Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

The bush twins. Now there's a superhero pair waiting to happen.

 

"Quick, put down that bong! It's the red phone from the whitehouse!"

"Daddy's calling!"

 

I'm not sure what their powers are, I mean with a name like that. [Get's dirty thoughts]

 

Burning Bush (fire powers)

Bushmistress (I'm thinking razor fighting, but maybe she can use hot wax )

Rose Bush (retconned version of the classic Champions character)

Bushmills (whiskey sponsored super, rather appropriate, really)

 

Maybe they'd be like the Crimson Fox twins and only one would adventure at a time, so she'd need a partner. As such, I present to you:

 

Bull and Bush (male sidekick, perhaps the Taurus sample character).

 

Anyway, I've found it hilarious reading this thread and findng out about Angel's healing factor and Juggernaut and She-Hulk getting it on. Remind me why I virtually never buy Marvel titles any more.

 

Back on topic, I think Angel's powers are classic wish fulfillment. On another forum I visit (nothing to do with comics or RPGs), there was a thread about what superpower people would choose and many wanted to be able to fly.

 

I'd also subscribe to the theory that Stan Lee wanted one of the mutants to be privileged and beautiful, yet in spite of a wonderful pair of angel's wings, he'd be villified and treated as a freak.

 

Angel is stronger than one would imagine from his build, but I really couldn't say that his STR was as high as 35. However, I can see the argument for that, but I feel that it's not supported by the source material. I'd go for 25 STR, maybe 30 at a pinch. I've always viewed him as having a high CON, in view of the number of injuries he's overcome.

[Bucky]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

What i'm saying is' date=' you wouldn't would you, if you were creating a new team of superheroes you would have him do something else other than just fly, and give him restrainable flight at that. So Angel Gets my vote as the worst character concept for a playable game character ever [/quote']

 

Ouch. I find I am taking this personally, as I am playing a starting level mystic, and that is his only spell to date. But I do see your point, he does need some other power. Both Angel and my character.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I gave a rationale why I think he ought to have a 35 strength what with huge wings on a human frame and all. YMMV. And he ought to have X-Men Mental Training Mental Defense.

 

I'd just like to point out that the only things I added to X's writeup was some hard numbers and the background skills/perk.

 

That said, he's lookin' expensive. 4-500pts is hardly a weak concept... Heh.

[Superskrull]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Is kitty at least the same age as the teachers in the accademy?

 

For now. who knows how long that'll work out, though. I'm still pleased Colossus came back. Don't care how, since his death was used solely to stop the Liefield... er Legacy Virus. Fie on you, Liefield! I bite my thumb at thee!

[Lupus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I reckon Angel should definitely have good STR and CON. He can lift one or two people pretty effortlessly while flying around... furthermore, he can flap those wings for hours without getting tired. So yeah, I'd give him good STR and CON.

 

As for comics... I stopped reading X-Men shortly after Claremont's return. I'd sufferred through the Alan Davis-credited (but ghostwritten by Claremont) issues (it was there, btw, that Kitty was de-aged to 16 in a throwaway 'but I'm only 16!' line). Claremont's suckage was too much for me, and finally broke me of a 10-year comic collection habit.

 

I actually went cold turkey... I wish I could have kept up with some titles, but the comic shop had a 5-title minimum for standing orders, and I only had three I wanted to keep up with. And I'm not nearly organised enough to go in and buy single issues when they come out.

 

So damn you, Claremont. You were good once, for your day (emphasis on last three words). You gave us many characters we love, and set up a cool universe. But now, you're an insane has-been lunatic.

 

(Btw, in regards to continuity, Claremont openly stated in an interview - I think it was in Wizard - that he hadn't read anythings inbetween him leaving and then returning. He possibly wasn't even aware of the existence of Pete Wisdom, let alone his relationship with Kitty.)

[Lupus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Juggernaut was sucked into the black hole that is in/is Xorn's head.

 

Even though Xorn originally was supposed to have a white dwarf star for a brain. And was revealed to be Magneto. And killed. And subsequently revealed to be Xorn pretending to be Magneto. But still dead.

 

Ow. I think I sprained my brain. Again.

*cries*

[Lupus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

(Btw' date=' in regards to continuity, Claremont openly stated in an interview - I think it was in Wizard - that he hadn't read anythings inbetween him leaving and then returning. He possibly wasn't even aware of the existence of Pete Wisdom, let alone his relationship with Kitty.)[/quote']

Of course, he rarely read issues other than his own stuff anyway. I remember the time he had Wolverine meet Hulk in his solo title (Hulk, as Mr Fixit, had come to Madripoor). Wolverine gets his scent, figures it's the Hulk, despite him being small and grey. Still, he has to confirm his suspicions.

 

Meanwhile, over in Hulk's own title, Wolverine and the Gray Hulk had a fight... about a YEAR before Claremonts Hulk/Wolverine crossover. Yay continuity!

 

(For the record, fight was inconclusive. Opening swipe, Wolvy - who, to his credit, tried to walk away first - gets pissed off and rips the Hulk's chest open... but turns out grey dude has a healing factor he didn't know about before that. So fight continues, gets interrupted before it reaches conclusion.)

[Sketchpad]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Okay ... I went over the write-up and found a possible glitch with the export template ... his STR should be 15 (hence the 5 pts. spent) and he indeed should have MD ... both of which have been fixed in the initial post. This is about where I put the original X-Men in power level ... some of the newer ones (as of GSXM#1) are slightly weaker ... while others are even a bit more powerful (ie: Storm and Wolvie).

 

On the whole Xorn thing ... the current Xorn is the original's brother. On the Claremont thing, I'm not a huge fan of Claremont either ... but I think his current stuff is better than Morrison's crap

[Lightray]

On the whole Xorn thing ... the current Xorn is the original's brother. On the Claremont thing' date=' I'm not a huge fan of Claremont either ... but I think his current stuff is better than Morrison's crap [/quote']

So, Xorn I had the "white dwarf brain" and Xorn II has the "black hole brain". And I now have the leaking-out-my-ears brain...

 

Also: a transcription of some of Claremont's "work" from a few months ago is here -- where the formerly-X-treme X-Men meet Fury. *shudder*

 

To borrow from Bart Simpson, I didn't think it was physically possible, but Claremont both sucks and blows.

[Lupus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

So, Xorn I had the "white dwarf brain" and Xorn II has the "black hole brain". And I now have the leaking-out-my-ears brain...

 

Also: a transcription of some of Claremont's "work" from a few months ago is here -- where the formerly-X-treme X-Men meet Fury. *shudder*

 

To borrow from Bart Simpson, I didn't think it was physically possible, but Claremont both sucks and blows.

I remember that post. It helped make up my mind that, no, I didn't make a bad decision to drop the comics.

 

I think Claremont has a thing about singularities. Need something big to happen? Hey! Let's pull out a singularity.

 

Bleah!

 

(And yes, I realise I've fallen into the mould of the dinos that I despised when I first started reading comics... those who longed for the good-old-days when they were younger. Only difference is they wanted Claremont BACK.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I have to question whether it is a failing of the comics to have a character such as Angel (whose only power is flight - forget additions beginning with metal wings and ending with healing factors) or a failing of a game intended to capture the genre that such a character, who's done fine in the comics, can't succeed in the game.

 

Not to pick on Angel specifically (and kudos to those wjho prepared the very nice writeups fitting Angel into a Champions universe). There are lots of characters who have super powers of some form or another, but do not appear to have an effective attack power (eg. Angel, Hawkman and other flyers; Nightcrawler; Kitty Pryde; any number of stretching characters including Plastic Man, Mr. Fantastic, Skin and the Elongated Man; Aquaman for years had normal human strength, as did the Atom - and shrinking characters in general; Invisible Girl pre-force field attacks and Invisible Kid from LSH) yet who hyave been around for a long time, quite successfully. In Champions, we find ourselves required to "give" such characters an effective attack mode - fast movers get Move Bys and Move Throughs; Stretchers Shrinkers get "velocity/momentum" adders; Teleporters and invisible characters get Martial Arts grafted on.

 

This just comes down to differences between fiction and games. The game often comes down to combat, and to be effective, characters need an effective attack or they feel ineffectual. So we just come up with excuses for more damage, and graft it on based on comic appearances.

 

Maybe this is better classified as a failure in player and GM creativity that a character incapable of inflicting direct damage is viewed as ineffectual. Trebuchet, in describing his "low end of the damage scale" character has noted several things one can do in combat, even if not able to inflict damage directly. One simple example was getting hands over the villain's eyes, forcing him/her to spend time dislodging this person, or fight at reduced DCV (Mr. Fantastic has done this numerous times when in combat beside the Thing). A flying character who can't do damage can still swoop in from behind and trip the villain - now that DCV isn't so hard to hit for the Energy Projecter, is it?

[Lupus]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I have to question whether it is a failing of the comics to have a character such as Angel (whose only power is flight - forget additions beginning with metal wings and ending with healing factors) or a failing of a game intended to capture the genre that such a character, who's done fine in the comics, can't succeed in the game.

 

Not to pick on Angel specifically (and kudos to those wjho prepared the very nice writeups fitting Angel into a Champions universe). There are lots of characters who have super powers of some form or another, but do not appear to have an effective attack power (eg. Angel, Hawkman and other flyers; Nightcrawler; Kitty Pryde; any number of stretching characters including Plastic Man, Mr. Fantastic, Skin and the Elongated Man; Aquaman for years had normal human strength, as did the Atom - and shrinking characters in general; Invisible Girl pre-force field attacks and Invisible Kid from LSH) yet who hyave been around for a long time, quite successfully. In Champions, we find ourselves required to "give" such characters an effective attack mode - fast movers get Move Bys and Move Throughs; Stretchers Shrinkers get "velocity/momentum" adders; Teleporters and invisible characters get Martial Arts grafted on.

 

This just comes down to differences between fiction and games. The game often comes down to combat, and to be effective, characters need an effective attack or they feel ineffectual. So we just come up with excuses for more damage, and graft it on based on comic appearances.

It's also because in a comic book, the writer has control over what the characters do, over the situations that present themselves, etc etc. In a roleplaying game, the task you set aside for the flier with no real attacks gets dealt with instead by the ice-creating guy, leaving the flier with nothing he can really do in the fight.

 

Games and comics are just different. Ensuring that everyone has a viable attack form is just a way of ensuring that everyone will have something to do in a fight. There ARE other things you can do, and a good GM, IMO, will give those other things. What's a super-fight without innocents to save? It's just that the GM ain't a writer, and players don't follow a script.

[Lightray]

Not to pick on Angel specifically (and kudos to those wjho prepared the very nice writeups fitting Angel into a Champions universe). There are lots of characters who have super powers of some form or another' date=' but do not appear to have an effective attack power (eg. Angel, Hawkman and other flyers; Nightcrawler; Kitty Pryde; any number of stretching characters including Plastic Man, Mr. Fantastic, Skin and the Elongated Man; Aquaman for years had normal human strength, as did the Atom - and shrinking characters in general; Invisible Girl pre-force field attacks and Invisible Kid from LSH) yet who hyave been around for a long time, quite successfully. In Champions, we find ourselves required to "give" such characters an effective attack mode - fast movers get Move Bys and Move Throughs; Stretchers Shrinkers get "velocity/momentum" adders; Teleporters and invisible characters get Martial Arts grafted on.[/quote']

Hawkman has always had honkin' big weapons, most usually his mace.

 

Nightcrawler started out with his "I teleport with you quickly and you pass out from the stress" attack.

 

The original Atom - nonshrinking - was explicitly a brawler. Go look at OddHat's excellent Oppenheimer tribute in the New Circle thread.

 

The shrinking Atom (Ray Palmer) has always used his "increase my mass to huge levels and knock you in the chest" attack.

 

Invisible Kid - and other LSH members, like Dream Girl - all had martial arts training. Usually from Karate Kid.

 

Even Kitty has occasionally phased something into someone or phased someone into something as an attack.

 

So lack-of-attacks isn't as widespread in the comics as all that.

 

However, it is showing how you (or most other Champions players) tend to run your games - combat is the prime focus. My players like Hero for the combats, so that's what I focus on, but I've run games where no one had an effective attack power, and no combat occurred. It isn't a requirement that you have a four-color fight if you're running Champions, after all.

 

I actually kind of like it when the players get clever in combat, with some characters setting up attacks by their teammates, or with some characters dealing with other goals while their teammates fight. LSH always had this going on -- no need for Invisible Kid or Dream Girl to whip out the martial-fu, when they've got Superboy and Mon-El with them. Instead, they'd go solve the problem that the LSH was there for.

 

So, I'd see a no-attack power character as a boon to my campaign, not as a hinderance to running combats. I do ask that they have some form of defense (combat luck, DCV, etc.), but I'm fine with someone wanting to play a character who can't attack. Angel, for example, would be a good scout and rescue support character.

[Gary Ciaramella]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Man... this is a cool thread

[knuckles]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Man... this is a cool thread

Thanks man, Although i can only claim bragging rights on the posting of the thread, its really down to all of those who have contributed and voiced their opinions, Kudos to all of you

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

However' date=' it is showing how you (or most other Champions players) tend to run your games - combat is the prime focus. My players like Hero for the combats, so that's what I focus on, but I've run games where no one had an effective attack power, and no combat occurred. It isn't a [i']requirement[/i] that you have a four-color fight if you're running Champions, after all.

 

I was thinking about this recently.

 

In many comics, especially DC ones, a large number of characters can be taken out by one good punch. Landing that punch on them might not be easy, but get your retaliation in first and you can take them out. This is true of the Green Lanterns, the Flashes and actually most members of the current JLA line-up.

 

This led me to thinking about how most Champions characters are built to take a few 'average' hits to take out of the fight. I decided this was because it was no fun to sit around waiting for your PC to wake up, while the Wildcat or Wonder Woman clone gets to duke it out.

 

Related to this is the issue that, as well as having a fairly good defence, just about every Champions character (especially heroes) needs a good offensive power or five, because combat is usually a big part of the game (and it is usually a big part of the comics too). In a story, it doesn't matter if Joe Bloggs is 'just' the flier, because the writer should always give him something to do. In a game, it can be harder to stop other players stepping on another character's toes.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I miss the days when a "one trick pony" option was both viable and preferred. Gimme a flying character with no resistant defenses and no ranged attack and I'll play the bejezus out of him. Gimme a character that feels like it's been mugged from an Image comic and I'll likely get bored. I like challenge, and I like playing personality. Combat is a secondary pleasure for me in games, and frankly, if I can't find something to do with my one-trick pony in a game where point totals are relatively even, I shouldn't be in the game. One of my Angel-clones was nicknamed "Distracto Boy" because he was VERY good at attacking villains against whom he didn't really have a chance. A few dodges and the odd "no damage gets through" attacks were enough to set the bad guys up for better attacks by teammates and the like. He had a decent DEX, a couple of offensive levels, and wings, but man, he rocked. He made it fun to play because I had to work so hard to keep him in the game. I created more opportunities for him than any other player because if I didn't, I had very little to do. The GM was very accomodating and often rewarded my "inventiveness" with extra experience. I remember earning more experience than my teammates in a series of combats where my character did very little actual damage than any of the characters. I just roleplayed the hell out of him and had a good time doin' it.

 

With the right player and the right GM, no character is worthless.

 

"Lame" concepts, IMO, are those that just don't gel for whatever reason. Why does Power Armor Guy need martial arts? Or why does the ninja have eye beams? Pick a tight concept and stick with it, even it's just "a guy with wings". That, to me, is a good concept. The "arachnid" hero, mid-level brick with high DEX, doesn't need a gun. Heck, the flying alien brick doesn't need heat vision. And don't get me started on skills that having nothing to do with a character's background. Pick a concept and stick with it, I say, and don't give in to the "I must be able to do it all" pressure.

 

Now if you want to talk about lame concepts you should hear the story about the anime-inspired wereshark--yes, wereshark--in a Dark Champions game. Hoo boy, that was...different.

[Susano]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Now if you want to talk about lame concepts you should hear the story about the anime-inspired wereshark--yes, wereshark--in a Dark Champions game. Hoo boy, that was...different.

 

Allright. Spill.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Allright. Spill.

 

 

Oh, come on. Do you really need a story to go along with that concept? Just try and remember a person you've gamed with who really--really--didn't "get it" and go from there.

[Blue]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I think as pointed out many times in this thread, evolution is important. I think a "guy with wings" is a great start for a character. Give him tactics related to assisting his teammates (He knows when to pick up character A and drop him into the fray, he knows when to scoop up villain B and drop him from a great height, he knows when to swoop down after the master Obvious Accessible Focus).

 

But after a while, when he realizes his weaknesses, he would compensate. An "Angel with Guns" might be a natural evolution. An "Angel who is learning to cast spells" might work. But after a bunch of games, "A guy with wings" with nothing added to his schtick is just sad.

 

But I can't remember reading an X-men book and thinking he was out of place. So to me that says something for the writers.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I think your underestimating the usefulness of Wings.

 

Presence Attack -

Martial Arts Style -

Flight - Combat and Transport

Gliding - Power Dives for Move By's and Move Thru's

Hand Attacks - Area Effect Radius "Wing Buffet" and "Wing Strike"

Extra Limbs - No Fine Manipulation "Hitting Buttons" and "Grabbing Targets"

Missle Deflection; Usable by Others or Ranged - "Human Shield" and "Protect the innocent"

Force Wall - Backlash "as above"

Flash - "Gust of Wind" and "Feathers in Eye"

 

Geese have been known to break bones with a wing buffet.

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

P.S.: More later

[Lightray]

I miss the days when a "one trick pony" option was both viable and preferred. Gimme a flying character with no resistant defenses and no ranged attack and I'll play the bejezus out of him. Gimme a character that feels like it's been mugged from an Image comic and I'll likely get bored. I like challenge' date=' and I like playing personality. Combat is a secondary pleasure for me in games, and frankly, if I can't find something to do with my one-trick pony in a game where point totals are relatively even, I shouldn't be in the game.[/quote']

That's what I'm talkin' about. I'm bored silly by players whose characters are only there to attack. I love it when someone comes in with a character concept that's not an efficient combat monster, because I know they'll be playing the character, not just playing the dice.

 

I've been trying to ease my players into a less attack!-attack!-attack! mindset. I gave someone a character to play and she was amazed how much fun she had using her Aid and Combat Levels UBO support powers.

 

I don't even think an Angel-type character would be a problem in a Champions game. In a battle, the battle-bot characters are not going to take time out to do the things that Angel would excel at -- evacuate bystanders and casualties, keep an eye out for enemy reinforcements, etc. If Angel's player adds a few tactics schticks (e.g., drop Colossus in a Death-From-Above attack instead of the Fastball Special), he'd become an invaluable team player.

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I remember that post. It helped make up my mind that, no, I didn't make a bad decision to drop the comics.

 

I think Claremont has a thing about singularities. Need something big to happen? Hey! Let's pull out a singularity.

 

Bleah!

 

(And yes, I realise I've fallen into the mould of the dinos that I despised when I first started reading comics... those who longed for the good-old-days when they were younger. Only difference is they wanted Claremont BACK.)

Some of us dinosaurs didn't want Claremont back.

[Lightray]

Some of us dinosaurs didn't want Claremont back.

Heh.

 

Chris Claremont: the Iridium meteor impact of the X-Men world.

 

 

(once he strikes, all that's left is rodents gnawing on the bones of giants that once walked there)

[MitchellS]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

The quintessential Clairmont X-men run was through issue 143. After Byrne left it went quickly down hills. That leads one to wonder how much was Clairmont and how much was Byrne.