Speaking of Shapeshift

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I have to run' date=' but I believe the rules on Images vs Touch compared to the rules on SS vs Touch contradict your assertion. That and of course the absolute nature of Shape Shift, though you did take that into account in your comment so I can't really complain about that.[/quote']

You are correct. To more fully duplicate the Touch group effects of Shapeshift you would probably need to buy something like a limited form of Change Environment (also no range) as well.

 

If I were attempting to make a character whose powers and special effect included the ability to actually change the shape of his body I would use Shapeshift. I only bring up the alternative of Images (and Change Environment) to provide something to compare active and real cost effectiveness to since I am guessing that if enough limitations are applied the Images/CE combo could be built on about the same real points as any particular version of Shapeshift. (I have not done the math on this, I am just going on gut feeling right now.)

 

HM

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland' date=' and in fact, isn't even [i']really[/i] someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

 

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

 

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

 

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.

 

If someone really does look or feel or sound or smell like something/someone else, then the senses aren't beind deceived. There's deception involved, but not of the senses.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

You are correct. To more fully duplicate the Touch group effects of Shapeshift you would probably need to buy something like a limited form of Change Environment (also no range) as well.

 

If I were attempting to make a character whose powers and special effect included the ability to actually change the shape of his body I would use Shapeshift. I only bring up the alternative of Images (and Change Environment) to provide something to compare active and real cost effectiveness to since I am guessing that if enough limitations are applied the Images/CE combo could be built on about the same real points as any particular version of Shapeshift. (I have not done the math on this, I am just going on gut feeling right now.)

 

HM

Could easily be; the two do seem more or less balanced, I'd say anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

If someone really does look or feel or sound or smell like something/someone else' date=' then the senses aren't beind deceived. There's deception involved, but not of the senses.[/quote']I'm sorry, this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived?

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'm sorry' date=' this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived? [/quote']

I don't know that I'd go down that path, but it's not an argument without merit. The point is that from anything your senses could possibly tell (in this example) the thing is a bat. Your mind is the one being deceived, as the thing is in fact a bat to sight and a bat to touch and so on. In other words, you're fooled by its actual physical state.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

If that's how theyve defined the SFX of their powers, then yes.

 

 

 

Read "Activation of Powers", page 103 in 5ER, particularly the part about "...even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character, his powers, or his equipment."

 

 

If the SFX of the character's Powers is "look like a Rhino" then they dont need to buy Shape Shift to "look like a Rhino" when they use their Powers.

I think the key element here is that the definition is made when the Powers are bought, not when they are used. It stands to reason that you can't buy any Power (even in VPP) that says "the SFX is that I change shape into any shape other than my own". It's too powerful an effect. That extra power costs points, and those points should be spent on Shape Shift. If you disagree, please allow me to play a Shape Shifter in your next campaign and I'll have your head spinning.

[Kristopher]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'm sorry' date=' this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived? [/quote']

 

If the thing is in the shape of a bat, and has the color and texture and size and sound and smell of a bat...how are your senses being deceived?

 

The light reflects off the thing, and then into your eyes, and your eyes detect the light that's really there. Your ears detect vibrations in the air that are really there. Your nose detects little chemical bits that are really floating about. Etc.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I don't know that I'd go down that path' date=' but it's not an argument without merit. The point is that from anything your senses could possibly tell (in this example) the thing is a bat. Your mind is the one being deceived, as the thing is in fact a bat to sight and a bat to touch and so on. In other words, you're fooled by its actual physical state.[/quote']No, from anything my sight sense can perceive, the thing seems to be a bat. It may not smell like a bat, or have the mental signature of a bat, etc.

 

If one sense cannot determine the truth, but another can, then the sense that can't determine the truth is being deceived, isn't it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think we might be getting a little too philosophical here without the philosophy measurably advancing our understanding of the problem. There's deception involved, that is probably as far as we need to go. Whether it is brain or eyes probably doesn't matter to the metagame (but might be vital to an individual power description....)

 

If both shapeshift and images deceive the SOMETHING, it seems to me the only difference between the powers (except the PER roll, which could be solved with an adder) is the effect that touch shapeshift has as against touch images. Every other appearance seems to me to work exactly the same way if it it is changed with images or shapeshift, and even touch SS/Images work the same way EXCEPT that touch SS allows you to include inanimate objects that wouldn't normally need or use a PER roll in the deception, like the ropes binding you or the hole you are trying to squeeze through, which you can't do with touch Images. i can't think of any differences for any other senses...can you?

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

No' date=' from anything my [i']sight[/i] sense can perceive, the thing seems to be a bat. It may not smell like a bat, or have the mental signature of a bat, etc.

 

If one sense cannot determine the truth, but another can, then the sense that can't determine the truth is being deceived, isn't it?

Yeah but bearing in mind that the sense not deceived may be one we don't have unless one is super or supernatural (such as mental as you listed), my point is that in fact one could go down this line of reasoning as physical reality is that thing is apparently a bat even in "really" it's not; to this point, our brain is receiving "correct" sensory information, and the reality is something odd, something beyond our typical realm of comprehension and what our senses can possibly inform us of. I wouldn't choose to go down this path for a myriad of reasons, but I am just saying I can see logic in it.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think we might be getting a little too philosophical here without the philosophy measurably advancing our understanding of the problem. There's deception involved, that is probably as far as we need to go. Whether it is brain or eyes probably doesn't matter to the metagame (but might be vital to an individual power description....)

 

If both shapeshift and images deceive the SOMETHING, it seems to me the only difference between the powers (except the PER roll, which could be solved with an adder) is the effect that touch shapeshift has as against touch images. Every other appearance seems to me to work exactly the same way if it it is changed with images or shapeshift, and even touch SS/Images work the same way EXCEPT that touch SS allows you to include inanimate objects that wouldn't normally need or use a PER roll in the deception, like the ropes binding you or the hole you are trying to squeeze through, which you can't do with touch Images. i can't think of any differences for any other senses...can you?

I think the only significant separation for non-touch is that the SS is absolute, which implies (but only implies) that unlike Images the production of "shape" is something "real" somehow, although this difference is rather abstract in a game which relies on reasoning from effect.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think the key element here is that the definition is made when the Powers are bought' date=' not when they are used. It stands to reason that you can't buy any Power (even in VPP) that says "the SFX is that I change shape into any shape other than my own". It's too powerful an effect. That extra power costs points, and those points should be spent on Shape Shift. If you disagree, please allow me to play a Shape Shifter in your next campaign and I'll have your head spinning.[/quote']

I agree with the essentials of what you're saying here, and that's related to what I'm saying re that physical materality of changing shape has a utility all its own, but I would say to KS' point that the various attributes/SFX of the abilities of the VPP may allow for some changes, such as the VPP's flight may make wings appear and the VPP's HKA may make claws shoot out on the hand.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I think the only significant separation for non-touch is that the SS is absolute' date=' which implies (but only implies) that unlike Images the production of "shape" is something "real" somehow, although this difference is rather abstract in a game which relies on reasoning from effect.[/quote']

 

 

I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all, certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.

 

NB the 10 point adder I suggest for images 'perfect' would only operate for personal appearance transformations, so that it worked as shapeshift does now. I'm not suggesting you should be able to make a 'perfect' image at range of, for example, a wall.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all, certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.

 

NB the 10 point adder I suggest for images 'perfect' would only operate for personal appearance transformations, so that it worked as shapeshift does now. I'm not suggesting you should be able to make a 'perfect' image at range of, for example, a wall.

The problem I have is that Shapeshift is "body-affecting" and lumping it in with Images makes both more complex. I think Shapeshift is better left to more of what it was in 4th edition with the adders for taking additional Senses away from the "3 sense groups" ruile which is standard anyway for all powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all' date=' certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.[/quote']

Actually, you need a lot more than that. See the other SS thread: forming into the shape of a ladder to allow teammates to climb you. Forming the shape of a bucket so you can scoop up water, etc.

 

The "less reason to have Shape Shift at all" is only if you interpret it the way Killer Shrike does (which you are certainly entitled to do). However, the rulebook says that SS can actually change your shape and Steve Long has said so as well in either FAQs or on the Questions board, I forget which. He gave the example of the snake form being able to slither through snake-sized holes.

 

If I can SS into a bathtub and someone tries to fill me with water, what happens? Assume that I don't have a VPP to go with the SS, nor Multiform, nor any other specific "bathtub-related" powers listed on my character sheet. Does the water run out all over the floor because I'm not *really* a bathtub? Or does the shape of my body actually hold the water? If the former, then it isn't very effective even at deceiving senses, because the would-be bather will immediately know that I'm not really a bathtub - so much for deceiving the senses. If I can hold the water, then I am doing something more than merely deceiving senses, because the water has no senses.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Actually, you need a lot more than that. See the other SS thread: forming into the shape of a ladder to allow teammates to climb you. Forming the shape of a bucket so you can scoop up water, etc.

 

The "less reason to have Shape Shift at all" is only if you interpret it the way Killer Shrike does (which you are certainly entitled to do). However, the rulebook says that SS can actually change your shape and Steve Long has said so as well in either FAQs or on the Questions board, I forget which. He gave the example of the snake form being able to slither through snake-sized holes.

 

If I can SS into a bathtub and someone tries to fill me with water, what happens? Assume that I don't have a VPP to go with the SS, nor Multiform, nor any other specific "bathtub-related" powers listed on my character sheet. Does the water run out all over the floor because I'm not *really* a bathtub? Or does the shape of my body actually hold the water? If the former, then it isn't very effective even at deceiving senses, because the would-be bather will immediately know that I'm not really a bathtub - so much for deceiving the senses. If I can hold the water, then I am doing something more than merely deceiving senses, because the water has no senses.

Thanks for providing better examples. I can't see how SS can't be seen as an important and real power unto itself without reference to deception or senses.

[Basil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

{snip}

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want.

{snip}

 

Excuse me, but I can't find anything in 5th Ed. to that effect. Indeed, I can only find (via the index) one section called "Activating Powers". It says:

 

"Unless a Power's description says otherwise, activating or 'turning on' a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character,...(for example, the character transforms from a human into a man-beast,...)... and switching slots in a Power Framework are also Zero-Phase Actions."

 

I don't see how switching/activating the Powers in a VPP can be considered "transform[ing] into a man-beast". If the character actually alters his physical being, that is not the same a gaining STR, DEX, a HTH (claws) attack, etc. A different physical configuration should be done via a separate power. That IMO is what the above quote is referring to, it is not saying "you can get a free Alter Self effect by turning on/off a Power or three."

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Excuse me, but I can't find anything in 5th Ed. to that effect. Indeed, I can only find (via the index) one section called "Activating Powers". It says:

 

"Unless a Power's description says otherwise, activating or 'turning on' a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character,...(for example, the character transforms from a human into a man-beast,...)... and switching slots in a Power Framework are also Zero-Phase Actions."

 

I don't see how switching/activating the Powers in a VPP can be considered "transform[ing] into a man-beast". If the character actually alters his physical being, that is not the same a gaining STR, DEX, a HTH (claws) attack, etc. A different physical configuration should be done via a separate power. That IMO is what the above quote is referring to, it is not saying "you can get a free Alter Self effect by turning on/off a Power or three."

I think there's some leeway between just having your hands transform to bestial paws with claws and getting a free "alter self".

 

By itself, in my opinon, powers can alter your appearance greatly but your base self should remain identifiable in all "guises" and the guises can bear no serious SFX of their own although the powers' SFX are very much in play. I would allow VPP powers to change appearance somewhat, but you'd have to - in my opinion - not only look like "yourself" (or at least your heroic self) but also have some theme to the changes, along the lines of some theme required of your VPP. In the absence of such theme, I would declare that then the changes to yourself are solely linked to the power - you might gain claws but the rest of your body doesn't get hairy or such.

 

For example, the actual Animal Man character during the period he went from one animal's body to the next as well as at any period he could transform and be entirely apparent as the animal he transformed into must have either Shape Shift or Multiform, not a VPP of just different powers. However, an Animal Man who has a human face and looks "like" the animals but gains no non-power-specific abiltiies can just have a VPP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Thanks for providing better examples. I can't see how SS can't be seen as an important and real power unto itself without reference to deception or senses.

 

 

Oh I don't know...if you can actually change into a snake, you may have a 6 inch diameter and be able to fit through a pipe, but it also means you're 15 feet long, so you've got stretching from somewhere (albeit in a limited form), which would be a no-no according to the rules.

 

Actually I think stretching is too expensive, or at least that the price structure is wrong, but that's probably best discussed elsewhere.

 

I have two specific problems with shape shifting as it is at the moment:

 

1. The only bit of shape shifting that is actually changing shape is one aspect of touch shapeshift: nothing else allows you to actually do anything that requires a different shape...to me this means that the actual 'being a different shape' bit of shape shifting feels 'tacked on'. If you are going to tack it on I'd rather it was done with an adder or something rather than as an aspect of touch shapeshifting (which should only allow you to vary your texture, temperature, etc).

 

2. (I know this is paradoxical in the light of the above) The ability to change shape costs too much. The power does a whole raft of things, like changing your smell, which is kind of cool, but if I just want to change shape, I want to look, for instance, like a washing machine, I need to cover every sense group and guess at all sorts of unusal sense groups in order to be seen as that shape. Touch, that's an obvious one, and sight. I need to cover hearing, as someone might have sonar, which detects shape. Smell? Well it is possible that someone could detect shape based on smell, even though that is not what it is usually used for, same with taste. Some goit could have built spacial awareness based on taste, and unusual sense groups....I CAN MAGICALLY SENSE THE SHAPE YOU ARE! How do I cover that?

 

My solution (working within the current framework) would be to define a new sense group (the 'shape' sense group), which would then mean that ANY sense that detected shape would perceive that the target has the assumed shape, even if they have other ways of knowing that isn't the true shape, they still perceive it as the shape it IS. Generally you'd want touch and sight shapeshifting, but it wouldn't actually be necessary: without them anyone who sees or touches the shapeshifted charatcer will know that they are not what their shape suggests, not becasue they are not the shape, but becasue it is obvious to the appropriate senses.

 

Should it be a targetting ot non-targetting sense group? Don't know, but probably non-targetting in my opinion. Shapeshifting would then be relatively cheap and easy to build, but if you wanted increased utilty you'd need to pay for it.

 

I'd also break Imitation down: you could buy it as a +5 level to look like a particular but generic object, item or person, or at the +10 level to look like a specific object, item or person. Without the adder, you can certainly change shape but no one is being fooled that you are anything specific - you'd use it when you wanted to, for instance, change your shape to escape bonds or just confuse your scent, or look like you haven't got a face at all.

 

It would still be a limited form of shape shifting: you could do things based on sfx. I'd allow you to turn into a snake to get through a small hole, but you could still only strike at adjacent targets unless you bought stretching. You could become a bucket and carry water. You could wrap yourself around an opponent and maybe get a couple of points bonus to your strength roll for grabs.

 

This may need a bit of polishing, I'm just thinking out loud, but what do you think?

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I don't really agree with that approach. I think it's reasonable/expected that a mentalist or mystic or several other unusual sorts could detect "you are not what you appear to be." In my mind this is simply a normal extension of how Detects and Enhanced Senses work in general, and how Invisibility is similarly dealt with.

 

To me, the Sensory aspect of Shape Shift, while an important aspect of it, must be seen as added in 5th to a power that's been around a long time and generally was accepted (to my knowledge) as working pretty well, and not having a logical issue ASIDE from understandably addressing "Hmmm, how DOES this work against differents senses?" To me, then, the entire fault of 5th revolves around it trying to deal contortions to the power when in fact all that really needed to be done was to indicate that SS has the same "visibility", if you will, as any power, in that 3 Sense Groups must be able to detect it. One simply buys IPE from there, or, alternatively, have a cost structure, as suggested in 5th's version of SS, to buy off individual Senses or such if one doesn't want to be detected by 3 Sense Groups (which typically are going to be Unusual, Mental, and one other one in keeping with how many SSes I've seen work, either Smell or Hearing or Touch, with Touch often being "hmm, he doesn't feel furry exactly, he feels slimey and furry?!?).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I don't really agree with that approach. I think it's reasonable/expected that a mentalist or mystic or several other unusual sorts could detect "you are not what you appear to be." In my mind this is simply a normal extension of how Detects and Enhanced Senses work in general, and how Invisibility is similarly dealt with.

 

I respectfully suggest that you're not thinking through the sense based approach that Fred and Julie have foisted upon us. I'm not suggesting that any sense shouldn't be able to detect that you are 'not what you appear to be' if you haven't spent points for that sense. I'm suggesting that no nesnse should be able to detect that you are not the shape that you shifted into because you are that shape. If you have shapeshift against say sight only but with the 'shape sense' group too, the shape you appear to be visually is the shape you actually are, and looking at the character will not give any clue that they are not what they appear to be to the sight group.

 

If you have sonar, defined (as FRED) as 'detecting physical objects' then you detect a physical object that is the shape that it appears to be according to your vision, and if all the sense does is detect shape then you remain fooled. However, sonar built with discriminatory will be able to detect more than physical shape: say the sonic reflectiveness of the surface, so although it appears to be a washing machine, the sonar waves are not bouncing off it as if it is made of metal, more as if it were made of flesh....

 

Even a normal hearing PER roll might be able to hear the washing machine breathing...

 

I would say that 'shape' is a perfectly valid sense group: a sense group is in effect just a defined sfx. Hearing, for instance, covers the detection of pressure waves travelling through the atmosphere around you, sight covers the detection of electromagnetic radiation within certain energetic bands, but it is all just a label that you are putting to sfx. Obvious labels, I grant you, as they correspond to our experience with our own senses, but if a sense or sense group is just that way becasue that is how you (or Fred) defined it, it is still an sfx (one of the few powers that has built in sfx!), and so defining another sfx as 'shape' shouldn't really be a reach at all.

 

Moreover this takes the shape aspect away from the touch sense group. This has two major advantages to my mind:

 

1. Touch is not the only sense, by any means at all, that detects shape, so why shoud we need the touch sense group to actually change shape?

 

2. If you have to have the touch group then it covers things like temperature and texture: in the above example, you would be able to tell it was not a washing machine by touch even though it would feel like it was the shape of a washing machine as it would feel like flesh in the shape of a washing machine. If you had thick gloves on that prevented you feeling temperature and texture, you may be fooled, but not otherwise.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

Well, in part, I'm saying I don't accept the way in which 5th has employed Senses against Shape Shift.

 

I'm not saying your notion is without merit, but I think that there's a flaw from my perspective in that the idea that some sense see "through" the Shape Shift doesn't mean they see the true shape (necessarily) simply so much as, per SFX, they see that the thing is likely not that which it appears to be. For example, a washing machine that has a mind is definitely not a normal washing machine. That washing machine, when running, might not make quite the right grinding sound, sounding either too much like someone imitating machinery. And supernaturally, it can be seen it has a soul, again setting it apart from a washing machine. None of which violates that in fact its shape is apparently that of a washing machine.

 

As to sonar and such, I'm pretty sure there's some comment in the FAQ or possibly even in the new book, that according to SFX touch-related senses can be judged as such instead of their "actual" sense group.

 

I think taking Shape Shift that is visible to Touch simply means that the shape doesn't feel "right".

 

Of course, as stated, I'm deliberately saying Shape Shift in 5th is wrongly constructed.

 

To assume it is rightly constructed and then to apply your idea with "Shape" as an additional sense, I think that's rather intrigueing and might be useful, especially if you apply the "Shape" sense to the other senses accordingly as you suggest above with Sonar. It certainly does get away from the implied hand-waving required by Shape Shift as it stands. I'm not opposed to your idea, if Shape Shift must stay as it is, and it probably is an improvement, I'd have to think on it. It does certainly make it easier to differentiate "Touch" versus "Shape", making an elegant way to say "this has truly shifted shape". I'd assume Shape would be the default Sense Group. Would Shape be a Sense Group primarily composed of already-existing Senses such as Sonar, Radar, Touch, etc.?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

To me' date=' then, the entire fault of 5th revolves around it trying to deal contortions to the power when in fact all that really needed to be done was to indicate that SS has the same "visibility", if you will, as any power, in that 3 Sense Groups must be able to detect it. One simply buys IPE from there, or, alternatively, have a cost structure, as suggested in 5th's version of SS, to buy off individual Senses or such if one doesn't want to be detected by 3 Sense Groups (which typically are going to be Unusual, Mental, and one other one in keeping with how many SSes I've seen work, either Smell or Hearing or Touch, with Touch often being "hmm, he doesn't feel furry exactly, he feels slimey and furry?!?).[/quote']

 

 

I'm not sure you can do it this way as powers should be not just detectable, but obvious unless they have IPE, so you'd need to buy IPE for all shapeshifts, even if you managed to cover all 5 normal sense groups and a raft of unusual ones too. Think of it for, say an energy blast: if a player said that his energy blast was only detectable by mental senses, magical senses and the touch, would you allow it?

 

In effect, SS turns round the usual position and says that the power is detectable by ALL senses, unless you buy the bit of the power that effects that sense specifically.

 

I agree with your previously stated position that 4th edition wasn't broken, it is a shame they fixed it: I'm just trying to find a way to make Fred SS work for me, and (hopefully) do it in such a way that it helps more generally too. I may not succeed, but all the prat-falls will give thr crowds something to laugh at...

 

To give it it's due SS in Fred is better at doing some things than in 4th ed, for example voice impersonation or changing your smell. You'd have done the former with images, and I suppose you'd have tried to do the latter with images too, only it would only last as long as you were within range and spending END. Fred SS (to my understanding at least) allows you to leave a permanent scent trial of a badger in your wake instead of your own.

 

I really think that shapeshift and invisibilty should be part of the same power: as it stands you'd just stick them in a multipower to get the ability to change your appearance to a sense or not appear to it at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

It does certainly make it easier to differentiate "Touch" versus "Shape"' date=' making an elegant way to say "this has truly shifted shape". I'd assume Shape would be the default Sense Group. Would Shape be a Sense Group primarily composed of already-existing Senses such as Sonar, Radar, Touch, etc.?[/quote']

 

I think that there is some overlap between sense groups already; the 'shape' group would operate against the sfx 'detects shape', whatever the 'base' sense used to detect it. It would probably operate as a notional sense group specifically for SS rather than one I'd necessarily want to introduce as a new enhanced sense group: you wouldn't be building any detects based on the sense group, but any sense group has the potential abilty to detect shape. You could also use it for (if you could think of a reason) darkness, images, invisibility and flash. For example if you flashed the shape group, someone seeing you would be able to say that you were Zornwil, because that is what you look like, but they would be uncertain as they can't actually see what shape you are. The flash would effect (potentially) every sense group, but would not disable any sense except to the extent that that sense detects shape. I honestly can't think why anyone would want to do this.

[zornwil]

Re: Speaking of Shapeshift

 

I'm not sure you can do it this way as powers should be not just detectable' date=' but [b']obvious [/b] unless they have IPE, so you'd need to buy IPE for all shapeshifts, even if you managed to cover all 5 normal sense groups and a raft of unusual ones too. Think of it for, say an energy blast: if a player said that his energy blast was only detectable by mental senses, magical senses and the touch, would you allow it?

 

Good point. And this is probably another reason why the Senses approach to Shapeshift changed so radically. I'd suppose I'd suggest that Shape Shift, by nature of what it is, should have a lower standard, similar to how Mental Powers do.

 

In effect, SS turns round the usual position and says that the power is detectable by ALL senses, unless you buy the bit of the power that effects that sense specifically.

 

I agree with your previously stated position that 4th edition wasn't broken, it is a shame they fixed it: I'm just trying to find a way to make Fred SS work for me, and (hopefully) do it in such a way that it helps more generally too. I may not succeed, but all the prat-falls will give thr crowds something to laugh at...

 

To give it it's due SS in Fred is better at doing some things than in 4th ed, for example voice impersonation or changing your smell. You'd have done the former with images, and I suppose you'd have tried to do the latter with images too, only it would only last as long as you were within range and spending END. Fred SS (to my understanding at least) allows you to leave a permanent scent trial of a badger in your wake instead of your own.

 

I really think that shapeshift and invisibilty should be part of the same power: as it stands you'd just stick them in a multipower to get the ability to change your appearance to a sense or not appear to it at all.

 

It's an interesting notion to put SS and Invisibiity together. In concept I agree but I think mechanically it's tricky. I'm still of the feeling that, even with the changes made in 5th and even accepting those, that Shape Shift should be a discrete power.