Playing Head games

[nexus]

Some exceptionally manipulative and intelligent people are dangerous to even talk too. They can get into someone's head and screw with them with just words, making the doubt themselves, commit irrational acts or even paralyze them completely with doubt. Some examples would be Hannibal Lector, Angelus or Tao.

 

What would be a good way to represent this ability in Champions? I know it should be mostly role playing but sometimes it helps to have a mechnical representation.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Mind Control. You want a target to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. It doesn't matter if they're hammering at you with their super-willpower, or if they're just so treacherous that they can make you react the way they want. It's all still Mind Control. Of course, Lecter would have Telepathy the same way, too.

[SirViss]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Champsguy already covered the first suggestion i was thinking about. The other thought I had was a Mental Transform to give the character the appropriate Psych Limitation.

 

Of course, for both suggestions, there would be quite a few limitations possible, like Incantations, Extra Time and maybe RSR (more than one?).

[nexus]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Champsguy already covered the first suggestion i was thinking about. The other thought I had was a Mental Transform to give the character the appropriate Psych Limitation.

 

Of course, for both suggestions, there would be quite a few limitations possible, like Incantations, Extra Time and maybe RSR (more than one?).

 

What about negative skill levels or a Drain (INT, PRE, EGO) to represent mental trauma and debility?

[OddHat]

Re: Playing Head games

 

I'd stay away from doing this with powers; unless you want something instant and magical, this is what a high PRE and high skill levels in Conversation, Persuasion, Seduction, and other interaction skills are for, maybe with penalty levels as well to allow for really outrageous suggestions.

 

You can do it with a Suppress or Drain to EGO and/or PRE, backed up by conversational Telepathy, Mind Control, and Mental Transforms, but at that point I start to wonder why we have a skills system in the first place.

[Rapier]

Re: Playing Head games

 

At the root, this is one of a couple of different skills:

 

Seduction, Oratory, Persuasion etc.

 

At the end of things, you are talking about a PRE attack. I can understand where people are defaulting to MC because of the "do things you are not inclined to do" but doesn't PRE Attacks already do that?

 

You have a battle hungry slobbering jugger-redneck that likes to stomp barnyard animals. Yon SuperClucker lets out a crow of power (I SAID COCKADOODLEDOO, LITTLE MAN) and yon redneck is seen fleeing into the ozarks. Isn't he opposed to fleeing as a default?

 

PRE all the way, my good man, PRE all the way.

[sinanju]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Hannibal Lector attempts to manipulate Clarice Starling. Let's say he has a PRE of 20, just to get the ball rolling.

 

Hannibal is brilliant and trained as a psychologist. He can peel your mind like an onion, determining your Psychological Limitations in seemingly ordinary conversation, rattling you with ease. A little more conversation and he'll have you thinking up is down and right is wrong, or at least confused about what you thought when the conversation started. Using the Presence rules we see:

 

+2d6 for making his (very high) Interaction roll by half or less (learn your PSYCHs)

+3d6 for working with character's Total PSYCH LIMs

+3d6 for an incredible soliloquy (he knows what to say and how to say it)

+1d6 for very logical and well thought out statements (it sounds so reasonable)

+xd6 for Reputation (Lector is a genius--he knows what he's talking about)

 

That's +10d6 right there. Add that to a PRE 20 (4d6), and you're going to roll an average result of 49 points. Anyone with an EGO of 19 or less is going to be zapped with the EGO+30 result.

 

That seems more than sufficient for toying with the minds of most people. No powers needed.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Hannibal Lector attempts to manipulate Clarice Starling. Let's say he has a PRE of 20, just to get the ball rolling.

 

Hannibal is brilliant and trained as a psychologist. He can peel your mind like an onion, determining your Psychological Limitations in seemingly ordinary conversation, rattling you with ease. A little more conversation and he'll have you thinking up is down and right is wrong, or at least confused about what you thought when the conversation started. Using the Presence rules we see:

 

+2d6 for making his (very high) Interaction roll by half or less (learn your PSYCHs)

+3d6 for working with character's Total PSYCH LIMs

+3d6 for an incredible soliloquy (he knows what to say and how to say it)

+1d6 for very logical and well thought out statements (it sounds so reasonable)

+xd6 for Reputation (Lector is a genius--he knows what he's talking about)

 

That's +10d6 right there. Add that to a PRE 20 (4d6), and you're going to roll an average result of 49 points. Anyone with an EGO of 19 or less is going to be zapped with the EGO+30 result.

 

That seems more than sufficient for toying with the minds of most people. No powers needed.

 

Lessee... That would be 'Ungodly Persuasion, Ungodly SS: Psychology, Ungodly Conversation, Ungodly SS: Logic'. Oh, and a reputation as a genius.

 

Probably Persuasion at 20- or higher (to make it by half), so presumeably the others at similiar levels. Pricey. Possibly more so than the Mind Control.

 

It would help if you simply bumped up his PRE (Lecter can justify this at greater than NCM levels if any human character can - 30, maybe?), and put the skills a bit lower. (and thus the bonuses - usually)

 

Although taking extra time would help...

 

That does it. I remember someone saying they were in a game with someone who played Hannibal as some kind of superhero.... Must... build... clone...

(Only maybe without being quite so evil).

[nexus]

Re: Playing Head games

 

The main reasons I was looking for a Power Construct is that I wanted some precisely defined. Just what you can do with skills and Pre attacks is a little open to interpretation (and someetimes endless debate). IME, allot of players hate to directly controlled by NPCs use of Skills ("She made her Seduction Roll by such and such, you do this" "No I don't, its blatantly stupid!"), but except powers a bit more (if grudgingly).

 

The effects seem more intense and done much more quickly than a mormal Skill would allow (again, its not really defined). IIRC, Tao could have someone questioning themselves to the point they couldn't act at all for awhile with a fairly short conversation. Other example would have a character so rattled and their confidence so shaken they start double guessing themselves and hesistating so much all their actions are affected. Sometimes their pesonalities seem to be affected to such an extent that they have new, temporary Psycholgical Limitation.

[sinanju]

Re: Playing Head games

 

The main reasons I was looking for a Power Construct is that I wanted some precisely defined. Just what you can do with skills and Pre attacks is a little open to interpretation (and someetimes endless debate). IME' date=' allot of players hate to directly controlled by NPCs use of Skills ("She made her Seduction Roll by such and such, you do this" "No I don't, its blatantly stupid!"), but except powers a bit more (if grudgingly). [/quote']

 

Yeah, that seems to be the best reason to go with a powr construct. The character is SO good at some skill that it moves out of the realm of die rolling (and the possibly, however rare, of failure) and into the certainty of success barring some extraordinary defense. Like buying Clinging as a climbing super-skill; effectively the character NEVER falls, NEVER slips. If Hannibal Lector can tie your psyche in knots with a few well placed verbal barbs, that probably qualifies too.

 

In which case, I'd give Hannibal an EGO ATTACK (verbal, takes time) as he dissects your psyche like a frog, uncovers your "hot buttons" and gleefully pushes them to rattle you, and then a TRANFORM ATTACK (probably vs EGO or BOECV) to represent the lasting effects of his psychic surgery (short-term effects can still be represented by a normal PRE attack). You leave his presence thoroughly rattled and can't stop thinking about what he said and whether it's true....

[Kristopher]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Some exceptionally manipulative and intelligent people are dangerous to even talk too. They can get into someone's head and screw with them with just words, making the doubt themselves, commit irrational acts or even paralyze them completely with doubt. Some examples would be Hannibal Lector, Angelus or Tao.

 

What would be a good way to represent this ability in Champions? I know it should be mostly role playing but sometimes it helps to have a mechnical representation.

 

One of the fictional abilities without a real life counterpart.

[nexus]

Re: Playing Head games

 

One of the fictional abilities without a real life counterpart.

 

Pardon?

[David Blue]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Nexus: "Some exceptionally manipulative and intelligent people are dangerous to even talk too. They can get into someone's head and screw with them with just words, making the doubt themselves, commit irrational acts or even paralyze them completely with doubt. Some examples would be Hannibal Lector, Angelus or Tao."

 

Tao I would build with mind control, since I saw him do big things that were definitely not just skill.

 

Angelus I'll ignore, because I'm not well-informed enough to say anything.

 

Let's look at Hannibal Lecter. By default, I agree with OddHat: you build this monster with skills and characteristics, or what are skills and characteristics for?

 

The argument against that, I think, is that Hannibal Lecter seems to be one of those tactical genius types who are able to rely on his opponents making certain mistakes, and the easiest way to make that work solidly is to give the character invisible mind control. He knows what people are going to do wrong (even in his prison break-out), because (out of game) he predetermine those errors.

 

On the other hand -

 

Hannibal Lecter likes Clarice Starling. But giving him her as an opponent (in the third book) was just like giving him a toy to play with. (Which is one of the reasons why I thought the third book was such a huge disappointment.) But there's someone who scares Hannibal Lecter, for good reason: Will Graham. Even though Will Graham is the one who suffers from fear (frequent, strong I think), which is the worst psychological limitation to have against Hannibal Lecter, there's a balance of power here, and Hannibal Lecter was the one that would up behind bars. He knows it too.

 

"Scary" isn't "stronger", or practically all of Superman's foes would be defined as more powerful than him.

 

If Will Graham is your enemy, or would be if he knew what you were up to, conversation with him is extremely dangerous. Just being in the same room can end your career. If Hannibal Lecter could have told Will Graham "move along, nothing to see here" he would have. And there was nothing to see! What bonus is that!? But - no dice.

 

So: what do you think Will Graham's got?

 

If after building that, your mind-controlling Hannibal Lecter can walk all over him, in conversation or in general, I think you need to rebuild one or both of these characters.

[Constantine]

Re: Playing Head games

 

I think that it really depends on the genre you are playing as to how you would build this kind of power. Obviously, the genre Nexus is playing in requires a power construct, so why don't we provide one. I definitely think the power you want, for the short term mind changes is mind control, with a whole bunch of limitations. Incantations (not really an incantation, but you are talking to them for the entire length of the power) and extra time at least. Then, depending on the exact process you are looking for, maybe requires a skill roll (either Psychology or persuasion, perhaps), concentration (you really have to pay attention to your target). I'm sure there are others I'm overlooking, I don't have a book here at work. I might throw in a small cumulative mental transformation linked to the mind control, so that everytime you use the short term mind control on someone, they begin to come around in the long-term to the way of thinking that you would like.

[Blue]

Re: Playing Head games

 

I would say a low-level telepathy, to detect weaknesses in character ("Empathy"), followed by a mind control only for feeding those weaknesses.

[David Blue]

Re: Playing Head games

 

The funny thing about "empathy" is that (with the exception of me babbling about Will Graham) we are talking about characters that are extremely un-empathic. I guess that's part of the scare: they get all of the benefits with none of the implicit restraints.

 

Anyway, I agree with Constantine: our role is to be useful, so if a power package is what's most useful (for characters like Tao, for some dragons in conversation and so on), let's get to it.

 

TELEPATHY 6D6, +1/2 invisible power effects, +1/4 half END cost, -1/4 concentration halves defensive combat value, -11/4 extra time takes a turn, -1/2 requires a skill roll: conversation, 2 END, Cost 17 Points

 

I don't think it's worth bothering with an extra limitation: only to work on weaknesses. If the character is cruel and only wants to do that, that's all they'll do of course, but if a good character had a similar power they could use it for therapy. But you may want to add the limitation anyway, just to reflect how mean these characters are.

 

This writeup assumes you can "normally" mess people up that badly with just a moderate amount of telepathy. (Provided the target has no defenses and juicy psychological limitations - and how many player characters lack them?) I do assume that, so this writeup would work for me. If you think telepathy can't normally do that, fair enough, do this:

 

TELEPATHY 6D6, +1/2 invisible power effects, +1/4 half END cost, -1/4 concentration halves defensive combat value, -11/4 extra time takes a turn, -1/2 requires a skill roll: conversation, 2 END, Cost 17 Points

MIND CONTROL 6D6, +1/2 invisible power effects, +1/4 half END cost, -1/4 concentration halves defensive combat value, -11/4 extra time takes a turn, 1/2 requires a skill roll: persuasion,-1/2 linked to telepathy, 2 END, Cost 15 Points

[TaxiMan]

Re: Playing Head games

 

For a power, I'd go with Transform BOECV, RSR, Limited Power (must speak, not vs. earplugs, only works with personal knowledge of victim or in-depth dialog). The Transform would add Psych Lims to characters. The power needs the advantage "expanded class of effects" if the Psych Lim can be changed, which it should.

 

Use the partial Transform rules where the victim realizes what's happening even if not completely affected. It's cumulative, so repeat exposures are really dangerous. Recovery from partial effects is good R&R with family & friends. Recovery from a successful Transform is psychological counselling.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Another option: build it as a cumulative construct, representing the time needed to work on the target. This also makes it viable to include NND, since normal Mental Defense really shouldn't stop "Mega Socials."

[Victim]

Re: Playing Head games

 

Another option: build it as a cumulative construct' date=' representing the time needed to work on the target. This also makes it viable to include NND, since normal Mental Defense really shouldn't stop "Mega Socials."[/quote']

 

Then what is the defense against mega socials? Since MD can represent willpower, I don't see why it shouldn't normally help against super persuasive people.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Playing Head games

 

*Some* mental defense represents extraordinary willpower; much, probably most, however, represent psionic shields or such.

 

If I were to pick defenses, I'd say something along the lines of "Opposed Conversation/Ego Roll, with willpower-based Mental Defense added." Alternatively, maybe "Ego roll based on appropriate Psych Limit, with revered severity modifier."