Ultimate Mystic Review

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I'll look it over at the store when they get it in.

 

I just remembered there is a sidebar character called Chrysador(sp?) who is a Greek demigod and the son of Aphrodite and a war angel. She seduced him just to prove she could. Don't know if that crosses your bounds, but the only other character I remember is the product of Archimago's experimental crossbreeding between human women and twelve devils that was mentioned in TMW.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I just remembered there is a sidebar character called Chrysador(sp?) who is a Greek demigod and the son of Aphrodite and a war angel. She seduced him just to prove she could. Don't know if that crosses your bounds' date=' but the only other character I remember is the product of Archimago's experimental crossbreeding between human women and twelve devils that was mentioned in TMW.[/quote'] I'll stare at it. I got lucky with the Mystic World. Someone else I know picked it up and I got to peruse it before I went out and bought a bad fit for me.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Geez, if the kid-gloves treatment of your religion as a minor part of a fictional work has a major "ick factor", then Saviel or the CU's character that's the child of Aphrodite and an angel of war must give you the hives.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Geez' date=' if the kid-gloves treatment of your religion as a minor part of a fictional work has a major "ick factor", then Saviel or the CU's character that's the child of Aphrodite and an angel of war must give you the hives.[/quote'] Kristopher, grow up. You've no right to be so condescending.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Kristopher, grow up. You've no right to be so condescending.

 

[Richard Logue]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Are there rules/suggestions in The Ultimate Mystic for familiars such as imps or homunculi? And if not, is there anything in the Fantasy HERO line about using them? I ask because I am kicking around a concept in my head for an occult-based character that will have one, and I'm wondering if there's been any groundwork already laid for them.

 

Richard Logue

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Are there rules/suggestions in The Ultimate Mystic for familiars such as imps or homunculi? And if not, is there anything in the Fantasy HERO line about using them? I ask because I am kicking around a concept in my head for an occult-based character that will have one, and I'm wondering if there's been any groundwork already laid for them.

 

Richard Logue

 

Well, the Bestiary has a template of abilities for a familiar animal, including "Magical Communication," "Magic Augmentation" and "Shared Senses" (cost 74 points). It's on page 25, and there's an example of it applied to a normal cat on p. 222. You could readily add it to the character sheet for the Homonculus on p. 88, or the demonic Imp on p. 50.

 

As I don't have UM yet I'm afraid I can't tell you if it goes into more detail on the subject.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Tomorrow' date=' I'll try to post something I came up with while trying to shoehorn some of TMW into my preferences.[/quote']

I never liked the idea the The Slug could force a soul Transform on a person. (Besides, I think it would be more horrific to be a prisoner in your own body and forced to watch yourself do terrible things than to have no indication that you weren’t really an Elder Worm. Think of Hellraiser II where we discover that Pinhead was transformed from a victim of the Lament Configuration box and rebelled against Leviathan after he was reminded who he really was.) Nor did I care for the Essailes and Demon-handed from the Turakian Age snatching souls from each other because it seemed to me this negated the whole point of free will. I didn’t like the cosmology presented in TMW, but got it to mine for ideas. So starting from the premise that Heaven and Hell are real and independent of Earth, I had to figure out a scheme in which I could have magic, psionics, spirits, gods, God, the Devil, aliens, etc. I drew a lot of ideas from In Nomine and a handful from The Adept series by Kurtz and Harris and threw in some as they came to me.

 

Excerpt from Researches of Forgotten Lore, a tome by wizard and scholar Cyria Nendramro of Mykar, circa 230 Million B.C.

 

In beginning, the One created a seed from which grew the multiverse. As it grew further and further away from the One, its substance became less and less fine until, at last, the outermost shells became the Material Realms. The One saw that it was good and was pleased. The One’s goal was to create a grand tapestry of life where possibility after possibility could be explored. Paramount to its goal was to allow free choice to every living thing yet provide gentle guidance to each being as it made its way to its place in the Creation Symphony.

The One knew, however, that direct intervention on its part would overwhelm its creations. The One solved this by creating two servants: Ul and Rin. Their purpose was to watch over the One’s creation in keeping with the One’s goals. Ul decided that the best method was to teach beings to govern themselves and gently, subtly guide them to their ultimate place in the perfection of the Symphony. If they stumbled on the way, Ul reasoned that with help even mistakes could spur them onward. Rin had other ideas. Rin’s believed that by exerting more control and eliminating unnecessary random elements, each being could speedily reach its place in the Symphony without all the inevitable suffering that would result from mistakes. Ul and Rin could not reconcile their disagreements and finally brought the matter before the One. The One favored Ul’s plan.

Rin could not accept the seeming paradox that imperfection could be a component of perfection. To prove the point, Rin arranged cataclysms that destroyed several universes.

Ul recoiled in horror at the act and the One banished Rin from it’s presence until Rin learned humility. This was The Sundering. Not only was Rin cut off from the One and the glory of the Creation Symphony, but it was also cut off from its twin, Ul. From one dominion came two, for Ul and Rin not only shared the realm of Anshara, these two beings were this foundational realm.

Rin remained convinced that it was right and made plans to try again to show the One the error of allowing imperfection into Creation. Grieving, Ul continued its work without its twin. In time, both realized that they also existed on too high a level of reality to interact meaningfully in any way with the inhabitants of the lower realms. Both hit upon the idea of dividing their consciousness into multiple beings. Ul became both the Celestial Realm and its personification, the Celestine. Rin became both the Infernal Realm and its personification, The Dragon. From Ul’s consciousness came angels, daevas and kindly spirits. From Rin’s consciousness came demons, devils, and imps. Thus began a hidden war with the multiverse as the prize. Rin, now The Dragon, discovered that it could capture living souls and harvest their energies to make up for losing the sustaining power of the Creation Symphony. The Dragon’s corruption was complete, even to the point that it forgot why it rebelled and simply embraced corruption as a means of feeding its power forever and ever.

 

From Archmage Sun Haifeng to his apprentice, Harrison White:

 

My son, I sense a question burning inside you, one that you fear to ask. You have studied the accounts of ancient gods and the men who dealt with them. In your youth, you were taught that there is only one True God and all others are the false, vain imaginings of men. It troubles you to discover that there is some truth behind the ancient tales because it makes you question everything upon which you base your life. Let me assure you that by the definition you were taught, there is only one originator of the multiverse. None of the gods that dwell in the Astral Realms can even begin to approach that level of power. However, they are spirit beings strengthened by the devotions of their worshippers and can empower a select few of their followers with favors and mystical gifts. But this is not the answer you seek. Let us say that insofar as religions lead people into the Light, they are true. This is not a satisfying answer, I know, but it is the best you will find before you pass, I hope, beyond the Cradle of Harmony. Some of the gods have allied themselves with the Infernals in exchange for a portion of power that comes from trafficking in souls. Others have found some common causes with the Celestials. Most prefer to remain aloof and look for ways to re-establish their old dominions.

There is a rumor that during the Dark Ages, the god Odin was bitter that the Christian religion did not collapse with Rome. He was so bitter that he did not even attempt to curb the worst dishonorable excesses of his followers during their raids on the rest of Europe. Indeed, he stood by while the Infernals and the fomori goaded them on. One lone valkyrie became so disgusted that she left the halls of Valhalla and petitioned the Celestials for entrance into their service. She was accepted and became a patroness of those who protect the innocent. This is only a rumor, but I cannot discount it out of hand.

[Steve Long]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Are there rules/suggestions in The Ultimate Mystic for familiars such as imps or homunculi? And if not, is there anything in the Fantasy HERO line about using them? I ask because I am kicking around a concept in my head for an occult-based character that will have one, and I'm wondering if there's been any groundwork already laid for them.

 

UMY doesn't cover the subject of familiars in much detail. For the sort of information you're looking for, check out The HERO System Bestiary, which of course LL has already mentioned.

[Richard Logue]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Thanks Lord Liaden and Steve. I had flipped through my Arcane Adversaries and The Mystic World last night but to no avail. Not sure I had even considered the Bestiary... LoL... Odd.

 

And thanks for the page numbers, speeds things up.

 

Richard

[zornwil]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Just bought it today!

 

And it gets added to the half dozen or so other HERO books remaining to be read...

[Haerandir]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

(snip)

I'm saying I'm not buying the book because it isn't entertaining to me for somebody to design a universe that tries to take a "treatment" on my religion. I didn't call anyone names, I just pointed out that I'm not going to buy the book and why. And I'm hoping that DOJ thinks about it from a business perspective. What have they gained by including a "treatment" of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim God? What have they lost by including a "treatment" of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim God? I doubt anyone is saying they wouldn't have bought the book if it didn't touch on this area. Just something to think about.

 

Fair enough. I'm not going to criticize you for your religious beliefs. I will dispute your conclusions, however. If the Ultimate Mystic didn't include any 'treatment', however cursory, of the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, that would be an issue for me. Not for religious reasons, but for reasons of failure to provide a thorough discussion of the material. Not, perhaps, as much an issue as the presence of such a treatment would be for you, but it would affect my purchasing decision, and if I had to choose between a 'God-less' UMY and a product I felt was more complete and, frankly, more honest in its treatment of the subject, UMY would lose out.

 

I don't think it unlikely that, if DoJ had chosen to publish an edition of UMY that mentioned other religions, but specifically avoided any references to matters Biblical, we'd have a few people in here commenting on that. Might even cost DoJ a sale or two. Maybe with one version they'd lose more Christians, with another they'd lose more pagans, with a third they'd lose more agnostics. Who can say? I certainly don't think DoJ has the resources or the mandate to attempt a rigorously scientific study on the subject.

 

Ultimately, I think the right call is the all-inclusive approach, especially in UMY, a book which is meant to be a broad overview of a subject which is itself extremely broad.

 

And, all else aside, MitchellS is right. I'll accept that your intent was to be helpful by providing feedback to the company. But, said feedback is really only valid if it's based on actual informed opinions, rather than a kneejerk reaction to a single clause, not even an entire sentence, in a brief fan review on a web site. A review that doesn't even name the religious system you claim to be treated offensively in the book you haven't even skimmed, much less read. Nobody here cares whether you're Christian, Buddhist or a self-proclaimed Druidic Jedi Ninja. We do care if you form inaccurate beliefs about the game we all play, because, if you're expressing those beliefs here, you're likely to express them elsewhere, and ultimately we'll have to put up with people who've never even heard of you telling us, "I won't play Champions because I heard on the Internet that they're Anti-Christian." Or whatever. It's hard enough getting new folks to play with me because of the dreaded "math-heavy" stigma. Or, worse, you actually might succeed in your attempt to influence DoJ's publishing decisions based on such a shaky examination of the book in question.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Fair enough. I'm not going to criticize you for your religious beliefs. I will dispute your conclusions, however. If the Ultimate Mystic didn't include any 'treatment', however cursory, of the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God, that would be an issue for me. Not for religious reasons, but for reasons of failure to provide a thorough discussion of the material. Not, perhaps, as much an issue as the presence of such a treatment would be for you, but it would affect my purchasing decision, and if I had to choose between a 'God-less' UMY and a product I felt was more complete and, frankly, more honest in its treatment of the subject, UMY would lose out.

 

I don't think it unlikely that, if DoJ had chosen to publish an edition of UMY that mentioned other religions, but specifically avoided any references to matters Biblical, we'd have a few people in here commenting on that. Might even cost DoJ a sale or two. Maybe with one version they'd lose more Christians, with another they'd lose more pagans, with a third they'd lose more agnostics. Who can say? I certainly don't think DoJ has the resources or the mandate to attempt a rigorously scientific study on the subject.

 

Ultimately, I think the right call is the all-inclusive approach, especially in UMY, a book which is meant to be a broad overview of a subject which is itself extremely broad.

 

And, all else aside, MitchellS is right. I'll accept that your intent was to be helpful by providing feedback to the company. But, said feedback is really only valid if it's based on actual informed opinions, rather than a kneejerk reaction to a single clause, not even an entire sentence, in a brief fan review on a web site. A review that doesn't even name the religious system you claim to be treated offensively in the book you haven't even skimmed, much less read. Nobody here cares whether you're Christian, Buddhist or a self-proclaimed Druidic Jedi Ninja. We do care if you form inaccurate beliefs about the game we all play, because, if you're expressing those beliefs here, you're likely to express them elsewhere, and ultimately we'll have to put up with people who've never even heard of you telling us, "I won't play Champions because I heard on the Internet that they're Anti-Christian." Or whatever. It's hard enough getting new folks to play with me because of the dreaded "math-heavy" stigma. Or, worse, you actually might succeed in your attempt to influence DoJ's publishing decisions based on such a shaky examination of the book in question.

This was pretty much over. I had said my peace. However, my "knee-jerk" reaction was based on previous experience with Dean Shomshack's work both 4th and 5th edition, statements made on the boards by DOJ, and the review. I even mentioned I'll check out the book. However, if what that one line in the review hints at is true I won't be buying it.

 

Your religion analysis seems a little hard for me to believe based on the content of the Mystic World and the nuances of real world religions. I sincerely doubt many people would have foregone the book if it had left Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alone. And to lump those religions in with animistic, polytheistic religions really misses the point. A central organizing princple of these monotheistic religions is the omnipotence and the central, unassailable authority of their god. I doubt polytheists would be quite as disturbed to see stats for their gods as would monotheists. There is a big "ick" factor there. The simple nature of the religion means many monotheists will be sensitive to issues most polytheists won't.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

I doubt polytheists would be quite as disturbed to see stats for their gods as would monotheists. There is a big "ick" factor there. The simple nature of the religion means many monotheists will be sensitive to issues most polytheists won't.

 

With sincere respect for your views, my experience with practicing Hindus strongly suggests that the above statement is incorrect, as does the time I've spent reading the work of Western polytheists.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

With sincere respect for your views' date=' my experience with practicing Hindus strongly suggests that the above statement is incorrect, as does the time I've spent reading the work of Western polytheists.[/quote'] Okay, then why haven't I heard any concern? ever?

 

I've not seen one person on this board who has complained about avatars of Thor or Ushas. I imagine I wouldn't be the only person who complained if the company decided that an avatar of Jesus was walking around in the CU.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

This was pretty much over. I had said my peace. However, my "knee-jerk" reaction was based on previous experience with Dean Shomshack's work both 4th and 5th edition, statements made on the boards by DOJ, and the review. I even mentioned I'll check out the book. However, if what that one line in the review hints at is true I won't be buying it.

 

Your religion analysis seems a little hard for me to believe based on the content of the Mystic World and the nuances of real world religions. I sincerely doubt many people would have foregone the book if it had left Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alone. And to lump those religions in with animistic, polytheistic religions really misses the point. A central organizing princple of these monotheistic religions is the omnipotence and the central, unassailable authority of their god. I doubt polytheists would be quite as disturbed to see stats for their gods as would monotheists. There is a big "ick" factor there. The simple nature of the religion means many monotheists will be sensitive to issues most polytheists won't.

 

And?

 

So what?

 

Maybe DoJ made a conscious decision to not bother with catering to the hothouse sensitivities of a subset of the population.

 

After driving around town and seeing yet another church or temple or mosque or whatever on every third corner, after seeing "in god we trust" on every bit of US currency, after hearing references to god in the daily operation of government (congressional chaplains) and schools (the damn pledge of obeisance), after trying to find some music on the radio and hearing some idiot blather on about hellfire and brimstone on every other channel, after having religion come between me and people I love -- their religion and their priorities, mind you -- after instance upon instance of "believers" expecting the rest of the world to revolve around their miserable, moralizing, misanthroping nonsense, after being told more than once that, no really, I have to believe in something, I really don't give a flying pig if your precious little monotheistic sensitivities get stomped into the fricking mud. Get over yourself.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

That was so utterly uncalled for.

[Kristopher]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

That was so utterly uncalled for.

 

It was entirely called for. I'm sick of people expecting the world to revolve around their beliefs. If I have to put up with religious nonsense every day, then religious people can put up with someone not treating their crap like the end-all and be-all of existance once in a while.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Okay, then why haven't I heard any concern? ever?

 

I've not seen one person on this board who has complained about avatars of Thor or Ushas. I imagine I wouldn't be the only person who complained if the company decided that an avatar of Jesus was walking around in the CU.

 

Why haven't you heard concern in your daily life? How many devout polytheists do you interact with? In my time doing EFL and ELT I've met a few, but I haven't interacted with all that many outside of those settings.

 

Why haven't you heard any concern on these boards? Probably demographics. I'm sure that there are many devout Christians on these boards; so far I've only heard one or two express concern about how Christianity is portrayed in the CU, though I expect more feel a twinge about it. If the population of these boards follows the patterns of the American populations as a whole (big "if" considering our large number of English speaking non-American posters), the number of polytheists who are both devout and sensitive about how theirs religion are represented who are reading these boards is likely quite small.

 

The objections I've heard occured in face-to-face conversations with students and co-workers over the years, and in the writing of Isaac Bonewitz and others.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Why haven't you heard concern in your daily life? How many devout polytheists do you interact with? In my time doing EFL and ELT I've met a few, but I haven't interacted with all that many outside of those settings.

 

Why haven't you heard any concern on these boards? Probably demographics. I'm sure that there are many devout Christians on these boards; so far I've only heard one or two express concern about how Christianity is portrayed in the CU, though I expect more feel a twinge about it. If the population of these boards follows the patterns of the American populations as a whole (big "if" considering our large number of English speaking non-American posters), the number of polytheists who are both devout and sensitive about how theirs religion are represented who are reading these boards is likely quite small.

 

The objections I've heard occured in face-to-face conversations with students and co-workers over the years, and in the writing of Isaac Bonewitz and others.

Well, I think it just comes down to the tastes of DOJ and market decisions. If enough people start feeling "icky" it could endanger their bottom line. And I can tell you, paper-thin artifice like "this is not really Yahweh, he just looks and acts like Yahweh and thinks he's Yahweh" is icky to me. And Thor and Ushas supers aren't icky to me. It may not be fair in the minds of others but I don't have to buy books designed for entertainment based on that.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

It was entirely called for. I'm sick of people expecting the world to revolve around their beliefs. If I have to put up with religious nonsense every day' date=' then religious people can put up with someone not treating their crap like the end-all and be-all of existance once in a while.[/quote'] I'm rather happy you just let it all out. Let's me know where you really stand.

[Agent X]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Now, I'm happy to stop responding to this thread if folks stop responding to my posts. (I would have been happy to stop some time ago.)

[Lightray]

Well' date=' I think it just comes down to the tastes of DOJ and market decisions. If enough people start feeling "icky" it could endanger their bottom line. And I can tell you, paper-thin artifice like "this is not really Yahweh, he just looks and acts like Yahweh and thinks he's Yahweh" is icky to me. And Thor and Ushas supers aren't icky to me. It may not be fair in the minds of others but I don't have to buy books designed for entertainment based on that.[/quote']

It does not come down to the tastes of DOJ. It comes down to the purpose of the book itself.

 

DOJ is writing a book to help players emulate what they see in comics for Mystic characters. As you noted, both DC and Marvel make use of pseudo-Christian mysticism. Therefore, by the very nature of the book, DOJ needs to include such things.

 

It is naieve to think that DOJ would willfully ignore a major trope of the genre they're describing, just so they would not offend the delicate sensibilities of a vocal minority. In fact, if their sensibilities were so delicate, they probably wouldn't be reading DC's or Marvel's mystic-oriented comics in the first place -- and hence, are not the target market for TUM.

[Lightray]

With sincere respect for your views' date=' my experience with practicing Hindus strongly suggests that the above statement is incorrect, as does the time I've spent reading the work of Western polytheists.[/quote']

Heck, the only practicing Thor-worshipper -- an "Asatu", or something like that -- told me he first learned about Thor from reading Marvel comics.

 

Which can hardly be taken as a good representation of any interpretation of Norse religion -- either the historical or the modern-day reinterpretation.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Mystic Review

 

Heck, the only practicing Thor-worshipper -- an "Asatu", or something like that -- told me he first learned about Thor from reading Marvel comics.

 

Which can hardly be taken as a good representation of any interpretation of Norse religion -- either the historical or the modern-day reinterpretation.

 

Personally I see a distinction between a Hindu born into a predominantly Hindu nation, raised as a Hindu, married as a Hindu, and raising her children as Hindus, and an American who declares himself to be a Thor wortshipper, but that probably shows my own bias.