Speaking of Shapeshift

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

 

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

 

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".

 

 

* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.

Yeah, but I'm assuming he wants to deceive the senses of others as well as be able to use the power independent of the pool, but he'll have to answer that authoritatively.

 

I'm aware you've had involvement there, as well as this thread is predated by others, just referring to the one that was the most recent concentrating on the topic at great length. it sounded like you wanted to make more points in response to Kristopher and I was hoping you would both take it there if you really wanted to rehash that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

 

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

 

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".

 

 

* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.

In the case of the character I'm making, I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Yeah' date=' but I'm assuming he wants to deceive the senses of others as well as be able to use the power independent of the pool, but he'll have to answer that authoritatively.[/quote']

Well, in Animal Boy's case, he doesnt really deceive anyone -- a green Ape is probably him, and people that have seen him change shape even once get that pretty quickly.

 

Characters that can both assume a form to gain abilities, and also change shape just to fool people are no problem; instead of taking an animal based lim on the control cost of the "Shapechange" VPP, just take a Limited Power "Form Change Abilities Only" -1/4. Shapeshift would certainly be allowed in such a VPP. When the character just wants to maquerade as something else but doesnt want any powers while doing it just activates SS in their VPP.

 

A character with Shapeshift paid for outright and a VPP for shape based abilities is also viable, although the point of that would be to activate "Ape Powers" or whatever, while Shapeshifting to look like a Donkey, or that dude over there. It's largely redundant and silly.

 

In comics parlance, Mystique = Shape Shift; Animal Boy = either a VPP or a Multiform.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

In the case of the character I'm making' date=' I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.[/quote']Well, two points:

 

1. Yes, a VPP can be used for different SFX without applying Variable SFX to everything. (For example, a mage can cast a fire spell and a lightning spell with his VPP, even though they're both Energy Blasts, without buying VSFX on them.)

 

2. Shape Shift doesn't affect the SFX of your other Powers in any way, regardless. In other words, if you had Flight without VSFX, simply having Shape Shift wouldn't automatically give it VSFX.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

In the case of the character I'm making' date=' I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.[/quote']

Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

 

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

 

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

 

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

 

etc etc etc.

 

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Well, in Animal Boy's case, he doesnt really deceive anyone -- a green Ape is probably him, and people that have seen him change shape even once get that pretty quickly.

 

Characters that can both assume a form to gain abilities, and also change shape just to fool people are no problem; instead of taking an animal based lim on the control cost of the "Shapechange" VPP, just take a Limited Power "Form Change Abilities Only" -1/4. Shapeshift would certainly be allowed in such a VPP. When the character just wants to maquerade as something else but doesnt want any powers while doing it just activates SS in their VPP.

 

A character with Shapeshift paid for outright and a VPP for shape based abilities is also viable, although the point of that would be to activate "Ape Powers" or whatever, while Shapeshifting to look like a Donkey, or that dude over there. It's largely redundant and silly.

 

In comics parlance, Mystique = Shape Shift; Animal Boy = either a VPP or a Multiform.

Shrug, if "Animal Boy" is not recognizable as such in his various forms, I'm going to say he's shifted shape. If he's recognizable, I agree.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

 

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

 

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

 

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

 

etc etc etc.

 

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.

Depends on the extent, but it may be verging on an abuse with what Multiform and/or Shape Shift are designed for, and one is not supposed to use one power to do what another one already properly does. I'm not saying your statement is incorrect per se, but there's a point where it may be easily stretching too far.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?

 

Shapeshift shouldn't be constructed as deceiving anything -- that's what Images and Mental Illusions are for. Shapeshift should actually shift the character's shape. There's no deception if the character really has assumed the physical likeness of something or someone else.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

 

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

 

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

 

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

 

etc etc etc.

 

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.

I see your point, but...

 

Would you allow a character that bought some Armor and a HKA to turn into a Rhino when he says they're on, and then turn into a man when they're off? I wouldn't. I might allow a man to turn into a Rhino-man when he turns his Armor on, but that's about it. Turning into a completely different shape requires Shape Shift, regardless of what other Powers you might have.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think a lot if it has to do with the implied as much as explicit utility of the shapeshifting and KS has introduced an excellent topic/concern.

 

Where this is has been clearly legitimized in the rules, aside from the reference KS has cited, is the change in the treatment of size. One can be any given size and it doesn't cost or detract points in and of itself.

 

However, changing size is a power. Interestingly, simply changing from size to another is in and of itself a utility, and not merely for combat purposes, whereas simply being a given size is not of sufficient utility to pay points for.

 

So "changing" state is at some level, at some point, a power. Being a rhino-man naturally has never costed anything. Changing into a rhino-man as powers are manifested is also not in and of itself of a specific game value, and of course it's always been that way. The book indicates that Instant Change is a value only for "Characters who want to alter their clothing without using another Power..." Which is a subtle but important distinction in that Superman shouldn't have to have Instant Change - he merely has to "turn on" his Flight as far as mechanics go. So even speed of change is not important or relevant anymore in HERO terms.

 

But there is a utility to being able to change state in general. In fact one must pay for Shape Shift to turn into merely a single shape, which reflects the comment above regarding Instant Change - it has utility in the absence of turning on any other power.

 

Of course being able to be not simply rhino-man but a rhino may take on enough disads for that state that perhaps the disads outweigh the Shape Shift cost (setting aside any argument over the number of Senses which must be bought to be a rhino shape or perceived as a rhino shape, as the case/argument may be).

 

So the ability to simply change clothing or change shape in the absence of using another power actually requires invocation of a power. And the ability to change shapes more flexibly is written with costs and is certainly implied IMO by the way the book discusses such to be of sufficient additional value that it should not be presumed to be an automatic benefit of having many different powers with different SFXes. However, if the powers enforce a particular appearance, or if a particular appearance is merely a heroic 'state" if you will, there is certainly book-sanctioned room, as KS cites, for there to be no additional cost. I think the boundary has to do with the restriciveness of how the powers inform the shape change/state. If the change is merely to some specific and singular form that carries with it no significant advantages and in no significant way obfuscates the identity of the changer other than obfuscating a "base" identity, then treating it as of no game value in points is fine. However, if Animal Man in shifting to being different animals bears no relationship in identification to being other animals, I argue there is a significant value and he should pay for Shape Shift; as he shifts to each form he not only has gained a new utility in his ability to navigate and in which crowds he can travel in, but he also has gained additional identity-changing ability - stressing that the assumption here is he doesn't have the same human face, for example, on each version or some other, even if less obvious, clear thing that "brands" his various identities as a single being.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Bit of a long one: sorry.

 

Anyone who has read the other shapeshift threads knows where I stand on this one but, to address the original question (and at the risk of repeating in dumbed down form what Zornwil has said)

 

Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

 

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?

 

You need to decide what effect the shape changing has. If it doesn't really have any effect but is pure SFX, with balanced, but minor advantages and limitations, it is not IMO shape shift at all, it is SFX/activation of powers, whatever. if no one ever believes that you are anyone other than MorphoLass, no matter what you look like, it shouldn't really cost anything.

 

If it can be used to fool people either into thinking you are someone else you need to use shape shift or something similar, and you need to buy the sense groups that you can fool. That'll probably be touch and sight, maybe hearing too if you can sound different.

 

THEN you need to decide how often you can fool someone, and look up the generic limitation table. If you can only do it when you have a bright light behind you and appear in silhouette, then that has to be somewhere between -1 and -2. If it works unless someone makes a PER roll, I'd say probably -1/2.

 

If you do need shapeshift and you need to be able to do it to access your VPP then you should get the linked limitation, and the level will depend on the relative APs of the shapeshift and the VPP. Draining the shapeshift cripples the VPP.

 

Zornwil mentions size change. I would have very similar comments about that: the abilty to change size should probably be a power you pay points for, but I'd be inclined to get rid of all the combat bonuses/penalties and characteristic boosts, and make size change one power, payable at 5 points per doubling or halving (or less if I could persuade people that 5 points shouldn't be the basic cost of everything, I'd make it 2 or 3 points per level), and you link powers to it, or even allow a new and interesting form of framework, something like a multipower, or a modified multiform that allows you to change just some powers, but retain the basics) to simulate the relevant changes. Being able to change size (and to a lesser extent mass) can be useful, but generally isn't: it is mainly a sfx. It is more useful than having a fixed size, but probably isn't worth the cost at present.

 

Simply because I can not resist putting in my sixthof a shilling, old money, I have thought about this and I am grudgingly willing to accept that shape shift can operate as a sense power (even though they call it a body power), but the problem to my mind is that it is a hybrid: it fools senses (perfectly: no PER roll, unless you are attempting imitation), but it also actually does change your shape, otherwise you couldn't use it to get out of ropes or squeeze through small spaces. Ropes don't have or need senses, even touch (you can't escape ropes, for example, with a touch flash!), so it isn't just effecting senses. The power as writ is not really doing what it claims it is, or rather is doing more! I think it is this that is the seed of my confusion and that in turn seeds my dislike of this iteration of the power.

 

I would agree that shape shift as presented at the moment should be absorbed into invisibility and images (but probably not darkness), but the abilty to escape ropes and slip through small (but not tiny) openings should be an adder for stretching, or a limitation on desolid or (shock horror!) both. IMO.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Simply because I can not resist putting in my sixthof a shilling' date=' old money, I have thought about this and I am grudgingly willing to accept that shape shift can operate as a sense power (even though they call it a body power), but the problem to my mind is that it is a hybrid: it fools senses (perfectly: no PER roll, unless you are attempting imitation), but it also [i']actually does change your shape[/i], otherwise you couldn't use it to get out of ropes or squeeze through small spaces. Ropes don't have or need senses, even touch (you can't escape ropes, for example, with a touch flash!), so it isn't just effecting senses. The power as writ is not really doing what it claims it is, or rather is doing more! I think it is this that is the seed of my confusion and that in turn seeds my dislike of this iteration of the power.

While I agree that Shape Shift in general could be defined a bit more tightly, I disagree with the idea that it (always) changes your shape. There are certainly valid SFX of Shape Shift that don't involve literally changing shape at all (such as a super-Disguise effect).

 

Although a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, I do wonder if changing the name of Shape Shift might help. Perhaps it could be called "Morph" or something, with a base effect of changing your appearance (and only your appearance) vs one sense group. Then you can pile on adders to be able to affect more sense groups, imitate specific beings, have the morphing extend down to the cellular level, actually change your shape (within the constraints of not being large enough to warrant Growth, small enough to warrant Shrinking, or elongated enough to warrant Stretching), etc.

 

In fact, a thought just struck me. I think I'm going to make it a house rule that Shape Shift (as written now) only allows you to actually alter your physical shape if you've purchased it so that it affects the Touch Sense Group. How could you rationally claim you changed shape if touching you didn't reveal the change?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I see your point, but...

 

Would you allow a character that bought some Armor and a HKA to turn into a Rhino when he says they're on, and then turn into a man when they're off?

If that's how theyve defined the SFX of their powers, then yes.

 

I wouldn't. I might allow a man to turn into a Rhino-man when he turns his Armor on, but that's about it. Turning into a completely different shape requires Shape Shift, regardless of what other Powers you might have.

 

Read "Activation of Powers", page 103 in 5ER, particularly the part about "...even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character, his powers, or his equipment."

 

 

If the SFX of the character's Powers is "look like a Rhino" then they dont need to buy Shape Shift to "look like a Rhino" when they use their Powers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Shapeshift shouldn't be constructed as deceiving anything -- that's what Images and Mental Illusions are for. Shapeshift should actually shift the character's shape. There's no deception if the character really has assumed the physical likeness of something or someone else.

As I already covered in a past thread, changing forms has two primary purposes. One is the change into a shape that grant's abilities (like grow wings or claws, run faster, etc), the other is to deceive.

 

In the HERO System you buy other abilities using the appropriate Power; thus if you want to grow wings and fly you model that with Flying, claws with HKA, senses with Enhanced Senses, and so on.

 

That leaves only one use for a "Shape Shift" power, which is the deception portion of it.

 

If you look at Shape Shift's implementation in 5th Edition that is how it is set up; you buy the ability to alter other's perception of you vs specific senses. Mechanically it is built like a Sense Effecting power. If you want to alter the way various senses detect you and call the SFX of that "I changed into some other shape" that's a perfectly valid and common SFX for the Power to model, but mechanically all that matters is what senses are fooled by your altered shape.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think a lot if it has to do with the implied as much as explicit utility of the shapeshifting and KS has introduced an excellent topic/concern.

 

Where this is has been clearly legitimized in the rules, aside from the reference KS has cited, is the change in the treatment of size. One can be any given size and it doesn't cost or detract points in and of itself.

 

However, changing size is a power. Interestingly, simply changing from size to another is in and of itself a utility, and not merely for combat purposes, whereas simply being a given size is not of sufficient utility to pay points for.

 

So "changing" state is at some level, at some point, a power. Being a rhino-man naturally has never costed anything. Changing into a rhino-man as powers are manifested is also not in and of itself of a specific game value, and of course it's always been that way. The book indicates that Instant Change is a value only for "Characters who want to alter their clothing without using another Power..." Which is a subtle but important distinction in that Superman shouldn't have to have Instant Change - he merely has to "turn on" his Flight as far as mechanics go. So even speed of change is not important or relevant anymore in HERO terms.

 

But there is a utility to being able to change state in general. In fact one must pay for Shape Shift to turn into merely a single shape, which reflects the comment above regarding Instant Change - it has utility in the absence of turning on any other power.

 

Of course being able to be not simply rhino-man but a rhino may take on enough disads for that state that perhaps the disads outweigh the Shape Shift cost (setting aside any argument over the number of Senses which must be bought to be a rhino shape or perceived as a rhino shape, as the case/argument may be).

 

So the ability to simply change clothing or change shape in the absence of using another power actually requires invocation of a power. And the ability to change shapes more flexibly is written with costs and is certainly implied IMO by the way the book discusses such to be of sufficient additional value that it should not be presumed to be an automatic benefit of having many different powers with different SFXes. However, if the powers enforce a particular appearance, or if a particular appearance is merely a heroic 'state" if you will, there is certainly book-sanctioned room, as KS cites, for there to be no additional cost. I think the boundary has to do with the restriciveness of how the powers inform the shape change/state. If the change is merely to some specific and singular form that carries with it no significant advantages and in no significant way obfuscates the identity of the changer other than obfuscating a "base" identity, then treating it as of no game value in points is fine. However, if Animal Man in shifting to being different animals bears no relationship in identification to being other animals, I argue there is a significant value and he should pay for Shape Shift; as he shifts to each form he not only has gained a new utility in his ability to navigate and in which crowds he can travel in, but he also has gained additional identity-changing ability - stressing that the assumption here is he doesn't have the same human face, for example, on each version or some other, even if less obvious, clear thing that "brands" his various identities as a single being.

 

 

Yes, if he is attempting to maquerade as something not recognizable as himself -- his purpose is to deceive/blend in and not change form for some utility ability, then Shape Shift would be the power to use. However, my point is that for such characters that can do BOTH, it's perfectly valid to take Shape Shift in their form change VPP when they want that utility, rather than buy a VPP and Shape Shift. Further it is particularly unecessary to link Shape Shift to a VPP to accomplish a build even if the character did buy a Shape Shift outside of their VPP for some reason.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Question -- in Norse mythology Loki changed shape into a woman and gave birth. How would you build this in HERO? Shape-Shift.

 

If I want to change my hand to operate a control designed for an alien, how would I do that? Shape-Shift.

 

My hand really alters shape so I can manipulate the control. I don't *deceive* the control into letting me alter it. And Loki doesn't deceive anyone into letting him be pregnent.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Question -- in Norse mythology Loki changed shape into a woman and gave birth. How would you build this in HERO? Shape-Shift.

Actually, he changed into a form that had a capability that his normal form lacked, so Multiform may have been involved.

 

Shape Shift wouldnt have allowed him to do anything different than his normal form allowed. He merely would have LOOKED like a pregnant woman with Shape Shift.

 

 

If I want to change my hand to operate a control designed for an alien, how would I do that? Shape-Shift.

 

My hand really alters shape so I can manipulate the control.

 

That would depend entirely on how the "control designed for an alien" were defined in mechanical terms.

 

I don't *deceive* the control into letting me alter it. And Loki doesn't deceive anyone into letting him be pregnent.

Then don't use Shape Shift, because that's what Shape Shift does -- alter the way various senses detect you.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

As I already covered in a past thread, changing forms has two primary purposes. One is the change into a shape that grant's abilities (like grow wings or claws, run faster, etc), the other is to deceive.

 

In the HERO System you buy other abilities using the appropriate Power; thus if you want to grow wings and fly you model that with Flying, claws with HKA, senses with Enhanced Senses, and so on.

 

That leaves only one use for a "Shape Shift" power, which is the deception portion of it.

 

If you look at Shape Shift's implementation in 5th Edition that is how it is set up; you buy the ability to alter other's perception of you vs specific senses. Mechanically it is built like a Sense Effecting power. If you want to alter the way various senses detect you and call the SFX of that "I changed into some other shape" that's a perfectly valid and common SFX for the Power to model, but mechanically all that matters is what senses are fooled by your altered shape.

 

If that's true, then there's absolutely no use for Shapeshift at all. Just use Images with limitations. It's cheaper, and has always been an artificial sensory experience, instead of a power that used to do something different -- actually change the form of the character -- that has since been definied into meaninlessness.

 

Additionally, I would never, for any reason, allow a character to only buy the Sight Sense Group for Shapeshift. If all a character is doing is creating the image of something else, then that's Images, no range, self only. Touch will be required with Sight. For some effects, Hearing or Smell/Taste might work alone, but in each case the character really is chaning the way his voice sounds, or what he smells like. That's not a sensory deception.

 

And that's what it really comes down to. With Shapeshift, the character really is changing somehow -- it's not just a sensory deception. If it is just a sensory deception, then there are other Powers -- Images, Mental Illusions, etc -- that are better suited for the task.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

If that's true' date=' then there's absolutely no use for Shapeshift at all. Just use Images with limitations. It's cheaper, and has always been an artificial sensory experience, instead of a power that used to do something different -- [i']actually change the form of the character[/i] -- that has since been definied into meaninlessness.

It's not meaningless; it just doesnt mean what you seem to think it does.

 

As far as Images vs Shape Shift; youll note that my position is that Shape Shift, Images, Darkness, and Invisibility should be combined into one power with various options.

 

Additionally, I would never, for any reason, allow a character to only buy the Sight Sense Group for Shapeshift.

 

That's not really relevant, since the rules permit you to do so.

 

If all a character is doing is creating the image of something else, then that's Images, no range, self only. Touch will be required with Sight. For some effects, Hearing or Smell/Taste might work alone, but in each case the character really is chaning the way his voice sounds, or what he smells like. That's not a sensory deception.

 

The end result is the same.

 

And that's what it really comes down to. With Shapeshift, the character really is changing somehow -- it's not just a sensory deception. If it is just a sensory deception, then there are other Powers -- Images, Mental Illusions, etc -- that are better suited for the task.

 

 

Read the power description. "A character with Shape Shift can change his form as perceived by one or more Sense Groups without altering his powers or other abilities." and "The cost for Shape Shift depends on whether the change affects a Targeting or Nontargeting Sense Group.

 

 

Shape Shift is categorized as a Body-Affecting Power, but it functions like a limited Sense-Affecting Power.

 

You can label it whatever you like, but functionally it behaves like a Sense Affecting power.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

No one denies in HERO 5th Edition it "behaves like a Sense Affecting power," that's a given. The issues discussed had to do with its diversity of properties in gameplay, the interaction with Senses in gameplay, and the value, elegance, and appropriateness of the current construction.

 

PS/EDIT - to Kristopher's point, if you buy Shape Shift vs Touch, 5ER at least (may also be in 5) indicates you actually do alter your shape.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

As to the above, the comment vs Touch is not in 5th, but in 5ER.

 

And more, from 5th Edition and in 5ER, it says "Shape Shift is related to, but different from, Multiform. Shape Shift allows a character to change his form, but not his powers or abilities. ... When building powers related to changing shapes, players should carefully evaluate those two Powers to determine which one is best suited to create the ability desired." In 5ER it indicates "most" shape changes should probably affect both Sight and Touch.

 

While of course it performs per the rules as a Sense Affecting power, it should be noted the same rules establish it has a foot in the Body powers as well with a real component of physical change.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

The end result is the same.

 

Which means very little to me, really -- my view of the game is not so utterly mechanistic.

 

Read the power description. "A character with Shape Shift can change his form as perceived by one or more Sense Groups without altering his powers or other abilities." and "The cost for Shape Shift depends on whether the change affects a Targeting or Nontargeting Sense Group.

 

Shape Shift is categorized as a Body-Affecting Power, but it functions like a limited Sense-Affecting Power.

 

And this is one of the things that DoJ completely screwed up on in Fifth Edition. In this case, I honestly couldn't care less what the description in the book has to say. Shapeshift is not a sense-deceiving power, and should not be constructed as one. There's no deception going on -- a character that uses Shapeshift is actually changing something, not just appearing to change something. Classifying Shapeshift as a Sense-based power makes about as much sense as classifying a Ranged Killing Attack as a Sense-based power.

 

"Well, everyone perceives the character as dead..."

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I can see uses for Shape Shift when it is appearance and not per se shape. Images has a limitation in that it's PER-based, whereas SS is not. To simulate a particular type of character where it projects an image about itself that people perceive but is actually varied from its solid shape, right now Shape Shift is the only way. And I don't think it's misusing the power in a reason-from-effect sense, in that this is one of those instances where "Shape Shift" in its broadest sense works. So I think the issue is a combo of perception and body shifts; the important thing to me is to just require that SS have 3 senses that can detect it with options to buy Invisible Power Effecs still. With that flexibility you can build what I just described well enough (and the senses that would detect it would be touch, radar and other such powers, typically).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Which means very little to me, really -- my view of the game is not so utterly mechanistic.

 

 

 

And this is one of the things that DoJ completely screwed up on in Fifth Edition. In this case, I honestly couldn't care less what the description in the book has to say. Shapeshift is not a sense-deceiving power, and should not be constructed as one. There's no deception going on -- a character that uses Shapeshift is actually changing something, not just appearing to change something. Classifying Shapeshift as a Sense-based power makes about as much sense as classifying a Ranged Killing Attack as a Sense-based power.

 

"Well, everyone perceives the character as dead..."

 

You appear to be very literal, so Ill clarify what I mean by "deception".

 

If you dont look like yourself, that is a deception. If you do something and are perceived as not being who you really are, that is a form of deception. Onlookers think they are gaining information regarding your identity but are not gaining information on your real, actual, non-altered appearance.

 

If you put on a mickey mouse suit, people that see you dont see you, they see Mickey Mouse. They have been deceived.

 

Comprende?

 

 

What I am saying is that there are only two practical, measurable uses for altering your form: to gain abilities based on form or just to look (smell, etc) like something else. In the HERO System you buy abilities using OTHER powers, leaving Shape Shift with nothing to do except change how you are perceived. Unsurprisingly, thats all it does.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift, your senses aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.