Ultimate Mystic Review

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I dunno A-X, I can see your point, and Christianity isn't generally touched upon in RPG's ...well, eccept Macho Women with Guns and you don't get that kind of gentule treatment anywhere...(sorry). I know it's your perogative to buy what you want and don't want.

Do you read DC Comics? They've done a "Treatment" on Christianity. I'm not at all certain any of the Vampire style games do or do not deal with Christianity or other religions, but I'd imagine they do. Where do you draw the line?

 

In the end the game is fiction. Your beliefs are not. I don't see how the former can be an affront to the latter.

 

But then I'm me and you're you.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I dunno A-X, I can see your point, and Christianity isn't generally touched upon in RPG's ...well, eccept Macho Women with Guns and you don't get that kind of gentule treatment anywhere...(sorry). I know it's your perogative to buy what you want and don't want.

Do you read DC Comics? They've done a "Treatment" on Christianity. I'm not at all certain any of the Vampire style games do or do not deal with Christianity or other religions, but I'd imagine they do. Where do you draw the line?

 

In the end the game is fiction. Your beliefs are not. I don't see how the former can be an affront to the latter.

 

But then I'm me and you're you.

The line is hazy. I role-play fantasy even though my religion doesn't have good things to say about sorcery. The hazy line pretty much seems to be an "ick" factor. Pseudo-Yahweh doesn't work for me. A Half-Angel/Half-Demon connected to a Pseudo-Yahweh doesn't work for me either. And DC definitely has gone to the "ick" side of my perspective plenty of times. I can deal with something like Marvel's Living Tribunal. I get the symbolism, but he's farther removed and doesn't trip the "ick" factor.

 

Besides the "ick" factor, I've just found Shomshack's cosmology to be... too tied up into a neat little bundle, too mechanistic. I probably would have picked up the book if they had relented from this strange need to make many Christians uncomfortable with some of the material in the book but I would have only been able to pick bits and pieces out of it for use. I certainly have no interest in Shomshack's Quasi-Kabbalistic cosmology nor the extension of the ill-advised notion that all of the HERO campaign settings are tied to some magical flux in one universe.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Okay. That's cool then. Carry on

[Savinien]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

So your saying your religion should have been treated special compared to all the other religions? How is that helping DoJ? By your doctrine, all religious people are being 'icked' out.

 

How revolting!

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

So your saying your religion should have been treated special compared to all the other religions? How is that helping DoJ? By your doctrine, all religious people are being 'icked' out.

 

How revolting!

Yep, your interpretation is revolting. Shomshack has done a pretty good job in the past and, from what has been said in this review, sounds like he has continued to push buttons concerning many Christian's sensibilities. I doubt a Buddhist would be much concerned. I imagine most Muslims would find his work to push buttons. I doubt pagans much care either. I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm telling the company why I won't buy the book. Get over it.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Agent X you come across as very arrogant on this topic where is this supposed respect for the rights of others to believe differently from you that you claimed earlier.

 

It seems like you believe it is only acceptable to look at your religion the way you do. You seem to be saying that it shouldn't be seen from different points of view different interpretations and defiantly not from a secular, agnostic or atheistic stand point.

 

Obviously you have very strong beliefs in how your religion should be interpreted and treated but you have no right to demand others do the same.

 

Quite frankly I'd rather you kept your religious doctrine to your self there is just no reason for you to publicly display your faith.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Agent X you come across as very arrogant on this topic where is this supposed respect for the rights of others to believe differently from you that you claimed earlier.

 

It seems like you believe it is only acceptable to look at your religion the way you do. You seem to be saying that it shouldn't be seen from different points of view different interpretations and defiantly not from a secular, agnostic or atheistic stand point.

 

Obviously you have very strong beliefs in how your religion should be interpreted and treated but you have no right to demand others do the same.

 

Quite frankly I'd rather you kept your religious doctrine to your self there is just no reason for you to publicly display your faith.

No, not for a minute, buddy. I'm not preaching though I am publicly acknowledging that my faith affects my decisions on what I purchase. You've got this turned around. I have repeatedly said I'm not trying to change anyone's minds about purchasing the book. I'm telling DOJ why I'm not going to buy the book and I'm doing it on a public forum to see if my interpretation of the review might be wrong. No one has come in and said they've given up on Pseuo-Yahweh yet though.

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather you kept your wishes to have other people shut up about why they don't purchase a book. Quite frankly, I'd rather you read what I posted instead of jump to conclusions. I made no demands.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

No, not for a minute, buddy. I'm not preaching though I am publicly acknowledging that my faith affects my decisions on what I purchase. You've got this turned around. I have repeatedly said I'm not trying to change anyone's minds about purchasing the book. I'm telling DOJ why I'm not going to buy the book and I'm doing it on a public forum to see if my interpretation of the review might be wrong. No one has come in and said they've given up on Pseuo-Yahweh yet though.

 

Quite frankly, I'd rather you kept your wishes to have other people shut up about why they don't purchase a book. Quite frankly, I'd rather you read what I posted instead of jump to conclusions. I made no demands.

Perhaps you should do something foolish like actually reading the sections of the book yourself before you go off on it. It's possible the reviewer's interpretations are incorrect and you're just ranting here for no valid reason. It's foolish for anyone to base their opinions on hearsay rather than fact.

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Now see' date=' with that last line it's pretty easy to see why you would dismiss my post so quickly. Guys, you're not changing my mind and you're not hurting my feelings by disagreeing with me. My religion is an ethical monotheistic religion that makes no room for other gods. I don't have respect for other religions. I have respect for others to believe differently than I do. There is a difference. I'm not saying I'm being fair. I'm saying I'm not buying the book because it isn't entertaining to me for somebody to design a universe that tries to take a "treatment" on my religion. I didn't call anyone names, I just pointed out that I'm not going to buy the book and why. [/quote']

 

I can go along with all of this. I've recently seen a debate on another forum about religion and a Bible literalist was challenged to explain why HIS God is right and the only one. He couldn't do that, but of course this is a question of faith.

 

And I'm hoping that DOJ thinks about it from a business perspective. What have they gained by including a "treatment" of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim God? What have they lost by including a "treatment" of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim God? I doubt anyone is saying they wouldn't have bought the book if it didn't touch on this area. Just something to think about.

 

And this is the bit I can't take. It's not enough to say that you won't buy it, but you are effectively saying that people should avoid certain topics, because they offend you. These aren't even inherently blasphemous things, judging fromthe descriptions, simply an alternate world theory of religion.

 

In my opinion:

 

Not buying it = fine and your decision made on your personal faith.

 

Making out that DoJ should have steered clear of a topic (which they knew would be tricky to handle) because it might not suit everyone = not so fine.

 

You want to know what they have lost by including a treatment of that God? They've lost readers who cannot accept that a game treatment of a subject doesn't mean that one must give up one's real world beliefs.

 

What have they gained? They've gained my respect for dealing with a thorny subject and not taking the ridiculous step of avoiding the whole issue and pretending it doesn't exist.

[Lightray]

The line is hazy. I role-play fantasy even though my religion doesn't have good things to say about sorcery. The hazy line pretty much seems to be an "ick" factor. Pseudo-Yahweh doesn't work for me. A Half-Angel/Half-Demon connected to a Pseudo-Yahweh doesn't work for me either. And DC definitely has gone to the "ick" side of my perspective plenty of times. I can deal with something like Marvel's Living Tribunal. I get the symbolism' date=' but he's farther removed and doesn't trip the "ick" factor.[/quote']

So, if Marvel has done this, and DC has done this, then you're basically complaining that a book written to include comic book tropes has been written to include comic book tropes?

 

Shocking.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Personally, I'm not all that hot on the HERO cosmology. According to Mystic World, if you encounter "the creator", if you enter the highest dimensional realm (which is the creator, and also where the creator is????) you become the creator. Huh? There are dimensions where you can be trapped within your own mind. Huh? All powers are really magic. Huh?

 

But really, Agent X, you openly admit that you don't ask for all religions to be off-limits territory -- just your own. If you wanted to be fair, then really you should have asked for all religious beliefs to be off-limits. As I explained earlier, though, that would make writing a gaming suplement about magic a little difficult.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Agent X you come across as very arrogant on this topic where is this supposed respect for the rights of others to believe differently from you that you claimed earlier.

 

It seems like you believe it is only acceptable to look at your religion the way you do. You seem to be saying that it shouldn't be seen from different points of view different interpretations and defiantly not from a secular, agnostic or atheistic stand point.

 

Obviously you have very strong beliefs in how your religion should be interpreted and treated but you have no right to demand others do the same.

 

Quite frankly I'd rather you kept your religious doctrine to your self there is just no reason for you to publicly display your faith.

Good grief. Doesn't anyone on this board have a decent reading comprehension level? All Agent X said was that he didn't like his religion being treated as fiction and for that reason, he wasn't going to be buying the book. He wasn't preahing that the author was a sinner and would burn in Hell for the treatment or callling for others to boycot the product. He just said that the treatment of Christianity would cause him (and possibly others) not to buy the book. This is no different than someone deciding they aren't going to buy UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom because the don't agree with the fictional treatment of the UN. Heck, he didn't go the over-the-top cliched route of declaring that he would never buy another Hero product again -- just the mystic-themed line as long as it included "Pseudo-Yahweh".

 

And just where did he spout any religious doctrine? Unless publicly admitting what religion you are is spouting religious doctrine. Does that mean I should be in trouble for publicly stating I'm an atheist?

 

I've seen a lot of people on these boards post a lot of stupid things that were more or less asking to be jumped all over, but a post by a Hero customer explaining why he wasn't buying a product (at a time when Hero is talking about soliciting information about customer's buying habits) is hardly one of those.

 

Rod

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Perhaps you should do something foolish like actually reading the sections of the book yourself before you go off on it. It's possible the reviewer's interpretations are incorrect and you're just ranting here for no valid reason. It's foolish for anyone to base their opinions on hearsay rather than fact.

Agent X said himself, he would consider buying the book if it didn't have Pseudo-Yawheh.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Agent X said himself' date=' he would consider buying the book if it didn't have Pseudo-Yawheh.[/quote']

And my point was he should actually check himself to see if the book does or does not have it rather than basing his ideas on what someone else has said.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Making out that DoJ should have steered clear of a topic (which they knew would be tricky to handle) because it might not suit everyone = not so fine.

I hope you are planning on being equally vehement against anyone who is critical of a Hero product because it doesn't meet their idea of what the product should contain. I really don't see Agent X's arguments about the fictionalizing of christianity to be all that different from people who are constantly arguing to see higher point characters in Champions products.

 

You want to know what they have lost by including a treatment of that God? They've lost readers who cannot accept that a game treatment of a subject doesn't mean that one must give up one's real world beliefs.

That's a tad extreme. Agent X described it as an "ick" factor not as something that threatened his belief system. I suspect it's not much different than the "ick" factor that some people get from extreme violence or sexuality in a work of fiction. Just something that doesn't sit right.

 

What have they gained? They've gained my respect for dealing with a thorny subject and not taking the ridiculous step of avoiding the whole issue and pretending it doesn't exist.

Well, I'm not sure that I'd call avoiding the issue a ridiculous step. But I will agree that they did likely gain respect from some customers (including myself) for dealing with it.

 

 

I should note that, in general, I am speaking of the inclusion of christianity and other religiions in the treatment of the mystical part of the Champions Universe and, not specifically, the Ultimate Mystic.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Good grief. Doesn't anyone on this board have a decent reading comprehension level? All Agent X said was that he didn't like his religion being treated as fiction and for that reason, he wasn't going to be buying the book. He wasn't preahing that the author was a sinner and would burn in Hell for the treatment or callling for others to boycot the product. He just said that the treatment of Christianity would cause him (and possibly others) not to buy the book. This is no different than someone deciding they aren't going to buy UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom because the don't agree with the fictional treatment of the UN. Heck, he didn't go the over-the-top cliched route of declaring that he would never buy another Hero product again -- just the mystic-themed line as long as it included "Pseudo-Yahweh".

 

And just where did he spout any religious doctrine? Unless publicly admitting what religion you are is spouting religious doctrine. Does that mean I should be in trouble for publicly stating I'm an atheist?

 

I've seen a lot of people on these boards post a lot of stupid things that were more or less asking to be jumped all over, but a post by a Hero customer explaining why he wasn't buying a product (at a time when Hero is talking about soliciting information about customer's buying habits) is hardly one of those.

 

He said he wasn't going to buy the book because his religion wasn't treated as off-limits or otherwise special by the author. Not all religions, and not because he didn't like the portrayal in particular, but because HERO dared to use his religion in a fictional context. As far as I can tell, he wants his religion to get special consideration, since it's like, "the truth" and stuff.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Yes' date=' that's true, but it's all still mystically related. Arcane Adversaries [b']is[/b] the Champions mystic enemies book and it is already out.

Now that I’m fully rested again, I remember that Dean Shomshak wrote [i}The Mystic World[/i] (oops!). I was confusing the TMW and TUM as far as where AE came from. I’d still like to know if the villain on the cover is going to show up in any official write-up, though.

[Savinien]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Yep' date=' your interpretation is revolting. Shomshack has done a pretty good job in the past and, from what has been said in this review, sounds like he has continued to push buttons concerning many Christian's sensibilities. I doubt a Buddhist would be much concerned. I imagine most Muslims would find his work to push buttons. I doubt pagans much care either. I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm telling the company why I won't buy the book. Get over it.[/quote']

 

The revolting comment was a joke playing on your use of the word 'ick'. So much ick-iness could cause someone to get sick... Get it? I still find your reason to lack much motivation for the company to shift gears as far as the customer base goes.

 

I guess we're glad to hear you're not interested in purchasing the product?

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Lost a customer for this book. It's not entertaining for someone to treat my religion as fiction' date=' as Shomshack has already done, and attempt to exploit my religion for role playing. Looks like DOJ doesn't want my business on the mystic-themed end.[/quote']

I should clarify. When I say that no religion gets special treatment in the book and Shomshak uses Campbell’s approach, I don’t mean that he debunks the New Testament. Shomshak carefully stays away from saying yes or no on the subject of Jesus’ or anyone else’s divinity. He simply points out the similarities between the story of Jesus’ life and the stories of other founders of religions(If one were feeling particularly ecumenical, one might deduce that there are certain events that are predestined to mark the lives of such individuals). I understand your dislike of the interpretation of kabballistic cosmology in TMW. It’s not to my taste, either, and I don’t use it. Shomshak only gives it a small mention because he already covered it exhaustively in TMW. The sample cosmology he gives is based on concentric crystal spheres and the pope persuading God to re-boot the world in 1000 A.D. to use science instead of magic and remove the direct influence of meddling spirits instead of ushering in Armageddon. I recommend that you at least look through the book or borrow a copy from someone before you make your final decision.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Your absolutely right agent X I'm sorry you didn't make any demands that were a misreading on my part. You are certainly expressing a desire for DOJ to change their mystic line to suit your beliefs I hope that’s fair. (The force of your conviction is probably what lead to my misreading.)

 

I don’t want you to shut up about why you won't purchase this book your third post was actually quite helpful as a reason for people to consider not purchasing this book but the stuff about your religious sensibilities is only helpful to those who share them and they wont be buying it either I assume.

 

You don’t like the way it handles your religion. I accept that and I respect that but I don’t have a problem with it and as I don’t share those beliefs it seems pointless to inform me and others like me of the offence this causes you.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Tomorrow, I'll try to post something I came up with while trying to shoehorn some of TMW into my preferences.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I was going to post some sanctimonious tripe about the original purpose of the thread being trampled by the attack/defense of AX's viewpoint, but then I remembered: I'm working on my own black belt in derail-fu!

 

Carry on!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

To sum.

Agent X has a valid point: He doesn't like the way the author portrays his religion. It's not a matter of debate for him

Others disagree.

 

Had someone posted a similar complaint about the treatment of a particular (Gender, Social Status, Organization, Wrestling Federation, what have you) in HERO they would be equally at odds with someone else.

 

Then the debate got a little mean.

 

Let's avoid the last step, shall we?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

You don’t like the way it handles your religion. I accept that and I respect that but I don’t have a problem with it and as I don’t share those beliefs it seems pointless to inform me and others like me of the offence this causes you.

So people can say they don't like a book but not say why?

[Rapier]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I dunno A-X, I can see your point, and Christianity isn't generally touched upon in RPG's ...well, eccept Macho Women with Guns and you don't get that kind of gentule treatment anywhere...(sorry). I know it's your perogative to buy what you want and don't want.

Do you read DC Comics? They've done a "Treatment" on Christianity. I'm not at all certain any of the Vampire style games do or do not deal with Christianity or other religions, but I'd imagine they do. Where do you draw the line?

 

In the end the game is fiction. Your beliefs are not. I don't see how the former can be an affront to the latter.

 

But then I'm me and you're you.

I don't think it is avoidable. How can you possibly discuss religious magic in a modern, near-real world setting (like CU) and NOT discuss the big 3? The alternative is to spend lots of time creating a new "pretend" religion that is, like as not, to be very similar to an actual RL religion.

 

Don't call it chritstianity, call if Smurfianity or Stevianity. It would still be a problem. This is one of those areas where, as far as RPG books are concerned, it's a lose-lose situation.