Speaking of Shapeshift

[Dust Raven]

Funny there should be an interesting Shapeshift/Multiform thread already on the board when I have this question, but I figure I shouldn't derail that thread.

 

Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

 

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?

[Silbeg]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Wouldn't that just be a distinctive features on the character:

 

15 Distinctive Features: Green

Not Concealable, noticed by common senses.

 

Then, since it is not concealable, his shapeshift wouldn't be able to disguise the color (I would rule).

[Mentor]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Funny there should be an interesting Shapeshift/Multiform thread already on the board when I have this question, but I figure I shouldn't derail that thread.

 

Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

 

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?

Personally, I would apply a -1/2 limitation, depending on your campaign. Not only is disguise eliminated ("That green gorilla is obviously Beast Boy!") it might even create bigger problems for the PC. ("All officers be on the look out for Beast Boy, as a green gorilla was reported in the vicinty of the nosuchthingium robbery".)

[TaxiMan]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I've used SS: Touch Group to change physical shape only. The sight group "appearance" isn't modified, so you still look like Plastic Man, for example.

 

Beast Boy does a better job (you can't tell he's BB, but the shape is always colored green), so I'd ask for SS: Sight Group, Limited Power "Always Green" (-1).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I've used SS: Touch Group to change physical shape only. The sight group "appearance" isn't modified, so you still look like Plastic Man, for example.

 

Beast Boy does a better job (you can't tell he's BB, but the shape is always colored green), so I'd ask for SS: Sight Group, Limited Power "Always Green" (-1).

 

This sounds about right to me as well. The orthodox rules answer to altering your shape without otherwise changing colors, textures, relationship of facial features etc. is SS: Touch Group. Beast Boy/Changeling always looks like the creature he changes into other than coloration, unless the natural creature itself is green. Partly for that last reason I think I'd peg the "Always Green" Lim at -1/2, but it's a judgement call.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'd go with the -1/2.....of course, i think the orthodox rules that Shape Shift requires buying senses is silly.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Very silly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

This is a classic case of not concealable Distinctive Features.

 

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not silly, but should be combined with Images, Invisibility, and Darkness as a single customziable "Sense Affecting" power. But thats covered in another thread.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Also, I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'd go with Multiform, given that he actually gains the abilities of the form that he shifts into: if he turns into a gorilla, he's stronger, if he turns into an eagle, he can fly. Shapeshift can't do that for you.

 

Zeropoint

[Bengal]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

To me, "always green" sound smore like a distinctive feature

than a power lim. Both ideas seem within the rules and technically correct.

 

If two players wished to play the same concept (say, a Beast Boy and a Plastic Man), I would rule that they would both have to agree on how to limit the power/disadvantage their characters.

 

 

As an aside, Grant Morrison (pfft) established that Plastic Man can modify his coloration, even to the point of masquerading as someone else. He even fooled the Injustice Gang into believing he was the Joker for an extended period of time.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

It could even just be Stretching if the assumption of shape is nothing more than simple body alteration with no other game effect.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

This is a classic case of not concealable Distinctive Features.

 

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not silly, but should be combined with Images, Invisibility, and Darkness as a single customziable "Sense Affecting" power. But thats covered in another thread.

 

It's the construction of Shape Shift as a sense affecting power that's all wrong, though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Also' date=' I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.[/quote']

Actually, I've gotten the concept down as Shapeshift with a VPP for simulating the abilities of the shape (althrough in Beast Boy's case, the shape might simply be the SFX of the VPP abilities, which is a perfectly valid method of doing that, assuming his shapes actually granted the character abilities).

 

A related question... kinda.

 

Speaking of VPP for Shapeshift. Say we have a character that isn't limited by color/texture and actually assumed a completely different form that doesn't look a thing like his natural form, and can gain abilities from having that form (bird form grants Flight, a metal form grants Armor, etc.). Now say I'm writing him up using a VPP for those various abilities.

 

If is fair to put the Linked (to Shape Shift) Limitation on the VPP (at the -1/4 value)? Technically, its the right thing to do, since if the Shape Shift goes away or isn't used, the VPP can't be used at all. On the other and, all the Powers in the VPP automatically get a -1/4 Limitation on them. I'm currently leaning toward allowing it, but though I'd get everyone's opinion first.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I would, because so long as it is legitimately non-functional if the Shape Shift goes down, you are reasonably stuck. We have a character with this exact same construct in my game, I missed you wanted to emulate the abilities of things you shaped as (sorry 'bout that) earlier. I don't have a problem with his dependency on Shape Shift, particularly as in freezing weather he can't Shape Shift and it shuts down his ability to shift anything and in general lose some power (it's a bit differently constructed but seems to work well).

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

PS - and I think so long as it's clear the VPP depends on the Shape Shift (and it usually is with these characters) the Lim is okay as it will get used.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

It's the construction of Shape Shift as a sense affecting power that's all wrong' date=' though.[/quote']

Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Actually, I've gotten the concept down as Shapeshift with a VPP for simulating the abilities of the shape (althrough in Beast Boy's case, the shape might simply be the SFX of the VPP abilities, which is a perfectly valid method of doing that, assuming his shapes actually granted the character abilities).

 

A related question... kinda.

 

Speaking of VPP for Shapeshift. Say we have a character that isn't limited by color/texture and actually assumed a completely different form that doesn't look a thing like his natural form, and can gain abilities from having that form (bird form grants Flight, a metal form grants Armor, etc.). Now say I'm writing him up using a VPP for those various abilities.

 

If is fair to put the Linked (to Shape Shift) Limitation on the VPP (at the -1/4 value)? Technically, its the right thing to do, since if the Shape Shift goes away or isn't used, the VPP can't be used at all. On the other and, all the Powers in the VPP automatically get a -1/4 Limitation on them. I'm currently leaning toward allowing it, but though I'd get everyone's opinion first.

 

 

You dont need Shapeshift for that at all. Read the "Activation of Powers" section of the rulebook.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?

There's been a long thread on this recently at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23737&highlight=shapeshift

 

Essentially, it doesn't merely deceive senses but may alter the physical form, which has consequences beyond sensory, which is a fundamental part of the discussion, without getting any deeper than that, as the thread does.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

You dont need Shapeshift for that at all. Read the "Activation of Powers" section of the rulebook.

I'm guessing he wants to actually have the benefits of shapechanging in and of itself, though, and he doesn't want his VPP to work unless he can change shapes. But you raise a good point if those aren't all the desired effects.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not silly

I agree. I think folks get too hung up on the idea of Shape Shift somehow equalling "Shape Change" from AD&D or something...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Also' date=' I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.[/quote']There really ought to be some kind of Advantage (or something) you can apply to Multiform that allows you to take any form within a certain scope of forms. (Any animal form, any elemental form, etc.) The cost would be based on the breadth of possible forms.

 

As it stands, I think it's needlessly complex and overly expensive in the HERO System to build characters who can assume a wide variety of forms.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

There's been a long thread on this recently at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23737&highlight=shapeshift

 

Essentially, it doesn't merely deceive senses but may alter the physical form, which has consequences beyond sensory, which is a fundamental part of the discussion, without getting any deeper than that, as the thread does.

 

Eh, there has been discussion on it here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9281&page=6&pp=20&highlight=shapeshift

 

and my original pass on it started here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=454256&postcount=20

 

on this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22255&highlight=shapeshift

 

 

 

Currently, the way Shapeshift is designed it functions like a Sense Affecting power. IMO it could be combined with Darkness, Invis, and Images into a single Sense Affecting Power.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'm guessing he wants to actually have the benefits of shapechanging in and of itself' date=' though, and he doesn't want his VPP to work unless he can change shapes. But you raise a good point if those aren't all the desired effects.[/quote']

 

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

 

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

 

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".

 

 

* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

There really ought to be some kind of Advantage (or something) you can apply to Multiform that allows you to take any form within a certain scope of forms. (Any animal form, any elemental form, etc.) The cost would be based on the breadth of possible forms.

 

As it stands, I think it's needlessly complex and overly expensive in the HERO System to build characters who can assume a wide variety of forms.

 

A GM could allow a flat modifier by form type I suppose; but that basically becomes the same as a VPP of Multiforms.