Size Matters

[Dust Raven]

How much does size matter?

 

Basically, a player wants to play a dragon in my Champions campaign. I'm okay with this, though she'll have to play a really young one (200+150). However, she wants the dragon to be able to assume human shape, and intends to use that shape the most often, only reverting to the dragon shape when outside in combat, or when resting.

 

The problem I'm working around right now is how to build it. My first impression is to build the character as a dragon, full size, with the Physical Limitation to represent the penalty to DCV and PER rolls against, and then use Shrinking and Shapeshift to assume a human size and shape. The problem with this is the somewhat clunky way of going about it, and I'm not sure if it's the best way. I'm almost completely against using Multiform, because none of the character's abilities will change (only a Distinctive Feature, which I'd list as easily concealable, and the claws and wings, which I'll list as OIHID). Granted, if a Multiform alternative sounds reasonable and stays in concept I'd use it, but I'm looking for some other ways to simulate the shape/size changing effect.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Size Matters

 

If I understand your comments, the dragon has basically the same abilities in either form, except for claws and wings (assumed HKA and Flight) available only in Dragon form.

 

What about just applying the size DCV, PER and mass, penalties as a Side Effect to those two powers (or three powers - some knockback resistance would seem reasonable at massively increased size)? That would remove OIHID. Becoming a dragon is just SFX for those powers anyway.

 

DF applies only when those powers are availbale, so easily concealable as youve already indicated.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Size Matters

 

The problem with building big, then adding DCV is you potentially get a human size character who just can't be hit.

 

Let us imagine that the dragon is 32 metres long, has a DEX of 20. OCV/DCV is 7. You should (but of course don't have to) add some sort of disadvantage to simulate how easy it is to hit a large target. When you apply 4 levels of shrinking to get to human size, your DCV hits 15!

Complete aside: growth makes you easier to hit with both HTH and ranged attacks. I'm pretty sure it used to increase OCV (or possibly DCV) for HtH attacks and reduce DCV for ranged attacks. This made a great deal of sense to me: firing a gun at a large target, easy to hit. Fighting a large target HtH is actually much more difficult as reach and size makes a big difference (not accurately reflected by game mechanics IMO). I really believe that it is NOT easier to hit a target twice your size in HtH.

If you don't want to use superform, the only way to do it is shrinking and shapeshift (which you could put as slots in a multipower with the claws and wings instead of making them OIHID: it would probably be cheaper), or build as a human and have claws, wings, shapeshift and growth OIHID, which would also be cheaper than the original suggestion as more powers are getting the limitation. The strength of the character is human form could be a determinant: if it is the same as in dragon form, use the shrinking option - which doesn't effect strength.

 

Bottom line, if you want to change size and shape you need size change and shape shift powers...or you need to go back to the multiform idea.

[Bengal]

Re: Size Matters

 

This actually sound slike a Shapeshift with linked Growth, HKA and Flight/Extra Limbs. If you build it this way, you no longer need to worry about the DCV levels, KB resistance, distinctive features, and all that ancillary crap. Remember that either form can be the "base", power-wise; the player then can choose to be in whichever form she wishes. Best of all, one character sheet, you save a tree.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Size Matters

 

This actually sound slike a Shapeshift with linked Growth' date=' HKA and Flight/Extra Limbs. If you build it this way, you no longer need to worry about the DCV levels, KB resistance, distinctive features, and all that ancillary crap. Remember that either form can be the "base", power-wise; the player then can choose to be in whichever form she wishes. Best of all, one character sheet, you save a tree.[/quote']

I'm a bit iffy on this idea. It would make things a bit simple, and while simple is good, the character's natural form is that of a full size dragon. The activation of Growth would really be the deactivation of the character's ability to change shape, and I'm not sure I like that contruct.

[Agent X]

Re: Size Matters

 

Multipower

Shape Change and Shrinking

Hand Killing Attack and Flight

[rjcurrie]

Re: Size Matters

 

My question would be if you need the shapeshift -- I thought that body changes that took place as part of a power activation didn't require anything like that. That is, unless the dragon can change into a variety of human forms.

[Arthur Hansen]

Re: Size Matters

 

My question would be if you need the shapeshift -- I thought that body changes that took place as part of a power activation didn't require anything like that. That is' date=' unless the dragon can change into a variety of human forms.[/quote']

 

Just having the different size body is going to entail some changes. It really does need to be done as a shape-shift/multiform with different stats in either form (the dragon form should be stronger, IMO.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Size Matters

 

I'm a bit iffy on this idea. It would make things a bit simple' date=' and while simple is good, the character's natural form is that of a full size dragon. The activation of Growth would really be the deactivation of the character's ability to change shape, and I'm not sure I like that contruct.[/quote']

The real question should then be: What does the Dragon lose when taking the form of a 'human'? Does he lose part of his STR? Defenses? Etc...

 

Conversly, if while in 'human' guise the character finds a suit of magic armor and decides to wear it can he still change back to his true Dragon form? Does he still get benefit of the armor?

 

asuming that the answers to the first group are 'yes' and the second group are 'no' this makes a strong case for multiform (sorry, i know that's a dirty word!).

 

HM

[tancred]

Re: Size Matters

 

If you're dead set against using a Multiform (which is admittedly more complex), then you could have the character take the appropriate Size Disadvantage (as shown in the Bestiary), then reduce the value of the Disadvantage to reflect that it does not affect the character all the time (i.e., not in human form).

 

The Size Disadvantage would give the Dragon form the reduced DCV, increased PER mods, and so forth. When the character changes form (now without having to use a power), the Disadvantage goes away, and the character has normal abilities for a human.

 

You could even handle Characteristics similarly; give the character's STR (for example) a Limitation of Only in Dragon Form (-1/2). (The value would vary depending on how often the character would be in dragon form, which you will have to judge.)

 

That's my 2 cents.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Size Matters

 

The real question should then be: What does the Dragon lose when taking the form of a 'human'? Does he lose part of his STR? Defenses? Etc...

 

Conversly, if while in 'human' guise the character finds a suit of magic armor and decides to wear it can he still change back to his true Dragon form? Does he still get benefit of the armor?

 

asuming that the answers to the first group are 'yes' and the second group are 'no' this makes a strong case for multiform (sorry, i know that's a dirty word!).

 

HM

From what I understand, the only differences between the Dragon and Human form is that the Dragon form will have wings, claws and a tail, and the human form will have Martial Arts (though technically, so will the dragon form, but we're still working on wether or not the maneuvers would translate. I know they will mechanically, but we're thinking about realistically).

 

Speaking of Multiform, I worked up something using that and and it kinda worked. Unfortunately, I'm trying to avoid characters that have more than one character sheet (although it shouldn't be too bad if there are few changes between them).

[Bengal]

Re: Size Matters

 

Speaking of Multiform' date=' I worked up something using that and and it kinda worked. Unfortunately, I'm trying to avoid characters that have more than one character sheet (although it shouldn't be too bad if there are few changes between them).[/quote']

 

 

Good idea. Once you open that door, you'll discover a barnful of hoary chestnuts. I decided to buy Multiform for my tiny science hero, and he ended up with 10 character sheets! One for his lab, one for his vehicle, and eight for his different groupings of gadgets. Heck of a chore to lug to the gaming table, let alome write up properly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Size Matters

 

Good idea. Once you open that door' date=' you'll discover a barnful of hoary chestnuts. I decided to buy Multiform for my tiny science hero, and he ended up with 10 character sheets! One for his lab, one for his vehicle, and eight for his different groupings of gadgets. Heck of a chore to lug to the gaming table, let alome write up properly.[/quote']

Not only that, but how about spending experience points? That's another can of multiforming worms I want to avoid.

 

Good news on this front, however. The player, somewhat new to the system, has offered to incorperate a curse into the concept. The character cannot change back from human form. She'll be stuck until she feels she's comfortable enough with the character to buy the ability to transform back, whichever way we decide upon doing it. Still need to figure that out eventually, but we'll get to know the character better before then.

[kloster]

Re: Size Matters

 

How much does size matter?

 

Basically, a player wants to play a dragon in my Champions campaign. I'm okay with this, though she'll have to play a really young one (200+150). However, she wants the dragon to be able to assume human shape, and intends to use that shape the most often, only reverting to the dragon shape when outside in combat, or when resting.

 

The problem I'm working around right now is how to build it. My first impression is to build the character as a dragon, full size, with the Physical Limitation to represent the penalty to DCV and PER rolls against, and then use Shrinking and Shapeshift to assume a human size and shape. The problem with this is the somewhat clunky way of going about it, and I'm not sure if it's the best way. I'm almost completely against using Multiform, because none of the character's abilities will change (only a Distinctive Feature, which I'd list as easily concealable, and the claws and wings, which I'll list as OIHID). Granted, if a Multiform alternative sounds reasonable and stays in concept I'd use it, but I'm looking for some other ways to simulate the shape/size changing effect.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

That's exactly my character, and it's done with a Multiform: The dragon (albeit a small one) is the true form, and the human form is a second one.

 

Kloster

[Dust Raven]

Re: Size Matters

 

That's exactly my character, and it's done with a Multiform: The dragon (albeit a small one) is the true form, and the human form is a second one.

 

Kloster

Does that work well for you? Are all the skills and mental Characteristics and such identical between the two form?

[kloster]

Re: Size Matters

 

Does that work well for you? Are all the skills and mental Characteristics and such identical between the two form?

 

Hello,

 

It works well. Skills are identical, mental stats are identical (but thiis is not mandatory), powers are different, physical stats are different, and what decided me to go through the multiform way is : disadvantages are differents.

I have put the multiform in a Draconic Powers multipower.

 

Both forms have the same number of points (200 + 150). The points in the human form not used on physical stats and draconic powers are used on Magical powers and equipment.

 

Hopes this can help.

 

Kloster

[Heroman]

Re: Size Matters

 

Actually, it is a bit surprising that such a larger form does not have a few CHARs which are bigger than the human form, namely STR, CON, and BODY. This is either a pretty weak dragon or a scarey strong human

 

If there are skills that differ between forms, a character sheet can look as ugly with all the Lims, Linked, etc to exclude powers between forms as it would using 2 sheets, though using lists in HD can help keep it a bit clear. When you start linking a ton of items for 1 shape vs another, it really is time to look at MF. If they are close and you want to use a IOHID (-1/4), I would probably also use a Not IHID also as a -1/4 if it is relatively simple to shift. Better, just call it Limitation: Only In Human Form (-1/4) and Limitation: Only In Dragon Form (-1/4). I would not go much higher than -1/4, but that really depends on how easy it is to shift.

For some things (like maybe OCV levels which cannot take a limitation), it will be just a rational understanfing that such an ability cannot be used in 1 form or another (ie: human form has +3 OCV with a long sword).

 

One thing to also remember about Shape Shift; it can be pretty darn expensive if it is a convincing fascimily.

 

If you use HD, I found the best way to represent 'carry over' skills (things common to both forms) is to plug them into a list. When you add common stuff, update the list on the main form and Copy/Paste it into the human. Easy.

 

Overall, I would tend to go MF, though.

Point spending is pretty trivial for MF. If you expect both forms to have the same effective experience value, simply tell the player that. The main form is the one which gets all the XP. Every point in the main form will give 5 in the secondary, so to keep pace, they should only use 1 out of 5 points of XP to raise the human form for equal point cost chars. The nice thing is that if over time the human form is effectively weaker than the dragon, MF is perfectly suited to represent that by simply not putting more points into the human form.

 

MF also works well if there are different Disads between characters (succ, vun, psych, etc).

 

As far as complexity of character sheets in game...a non issue. If the person will spend long stints in 1 form, it is moving 1 sheet to the top. My Fantasy character has 4 MF shapes in total, and it really is that simple. Character update is a very small part of the sheet

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Size Matters

 

Actually' date=' it is a bit surprising that such a larger form does not have a few CHARs which are bigger than the human form, namely STR, CON, and BODY. This is either a pretty weak dragon or a scarey strong human [/quote']

 

Contrary to the thread title, it seems that for THIS dragon, Size Doesn't Matter

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Size Matters

 

My question would be if you need the shapeshift -- I thought that body changes that took place as part of a power activation didn't require anything like that. That is' date=' unless the dragon can change into a variety of human forms.[/quote']

 

That's the way that I would interpret it, as well. Since the Distinctive Features Limitation is Easily Concealable already, I would say that that subsumes the change in appearance in going from one shape to the other, leaving it as just SFX.

 

I'm going to suggest attacking this from the opposite direction: build the human form, and give it several levels of Growth to simulate changing into the dragon form. Then you have a simple changing mechanic which gives you the penalties to DCV, extra mass etc. appropriate to the dragon, without having to deal with them as a human. You could Link the Flight and HKA (wings and claws) to Growth.

 

Other possible appropriate additions to Growth: 0 END and Persistant if you want the dragon to be able to remain in its true form indefinitely and effortlessly; Inherent if you don't want the form change ability to be "taken away" by any Power; Only At Full Power (-1/4 Lim IIRC) if the dragon can only shift to its full size without any in between levels.

 

How's that?

[Lord Liaden]

Or...

 

Here's an even simpler approach, which follows from your take on Distinctive Features: build the dragon form with the appropriate standard Size/Weight Limitation from the Bestiary (and 5ER), but reduce the Frequency with which it impairs the character from Frequently to Infrequently, representing the character's ability to change to human form at will. Everything else becomes SFX, except for the wings and claws which you can keep as OIHID.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Size Matters

 

Actually' date=' it is a bit surprising that such a larger form does not have a few CHARs which are bigger than the human form, namely STR, CON, and BODY. This is either a pretty weak dragon or a scarey strong human [/quote']

It's a magic thing. I'm basically moddling the shapechange after the Dragons from Rifts. And yes, it results in a scary strong human. That's the point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Size Matters

 

It's a magic thing. I'm basically moddling the shapechange after the Dragons from Rifts. And yes' date=' it results in a scary strong human. That's the point. [/quote']

 

I'd just do it with shrinking. Limit the flight and HKA to 'not when shrunk', limit the shrinking to 'big or little: nothing in the middle', and handle the change of form either as sfx or as a shapeshift, depending on what it is going to be used for.

 

You are the same strength big and small, but the small form will be far harder to hit. How big is this dragon, anyway? You could be 32m long and get down to human size with four levels of shrinking...