to a 5ER, the page references don't do you much good.

 

Kelcyron

 

 

So on that basis a service which is provided completely free of charge, which many other similar companies don't provide and which DOJ have no obligation to provide is somehow twisted around to become a reason for complaint? Geez, the world is even more screwed up than I thought.

 

Quite apart from the fact that 90% of the questions addressed to Steve could be just as readily and easily answered by other board members in the HERO System Discussion board, many of whom I'm sure would be more than happy to give you a 5E page reference should you ask for it.