Speaking of Shapeshift

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

You appear to be very literal, so Ill clarify what I mean by "deception".

 

...

 

Comprende?

 

Remember when someone said you sometimes appear condescending?

 

This is one of those times.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift' date=' your [b']senses[/b] aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.

But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland, and in fact, isn't even really someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

 

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

 

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

 

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland' date=' and in fact, isn't even [i']really[/i] someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

 

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

 

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

 

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.

But a cosmetic change can still be a true shift of shape; it's not as if it is necessarily merely a change of imagery, the thing "cosmetically" changing may be physically changing (though not, to your point, changing mentally or spiritually).

 

In this, it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

In this' date=' it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.[/quote']To me, this is why Shapeshift is a sort of hybrid Body-Changing Power and Sense-Affecting Power. The extent of its body alteration is to allow some increase in size (but less than a single level of Growth), some decrease in size (but less than a single level of Shrinking), or some malleability in shape or reach (but less than a single level of Stretching). And I would only allow (and 5ER may concur -- I don't have it with me) even those minor alterations if Touch was one of the senses the Shape Shift affected.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

To me' date=' this is why Shapeshift is a sort of hybrid Body-Changing Power and Sense-Affecting Power. The extent of its body alteration is to allow some increase in size (but less than a single level of Growth), some decrease in size (but less than a single level of Shrinking), or some malleability in shape or reach (but less than a single level of Stretching). And I would only allow (and 5ER may concur -- I don't have it with me) even those minor alterations if Touch was one of the senses the Shape Shift affected.[/quote']

5ER doesn't limit the change in size to Touch but the discussion does, IIRC, speak to malleability and such. It's a detailed discussion which is interesting and adds a lot to the original 5th commentary. It does point out in 5ER that by taking Shape Shift against Touch the change is real and physical, which is not the case with the other senses.

 

(edited to remove unnecessary, as they were already stated, opinions)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift' date=' your [b']senses[/b] aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.

 

You perceive an altered state; that is a deception. You think the person is Kathy Ireland, or whoever but they manifestly are not.

 

Further, depending upon what senses the person's shape shift are purchased to affect, that person may appear to be Kathy Ireland or whoever to some senses and not vs others.

 

You seem very hung up on the idea that Shape Shift very literally means a change in form, but the power does not function like that. It may indicate a change in form, it may indicate an illusion, it may indicate a very specific form of "Mental Illusions", it may indicate a costume, or any other SFX whose end EFFECT is modeled via the mechanical construct labeled as "Shape Shift".

 

It's just a mechanic. What you do with it is a SFX.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Remember when someone said you sometimes appear condescending?

 

This is one of those times.

If you prefer to interpret explanatory as condescending, c'est la vie.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

But a cosmetic change can still be a true shift of shape; it's not as if it is necessarily merely a change of imagery' date=' the thing "cosmetically" changing may be physically changing (though not, to your point, changing mentally or spiritually). [/quote']

Which makes no difference from a mechanical stand point.

 

It doesnt matter if you conceptually changed shape or not from a mechanical perspective -- all that matters is what senses your Power effects.

 

Altering form or not altering form is a matter of SFX. It makes no actual difference in resolution.

 

In this, it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.

 

Shape Shift the Power does not provide any utility. It only alters the way you are perceived.

 

If you want to change into a smaller form to squeeze thru an opening, use Shrinking. If you want to change into a form with elongated limbs use Stretching, if you want to change into a form with super-strong legs use Leaping, and so on and so forth.

 

The HERO System already has a mechanic to allow this sort of thing -- it's called a Variable Power Pool; or alternately if you have a limited set of well-defined forms, Multiform.

 

If you want to "Shape Change" to gain utility abilities on the fly, use a VPP or MF. If you just want to appear to be something else, use Shape Shift.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Which makes no difference from a mechanical stand point.

 

It doesnt matter if you conceptually changed shape or not from a mechanical perspective -- all that matters is what senses your Power effects.

 

Altering form or not altering form is a matter of SFX. It makes no actual difference in resolution.

 

 

 

Shape Shift the Power does not provide any utility. It only alters the way you are perceived.

 

If you want to change into a smaller form to squeeze thru an opening, use Shrinking. If you want to change into a form with elongated limbs use Stretching, if you want to change into a form with super-strong legs use Leaping, and so on and so forth.

 

The HERO System already has a mechanic to allow this sort of thing -- it's called a Variable Power Pool; or alternately if you have a limited set of well-defined forms, Multiform.

 

If you want to "Shape Change" to gain utility abilities on the fly, use a VPP or MF. If you just want to appear to be something else, use Shape Shift.

 

I don't understand why you're denying there's a utility distinct to Shape Shift in that one purchases simply that power to be able to fit through a hole, to fit in a space, to frighten someone by appearing as a bear (or whatever), and so on. Yes, you can buy Shrinking, Stretching, and PRE for these 3 things, but the singular power grants all of these in some fashion (not PRE directly, obviously, but the opportunity to perform an unexpected social interaction that accomplishes much the same for a small end of the scale).

 

PS - plus as indicated above, the book itself indicates that the ability is for shape changing and indicates to consider whether you want Shape Shift or Multiform - not whether you want Shape Shift or a VPP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

We can all shapeshift: see I've made my hand into a fist...

 

My badly stated point from a couple of days ago is that I accept that shape shift as writ allows you to actually change shape (but only really if you have it vs touch), but it is built and presented as a sense affecting power and called a Body power and (unless 5ER (or 'Julie' as I will now be calling her) has changed that - and I wouldn't know because i can't get hold of the damn book) it doesn't do actual shape shifting very well. Shape shift should maybe have a different name (or be amalgamated with other powers) and NOT shift your shape. You can change your texture or skin temperature with it, or look a different shape, but to actually change shape I reckon you should have an adder, probably to stretching. it just makes absolutely no sense (to me, and pun, as alawys, intended) to say shape shift can change your mass a bit, your height a bit or allow you to actually change shape a bit. have it do what it does (perfectly fool the senses) and have the other bits built with other powers. My main gripe with the power is this hybridisation that it has undergone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Morphicus wants to be able to change shape into a 9 foot tall gorilla. Not actually change into a 9 foot gorilla, you understand, just change his shape to that form. He doesn't get any characteristic bonuses or other powers. He'll get some reach and that's about it. Shapeshift? No, actually, you can't change your height that much. Looking like a gorilla isn't a massively useful power unless you are playing in a game where gorillas are common. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable use of shape shifting, but you can't do it (you can assume the form of a small gorilla, but not a big one)

 

Why not just add a +10 point adder to images : Perfect (doesn't allow a PER roll unless imitating something specific and unique), then buy a few points of growth or stretching?

 

Why, when we come down to it, do we need shape shift as it stands?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

If you prefer to interpret explanatory as condescending' date=' c'est la vie.[/quote']

When you make psychological characterizations of others, such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

When you make psychological characterizations of others' date=' such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.[/quote']

 

What's this? Shape shift vs psychological senses? Kewl. Or possible Krewl...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I don't understand why you're denying there's a utility distinct to Shape Shift in that one purchases simply that power to be able to fit through a hole' date=' to fit in a space, to frighten someone by appearing as a bear (or whatever), and so on. Yes, you can buy Shrinking, Stretching, and PRE for these 3 things, but the singular power grants all of these in some fashion (not PRE directly, obviously, but the opportunity to perform an unexpected social interaction that accomplishes much the same for a small end of the scale).[/quote']

The write up for Shape Shift specifically states that it does not change the characters abilities.

 

As far as appearance based effects, by default appearance has a limited and conditional effect on Interaction and PRE Attacks, which all characters have for free already, so altering appearance to enhance that free function of appearance is not a violation of the basic idea that Shape Shift doesnt grant any additional abilities.

 

PS - plus as indicated above, the book itself indicates that the ability is for shape changing and indicates to consider whether you want Shape Shift or Multiform - not whether you want Shape Shift or a VPP.

 

To the best of my knowledge none of the power writeups recommend a Framework. That doesnt change the fact that Frameworks are often the most direct way to model complex characters.

 

Are you suggesting that if a character wants to use a wide array of different powers as needed dynamically, but doesnt intend to use all of them simultaneously, a VPP isnt an excellent way to model that?

 

Are you suggesting that if I want my character to sometimes grow wings and fly and sometimes grow claws to attack with and sometimes run on all fours for extra running, VPP isnt an obvious and rules-correct way to go about having those powers when I want them?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

When you make psychological characterizations of others' date=' such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.[/quote']

 

On the other hand, if I think he is being overly literal and I think he is hung up on semantics rather than function, then stating so is an expression of my opinion and is explanatory of what I think.

 

Are you suggesting that Im not entitled to my opinion?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

If you actually want to change into different creatures then you need multiform, no question to my mind.

 

If you want to be Mr Amorphous Blob that can change shape (but not appearance per se) and gets powers based on the shape (growth, stretching, HKA, running, clinging, whatever) I'd use a VPP (spit hooooooowwwwwwlllllllll!!!) without requiring shape shift at all; it is all sfx, even though you do actually change shape.

 

If you want to be able to look like other things (but not actually become them) and get powers based on the form, buy shapeshift and link a VPP e.g. you look (and smell) like a bear, you got strength and claws, but none of the enhanced senses or IQ problems.

 

A 'true' shapeshifter should probably have a single power VPP (multiform) but is not welcome in my games, as it will take forever...shapeshift with a linked VPP (or a couple of linked MPs, one with size and density slots, one with wings, claws, armour, running etc, all multi slots...) works best IMO for most 'versatile' shapeshifters though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

On the other hand, if I think he is being overly literal and I think he is hung up on semantics rather than function, then stating so is an expression of my opinion and is explanatory of what I think.

 

Are you suggesting that Im not entitled to my opinion?

 

No one is entitled to an opinion: an opinion is just a statement you are not willing to justify. You're perfectly entitled to your well reasoned arguments but maybe, just maybe, if you are trying to convince the crowd it doesn't advance your case much if your well reasoned arguments might be interpretted as a personal attack. You can say what you like about me, though, I'm a Robot Replicant at present and don't take anything personally.

 

I am hung up on the name though, sorry. Shape shift sounds too much like something shifting shape to get the notion out of my head, even though I know all about sfx (or at least what mummy and daddy explained to me about sfx when I saw them doing the bad thing....) and I can accept that an energy blast can be a rubber bullet.

 

I'm also hung up on the fact (in my opinion, which I'm not entitled to, see above) that it used to work just fine in 4th ed. and didn't need to have its shape shifted.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

The write up for Shape Shift specifically states that it does not change the characters abilities.

 

And yet...that's not relevant to my point. As clearly Shape Shift is used for the purposes of fitting in spaces and such whereas it might be difficult or impossible without other powers. And the rules in fact do state that Shape Shift vs. Touch creates an actual change in shape. And there is a value ot an actual change in shape...or this power would not exist as such.

 

As far as appearance based effects, by default appearance has a limited and conditional effect on Interaction and PRE Attacks, which all characters have for free already, so altering appearance to enhance that free function of appearance is not a violation of the basic idea that Shape Shift doesnt grant any additional abilities.

 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge none of the power writeups recommend a Framework. That doesnt change the fact that Frameworks are often the most direct way to model complex characters.

 

Are you suggesting that if a character wants to use a wide array of different powers as needed dynamically, but doesnt intend to use all of them simultaneously, a VPP isnt an excellent way to model that?

 

Are you suggesting that if I want my character to sometimes grow wings and fly and sometimes grow claws to attack with and sometimes run on all fours for extra running, VPP isnt an obvious and rules-correct way to go about having those powers when I want them?

 

Irrelevent. So you deny that in fact there is an actual value to Shape Shift that is not specifically for "deception'?

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Morphicus wants to be able to change shape into a 9 foot tall gorilla. Not actually change into a 9 foot gorilla, you understand, just change his shape to that form. He doesn't get any characteristic bonuses or other powers. He'll get some reach and that's about it. Shapeshift? No, actually, you can't change your height that much. Looking like a gorilla isn't a massively useful power unless you are playing in a game where gorillas are common. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable use of shape shifting, but you can't do it (you can assume the form of a small gorilla, but not a big one)

 

Why not just add a +10 point adder to images : Perfect (doesn't allow a PER roll unless imitating something specific and unique), then buy a few points of growth or stretching?

 

Why, when we come down to it, do we need shape shift as it stands?

I think the argument for divorcing Growth and Shrinking from Shape Shift was that it could easiy be added and that doubling the capability with Shape Shift was fudging which was the right way to do it, sa well as creating confusion over cost/value.

 

I would tend to agree with that - but I still run Shape Shift as in 4th anyway since it worked fine there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

What I will probably never get my head round is that if the character in question is supposed to actually change shape, I'm supposed to guess at conception every sense that might be used to detect the shape and include that in the build, which I find unnecessarily fretful.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think this debate is missing an important aspect of the rules.

 

Is there any effect that Shapeshift can be used for that could not also be accomplished with Images?

 

I know Images is not an absolute effect but it is not alone in that regard. It could be argued that Damage Reduction and Desolidification (when used primarily as an immunity damage) have a similar relationship.

 

If you take time to just think of Shapeshift as Images with something like a Standard Effect (no roll required, whatever that should cost!), No Invisibity and No Range it should be virtually identical in what it can accomplish.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

What I will probably never get my head round is that if the character in question is supposed to actually change shape' date=' I'm supposed to guess at conception every sense that might be used to detect the shape and include that in the build, which I find unnecessarily fretful.[/quote']

Yeah, I agree. I think they should have handled it by exception, as with most other powers, where you must declare 3 Sense Groups by which the Shape Shift is visible (or at least not "Shifted") again, as it was in 4th) and of course you can buy that off with Invisible Power Effects. Although I like the idea of the Senses having discreet values so you could just purchase individual Senses from a Sense Group you are visible to, or purchase an entire Sense Group. This is how I've allowed the influence of 5th in my usage of Shape Shift. It seems to work extremely well, covering both the "reality" of the shift and the deceptive aspect.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think this debate is missing an important aspect of the rules.

 

Is there any effect that Shapeshift can be used for that could not also be accomplished with Images?

 

I know Images is not an absolute effect but it is not alone in that regard. It could be argued that Damage Reduction and Desolidification (when used primarily as an immunity damage) have a similar relationship.

 

If you take time to just think of Shapeshift as Images with something like a Standard Effect (no roll required, whatever that should cost!), No Invisibity and No Range it should be virtually identical in what it can accomplish.

 

HM

I have to run, but I believe the rules on Images vs Touch compared to the rules on SS vs Touch contradict your assertion. That and of course the absolute nature of Shape Shift, though you did take that into account in your comment so I can't really complain about that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think the argument for divorcing Growth and Shrinking from Shape Shift was that it could easiy be added and that doubling the capability with Shape Shift was fudging which was the right way to do it, sa well as creating confusion over cost/value.

 

I would tend to agree with that - but I still run Shape Shift as in 4th anyway since it worked fine there.

 

Trouble is you have to be the botch-master-general to make something 150% taller and heavier without changing any characteristics using growth (what would the limitation on that be?) and shapeshift only allows a 10% variation on its own

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I wonder if shapeshift v touch could make you seem heavier:

 

He seems to weigh about two tons, which is odd as I can lift him with one arm....hmmmm....