FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

[tesuji]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

 

This is a cost of a "you can do anything" system.

Obviously, and for some, the cost wont be worth the gains. For others, it will.

Try telling your d20 GM "I want to be able to improve my accuracy by decreasing my [damage or armor class]. The core books allow the reverse with a couple of feats, but I need some other book to enhance accuracy (M&M has the damage tradeoff; I've never seen the AC tradeoff but it's likely out there somewhere).

 

Well first off it could be as simple as a charge from the core rules.

 

Secondly, iirc in enemies and allies (DND wotc 3.0) there was some feat called iirc all out attack which did the Ac for to hit, again emphasis IIRC. haven't used that book in years.

 

Finally, of course, this is an easy enough feat to whip up given the other numerous examples. DnD encourages flexibility like this, without really requiring a lot of up front math. i expect many or even most Gms not of the would take just a few seconds to go "like [combat] expertise, just reverse it." and move on.

 

This of course assumes the GM is not deliberately limiting his campaign to "only things found in so-n-so".

 

On the same topic, try building a character in D&D if you are allowed to use any feat, class or prestige class published by any of a dozen or so d20 game companies. Forgetting the expense, try to find that Feat you're looking for.

I vaguely recall a feat finder kind of query thing on the wotc game site, free for the using.

This is an issue for newbies in any game, although I'll agree that the issue can be more pronounced in Hero, again because you can do anything. The GM needs to review Hero characters in detail in any case, and I know I do a lot of "assist the player" when I review characters.

 

Another option is to get the old-timers involved. This guy will be a teammate, so help the player get a good one put together. Using experienced players to help train the newbies takes a lot of weight off the GM's shoulders.

 

In either case, there is a lot of area between "Here's the book, Newbie, go to it" and "Here's your character sheet, Newbie. So, you guys are all sitting in the bar when..." Sitting down with the polayer and asking "OK, what kind of a character do you want to play", then guiding the player through some choices works very well. We had a new player take the USPD, go through for some sample powers of interest to him, and designed the rest of the character from there.

 

Oh, and be a bit more liberal when our Newbie has a few games under his belt and wants to redesign his character now that he knows the rules better.

 

All good advice. perhaps a section with info similar to this would actually be a good thing to have in the rulebook.

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Sorry Zornwil...didn't mean to throw you into it...

Heh, no matter, I was just kidding around with my post. Zorn is my last name, btw.

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I've been fence-sitting on the idea. I think it could work, especially if Hero simply licenses out the right to use its rules to companies who want to design game worlds, not rules sets. But I don't think a lot of people want to pay for the rules every time they buy a game.

 

Perhaps the concept would work better if "Designed Using Hero System" ("DUHS" - maybe look for a better acronym? ) games were published as a separate book, but sold both alone and bundled with Sidekick (another $10, once, to get the book - maybe Hero could let DUHS companies by Sidekick at a discount for use only when packaged with a DUHS game).

 

There's even a possibility (remote today, maybe increasing if the DUHS line takes off) that d20 companies would publish products under both platforms in the hopes of increasing sales.

I think if licensees could "resell" Sidekick, perhaps it could be packaged within the books they sell in a sort of further-abbreviated form that gives the basics, lists powers, and is just enough to get started, perhaps.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think if licensees could "resell" Sidekick' date=' perhaps it could be packaged within the books they sell in a sort of further-abbreviated form that gives the basics, lists powers, and is just enough to get started, perhaps.[/quote']

Sounds familiar...wait... that's because it's basically what I've been advocating all along! I didn't say it in so few words though (I have a habit of rambling, a little bit, sometimes - sorry). Sidekick (customized to the setting) + the setting = New Game that doesn't require the basic book, but says, "hey, there's more where this came from"... and points you to the 5th ed. book and whatever else is appropriate. I would add that the first such book should be sold by Hero Games directly, just so the licensees have an example to work from. I wonder if they actually have an opinion on this, or if we're just left here to our own devices...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Obviously' date=' and for some, the cost wont be worth the gains. For others, it will.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. If we all wanted the same thing, we'd only need one game system.

 

I vaguely recall a feat finder kind of query thing on the wotc game site' date=' free for the using.[/quote']

 

Could be. I suspect it does not coiver third party licensees, and that I need to remember the feat's name in order to locate it.

 

All good advice. perhaps a section with info similar to this would actually be a good thing to have in the rulebook.

 

For any game! It should be in "The Ultimate GM"!

[roch]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

FWIW, I have submitted a review of 5ER to rpg.net. (I gave it a 5/5.) Goodness knows how long it will take for the review to arrive at the browser end of the system.... Anyway, it's my first review of anything, so I probably pushed the wrong button and accidentally sacked several thousand civil servants. Oh well.

 

Much of the criticism I have seen in the very limited time I have been exposed to HERO seems to involve completely mismatched expectations - namely, that many people expect HERO to be a game and not (as it says on the front and back in pretty big letters) a toolkit.

 

Thus, said people expect a) a setting most things on a pick-list c) a setting d) spell listings for immediate consumption e) a setting f) less abstraction and more immediate application.

 

I have no idea whether my review will make anything any clearer, but I was really, really trying to review 5ER as the product it says it is on the back. (And the front.)

 

I think it's very good at what it sets out to do. Of course character creation of a 500 point werewolf in HERO can take longer than a 1st level Fighter in D&D - one's created using a toolkit, one using a turnkey packaged system!

 

Hmm, not really sure where I was going with that one.

 

I'll just have some more beer.

 

Beer good.

 

[shambles away]

 

(_8(0)

[John Desmarais]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

If you don't have ... ... a strong grasp of arithmetic, Hero character gen can be a real chore.

 

[rant]

Pet peeve. I really hate statements like this - particularly in a demographic (gamers) that generally consider themselves of above average intelligence.

 

At what point in our society's history did simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division come to require a strong grasp of arithmetic?

The math involved in Hero character creation is stuff I learned when I was 9 - my 10-year old son has already learned it.

 

There is a difference between a lot of arithmetic and hard arithmetic. Hero character creation (well, really, mostly Champions character creation) can involve a lot of arithmetic - but it does not involve difficult arithmetic.

 

Everytime a non-Hero player hear's someone complain about the "high-level" math involved in character creation that gamer promptly categorizes Hero has "one of those games they won't ven try" - and that's real shame.

[/rant]

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think it would definitely help sales of HERO to have third-party licensed products out there. I don't think they should include the system rules in addition, though. Just the setting info and all the specific constructs it requires: prominant NPCs, specific items, spells, monsters, etc. Buy one of these, plus FREd/5er/Sidekick and you're ready to play!

 

It would also be nice to have third party support for existing settings. How about some specific adventure modules/books for the Turakian Age, for example, or even some "settingless" adventures.

[caris]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

At what point in our society's history did simple addition' date=' subtraction, multiplication, and division come to require a strong grasp of arithmetic?[/quote']

 

Uh, John? What type of arithmetic is more difficult than dividing and multiplying fractions? No one is claiming that this is mathematics more advanced the arithmetic like say geometry, algebra, trigonometry or calculus. Even so there is sort of an upper limit to arithmetic, and while Hero doesn't quite reach it (all the fractions can be converted into decimals of no more than two places, and you pretty much avoid most of the repeating decimals), it is certainly at the upper ends of arithmetic.

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think experimentation and attempts to reach a wider, "less sophisticated" audience are fine, but I do think that HERO can't stray too far from the audience it has catered to, those who want extreme flexibility and a "toolkit" approach and a universal system. HERO fills a niche, one arguably only also addressed by GURPS at all satisfactorily. HERO tried to broaden with Fuzion and look at the rancor that caused. I don't mean they shouldn't try more, just that there really is a market for what it does and HERO ought not abandon it or someone else will fill it. So they have to proceed carefully. But I like the idea of genre stuff with "enough" rules in it.

[Vorsch]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Can i tell a story, about a young man who went into a game store.

 

It was dark and cold, yet the man hurried on avoiding the late night traffic, concious of the time. Entering the store he shuffled downstairs amid the disapproving gazes of the comic fans, he was entering darker teritories.

 

Downstairs the room was filled with bookshelves of forbidden matter, He reached for the top shelf, looking around nervousily, but no one had seen him clutch the book he now held.

 

Opening it the pictures lit up his mind with scenes he had never imagined, turning to the back a fresh clean character page presented itself, instantly rules transparent. The whole thing screamed playability and depth.

 

Never looking back, he bought that book, and was proud.

 

White wolf : Vampire The Masquerade 1995

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Can i tell a story, about a young man who went into a game store.

 

It was dark and cold, yet the man hurried on avoiding the late night traffic, concious of the time. Entering the store he shuffled downstairs amid the disapproving gazes of the comic fans, he was entering darker teritories.

 

Downstairs the room was filled with bookshelves of forbidden matter, He reached for the top shelf, looking around nervousily, but no one had seen him clutch the book he now held.

 

Opening it the pictures lit up his mind with scenes he had never imagined, turning to the back a fresh clean character page presented itself, instantly rules transparent. The whole thing screamed playability and depth.

 

Never looking back, he bought that book, and was proud.

 

White wolf : Vampire The Masquerade 1995

You not only look like my "long lost" (lost touch with) friend, John, you even have the same taste!

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

You not only look like my "long lost" (lost touch with) friend' date=' John, you even have the same taste![/quote'] They taste the same??

[Harakani]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Steve's "Teach Yourself The Hero System" sounds like a great idea, and like it covers pretty much everything I thought of. I'm prepared to trust Steve on this one and see what he does... but hey... my ramblings are below. Feel free to skip 'em.

 

Firstly, Hero seems to appeal to people who GM. No idea why. There are exceptions, but nearly everyone I know who has become interested in hero is a GM.

 

If there was a Fantasy game on the market, I would expect it to have a list of weapons. and Feat/Talent thingies. If I liked the game and the game had an expansion for making new, balanced weapons and new & balanced Feat/Talents, then I would buy that expansion. Hero can do this.

 

I'm not sure if Fantasy Hero is such a great idea for a starting system though, precisely because there are SO MANY fantasy games.

 

So...

 

Something like a Teen Mutant Hero (Powersuits also seem to resonate well for some reason) might be good. Break it up as follows...

 

Character Creation

Make HEAVY use of package deals (people UNDERSTAND package deals) Provide a bunch of pre-made powers (little mini USPD). Try to go rules lite where possible. Include the rules for each power IN the power description, but add flavour text as well.

Idea is that someone can make a character with only a few choices and a little customisation.

 

Rules

Provide a summary of the rules. Set it up so as much as possible can be photocopied out of the book as tables. Turn off a lot of the optional rules. Provide flowcharts. I know I summarise entire powers + combat flowchart onto little CCG cards, so it can be done. The basic rules of the hero system ARE simple. If a rule is unlikely to come up, provide a simplification of it.

 

Campaign

Provide a sample campaign... maybe an outline of the school, and a few adventures, plus a few adventure seeds. Provide a few sample bad guys (preferrably ones where powers could be swapped out with the powers section to make them different).

 

Extra

I love the idea someone had of a free .pdf that just lists all the powers etc in the book and EXACTLY how they were built. Have sections from the designers on the decisions they made, optional rules they ignored and so forth. This would be for the people going from the sample game to full blown hero. I'm worried that putting it in a book might make the book too scary.

Have a section on this site with extra characters, maybe extra powers.

 

Marketing

The book can stand alone (just). Sidekick is heavily recommended for the GM, and becomes a sort of DMG. The USPD effectively becomes an expansion/splat book of powers. CKC etc becomes a monster's manual. CU/MC become the setting books for "outside the school". Finally, H5r becomes the sort of "end of all things"; the rules to create your own books.

 

Problems...

This book will not appeal to the standard hero gamers. We'd rather build it ourselves. Heck, if we were allowed, we probably WOULD build it ourselves. Trick would be building something with enough atmosphere to make people want to play it.

 

The Genre

This will be a really important question, but teen hero seems like a good one as it plays to an area hero is very strong (Champions).

I must admit, I'm aiming this at me about the age I first started playing Champions. Bearing that in mind...

Hopefully a teenage superhero game would resonate well with younger readers. When they want extra options (and they will) hopefully they will turn to the "pre-built" books; especially USPD. Eventually they are going to want to go with 5er because they have little time and a lot of money. Younger readers are probably also more likely to try to run a crossover game.

Powersuits might be a good second choice because it seems a natural fit for a points buy system ("this armour can hold up to 100 points of weapons and 50 points of equipment" sorta thing)

 

Harakani

[Funksaw]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I know this is a long rant, but it can be summed up in a simple, honest sentence: What HERO touts as it's main selling point, the ability to create any type of character one wants, most gamers don't want. Sure, many gamers DO want it. But most - especially first-timers who like the combat and treasure of D&D, and the next generation of gamers who branch out from D&D then tend to start looking for new GENRES, and new SETTINGS, not new systems. Keep in mind, there's a very small portion of the people at large who will even branch off from D&D into this "second generation." Then after they've futzed around with maybe 50 sessions of Vampire or In Nomine or Shadowrun or whatever, only then are they going to start looking for games where they can create their own settings, and create thier own powers, games that are elegant design wise. And then, this third generation, this subset of a subset of a subset comes to this point... and they find GURPS, Tri-Stat (although not for long,) M&M and D6 in addition to HERO.

 

So think about this.

 

Maybe 20% of D&D gamers go on to play other systems. Of those 20%, maybe 20% of them go on to choose games because of the system. And then of THOSE 20%, whittle down another 20% simply due to there being a large number of generic systems on the market competing with one another.

 

And you wonder why HERO doesn't have a whole lot of market penetration?

 

 

 

 

There's another reason why people who play alot of different roleplaying games - the "gaming elite," if you will, don't play a whole lot of HERO.

 

Don't get me wrong, but it took ALOT of exposure to HERO -- AND Sidekick -- AND $10 in disposable income, and the realization that the main reason I supported GURPS for so long - the books were cheap - no longer applied -- before I even gave HERO a look.

 

It is a very good system. I am amazed by what it can model. I am also amazed that that modeling has lead to a philosophy in system design and player habit that-- hell, it's probably "better" but it is quite weird to someone used to the typical roleplaying game model of system/setting intermarried. In many ways, it's an entirely different type of game than HERO, the difference between buying a sandwich and buying a deli. Most people will only want the sandwich.

 

At the same time, the idea that Everything Can Fit Into HERO so Everything MUST Fit Into Hero, is a bit boggling. A person wants to do say, for example, run a Mage or Adventure Game in HERO Instead of talking "Let's create a model for Sphere Magic so he can play his mage game" or "Let's create a Dramatic Editing Power" the typical solution is to talk VPPs or "Dimensional Travel." In a way, this has made HERO internally consistant and internally elegant, but it suddenly becomes "Not the right tool for the job."

 

That's basically it, right there. HERO is a very strong multitool, one which, when mastered can be quite useful. But sometimes you just need a phillips head screwdriver and it's just easier to use the phillips head screwdriver.

 

And when people are going "Hey, how do I use this thing as a screwdriver," we talk about placing a phillips-head bit into the portable drill, locking down the crankshaft and get into a debate over manually twisting the entire multiool or installing a small motor to turn the shaft, and by the time you're done talking, the guy's already installed his cabinets using a phillips head screwdriver.

 

I think that if we want to gain "converts" we should start to talk about adding powers to HERO specifically to emulate particular other games out there - this will certainly have to come from the fan community, not from the official HERO guys. Because I'm looking at my shelf, and I know I can't do Mage as written in GURPS (VPPs or whatever, is just too goddamn complex and Mage is complex enough.) I know I can't do Buffy in it (No "Dramatic Serendipity Power") or Adventure. Unknown Armies is possible but hard to model and in conversion, it loses some of it's flavor. Sure, HERO might be *better* than UA in modeling "new and made up" schools of Postmodern Magick, but it's hard to simulate passions or sanity as MUCH as UA does. (CoC, because of EGO, would be less difficult.) In fact, any game where there are characteristics above and beyond those found in HERO would be hard to emulate in HERO.

 

And there are some games for which HERO will *never* be the right tool. Part of the fun of Exalted is the "CCG" mentality of "This power trumps that power but only in combination with this power..." That gets a bit washed when HERO players choose and design their own powers - a conversion to HERO of Exalted would be tremendous - I bet they're up to at least 600 charms by now... each one a discrete entity that needs individual conversion. And for those who want to *simplify* Exalted, HERO isn't the first choice, because it's not as simple as, say, "Wuxia" or even "BESM." I think that's something that alot of HERO fans don't realise - HERO is Not Simple.

 

Let me repeat it because it's true: HERO is Not Simple. It's not overwhelmingly hard, but it's NOT Simple. Yes, you do have to do division in HERO. How many other systems use division? Where, outside of HERO, does Joe Six-Pack need to use division? Hell, even White Wolf went to #2 because they figured out that people don't even want to see ANY numbers on a page (they use dots instead.) Feng Shui pretty much creates the entire character for you... including personality. I have about two shelves full of books, and the only games that rival HERO's complexity are GURPS and D&D. And HERO isn't competing for mindshare with the D&D, it's competing with all the other roleplaying games.

 

 

 

CMonkey's suggestion of "Powered by HERO" games are quite valid. The main complexity comes from the Power Creation system. If Herogames wanted to create a setting, say, a game about modern vampires or magicians, instead of having to provide a framework for the powers and a full justification and... well, instead of having to make the player "Reason From Effects" - why not just create a game with a small number of specific, discrete, pre-created powers, say 30 or so? People would then see the system at it's least complex - with Sidekick and BBB for expanding the system if they want to.

 

This does not mean "dumbing down the system," as Nexus suggests. It means saying to people: "Here is your sandwich. Are you interested in buying the deli for not much more?" It also lets people who aren't interested in buying the deli say "Well, hey, the sandwitch was good" and they might give other "deli-owners" (GMs) a try when they create their own sandwitches.

 

Work with me here, at least I'm not as bad as Alan Keyes and his smelly toads.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

This does not mean "dumbing down the system," as Nexus suggests. It means saying to people: "Here is your sandwich. Are you interested in buying the deli for not much more?" It also lets people who aren't interested in buying the deli say "Well, hey, the sandwitch was good" and they might give other "deli-owners" (GMs) a try when they create their own sandwitches.

 

Work with me here, at least I'm not as bad as Alan Keyes and his smelly toads.

 

Yeah, but unless third party developers make the sandwich its going to pull resources away from what Hero is.I don't think most third parties will go for it when they can almost assured sales from d20. And bring Hero into direct compeition with "simple" entrenched games like d20 while offering no extras and nothing particularly unique. Unless they hit on that "magic setting" there will always be "simpler" options out there for their money. I don't think the idea will gain more than its costs. That's my problem with it.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

If everyone used that reasoning, there'd be no Powered By GURPS Hellboy book. Or Discworld, or New Sun (not PBG yet, but next incarnation will be)...

[Funksaw]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Indeed, I often wonder why game companies, upon looking at the success of d20, look at how much it has increased the demand for D&D's core rulebooks, look at how d20 is the lingua franca of roleplaying, all because the system was opened, and then say "We MUST keep our IP to ourselves AT ALL COSTS!"

 

Because d20 isn't simple, either. I'd actually say it's right up there with GURPS and HERO as far as complexity goes.

 

Granted, I don't think that HERO should open-source their system but that's mainly because, unlike, say, d20, or even Storyteller, the system *is* the entire package.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

If everyone used that reasoning' date=' there'd be no Powered By GURPS Hellboy book. Or Discworld, or New Sun (not PBG yet, but next incarnation will be)...[/quote']

 

The difference is Steve Jackson games actually more market penetration than Hero and is a bigger company. If something doesn't do well that that they backed strongly they can take the hit. They can also afford more popular licenses (such as Hellboy and Discworld, to use your examples) where DOJ would likely be limited to homegrown settings which are far more risky. Its big gamble and one that could sink DOJ if they are not careful (or rely strictly on thired parties which has its own risks). Because something is a good choice for one company doesn't nesseacarily mean its a good choice for all companies in the same market.

 

Indeed, I often wonder why game companies, upon looking at the success of d20, look at how much it has increased the demand for D&D's core rulebooks, look at how d20 is the lingua franca of roleplaying, all because the system was opened, and then say "We MUST keep our IP to ourselves AT ALL COSTS!"

 

Mainly, I think because its been done. They'll be seen as "whoring" for popularity if they "copied" WOTC marketing strategy (weird but true). Also to some, it does dilute the so called integrity of the product. As much as d20 has gained in sales, among some of the "elite" of gaming its lost some respect. Smaller companies (no WOTC) backing them up likey don't want to take the risk. Also, its probably too late with d20 so firmly established as the "linqua franca" to get into now. All some systems have is there "uniqueness" to make them stand out. FWIW, I really wouldn't mind if DOJ made Hero similiarly open source. I have some material I'd like to write up and publish, but I don't think its wise for them to take the risk and go against the image of their system (with all its positives and negatives).

 

Because d20 isn't simple, either. I'd actually say it's right up there with GURPS and HERO as far as complexity goes.

 

Nope, its not. I've said that a few times (ususally to be shouted down on rpg.net) but what it has is the -perception- of being simpler which is all important. It also familiarity. Almost everybody has played D and D, it comfortable. Its "easy". Hero offers a lot more choices and a lot more options. You have to take control yourself and its intimidating in that fashion.

 

Hero has the perception of being monstrously complex. I don't think a few prepackaged setting books are going to be able to overcome that. Its been ingrained for years to be point its almost a religous beleif among same Hero haters (some of which have never even cracked the book and never will).

 

Granted, I don't think that HERO should open-source their system but that's mainly because, unlike, say, d20, or even Storyteller, the system *is* the entire package.

 

That's a good point and something I had not considered.

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

They taste the same??

Yes but Vorsch is less filling.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Hmm... this has turned into an interesting debate.

 

On the pre-packaged setting-plus-prebuilds stuff, I'll be interested in seeing the fans' (and the market's) reaction to the upcoming Valdorian Age book. That has a pretty complete world setting, with quite a bit of setting specific prebuilt material including a detailed "low fantasy" magic system with around a hundred spells. That plus HERO System Sidekick comes pretty close to the kind of package folks are talking about here, so it may be a barometer for how this approach would actually work.

 

Since the idea of "open source" has come up, I'm interested in people's view on OS vs. license. Steve Long has said in the past that Hero Games is not interested in pursuing an open-source policy at this time because they want to guarantee the quality of the products that use the system; but they're very open to licensed products, and from all reports pretty reasonable as to the terms. Some licensed HERO 5E products have already appeared, including The Kandris Seal, Omlevex, and The Dragon's Gate for GRG's "San Angelo" line, with more in the works.

 

Would you think that open source would be a better way to go, and if so, why?

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Would you think that open source would be a better way to go' date=' and if so, why?[/quote']

I don't think open source is the answer to Hero Games' problems. As others have said the system is the game. I don't know what Hero Games' license policy is but whatever it is it doesn't seem to attract a lot of potential publishers. Perhaps the up-front cash fee or royalty % is too high. Perhaps not. All indications do seem to be that Hero Games is starting to flounder slightly though so some steps need to be taken.

 

It wouldn't hurt for Hero Games to have a program similar to Superlink. What the program would do is grant royalty-free individual licenses to prospective publishers on a per book/ per printing basis. Certain criteria would need to be met [things like no published conversion systems perhaps] but it would give publishers the opportunity to get their feet wet within the system. If a game line then proved to be successful a reasonable license fee could be worked out between Hero Games and the publisher for future products.

 

But I also believe that Hero Games needs to reevaluate some of its own publishing practices. Character sheets look too long and complex when you see them on paper. Some character sheets carry one for two or three or more pages due to the style Hero Games has chosen for them. Those things need to be streamlined. Naming your individual powers is fine, when it makes senses, but having this constant reprinting of every limitation on each slot or power over and over again, plus the wordy usage for all of these limitations, is just foolish and accomplishes nothing but make the character sheet look stuffed and wordy. We all managed to game for 20 years using symbols like #, @, $ to represent groups of limitations. There is no reason that can't be continued for the sake of visual expediency, IMO. I'm not saying you need to fit two characters on a page like some previous editions but I don't think the majority of characters should be fitting on two or three. One character on two pages face-to-face should be the proper layout pattern. That way you see the whole character at one time and you're not constantly flipping back and forth.

 

What the game really needs more than anything is to simplify in the eyes of the public. That's why I recommend the genre sidekick books. You need to show potential buyers what can be done with the system without all the bells and whistles. Too many options are not a good thing when it comes to newbies and have 600 page books gives the opposite impression of what is needed.

 

BTW, you forgot the Fantasy Codex on your list.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Very thoughtful post, MitchellS, thank you.

 

 

All indications do seem to be that Hero Games is starting to flounder slightly though so some steps need to be taken.

 

I wasn't aware of signs of foundering, other than the general downturn that the RPG industry as a whole suffered in the past year. Hero Games couldn't accept much blame for that.

 

 

BTW' date=' you forgot the [i']Fantasy Codex[/i] on your list.

 

Is that out now? Cool! Have to look into that.

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I wasn't aware of signs of foundering' date=' other than the general downturn that the RPG industry as a whole suffered in the past year. Hero Games couldn't accept much blame for that.[/quote']

The reasons for the floundering are not important [though I have my own opinions about it which I have stated in other threads]. Survival during the floundering period is what is important. Other systems like M&M can weather the hard spots easier due to a much larger fan-base. Hero Games has had three years to establish itself, now it needs to turn some of its time and resources on acquiring new gamers. Sidekick was the first step in that process but now it needs to be taken further. Even a "lite" toolkit is of no use if the potential mechanic can't see how to use the tools.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Thus far, having participated in the lengthy rpg.net thread, it seems to me that the top three reasons more people arent playing the HERO System are:

 

1) Personal Preference

 

2) Misinformation and misunderstandings

 

3) A Vicious Combination Of #1 and #2

 

#1 is obvious and universal.

 

As far as #2 it seems like most peoples issue with the game stems directly from either the person having misunderstood key elements of the game and/or being misinformed about the game by others.

 

#3 is a combination of someone ill-disposed to like the game in the first place either skimming the rules looking for things not to like (or misconstrue), or who arent motivated enough to delve further into areas that arent completely clear on first reading because they dont like heavy system games in the first place.