Is Flying Dodge too good?

[JmOz]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

In my games, if you abort using Flying Dodge all you get is the +4 DCV

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Maybe she should try it. With Zl'f's high SPD' date=' she can aford to abort to a few Flying Dodges and DfCs, and still have phases left to attack.[/quote']She just hasn't had need to use it yet. I've only had it for about 4 game sessions. I'm sure I'll find it useful at some point. (BTW, for her the sfx of Flying Dodge is she's cartwheeling or somersaulting as she moves from Point A to Point B. It's not something she would use going out for tea.)

 

Of course, Fred the Fat Security Guard will have a 10 or less chance of DfCing out of the way of Zl'f's hyper-speed punches, but that's comic books for ya.

Yep. And he'll be unconscious the next Segment. Either way he's just comic relief. (How else are we supposed to take an overweight 50 year old normal with a MagLiteâ„¢ and a .38 revolver trying to fight a metahuman who can literally dodge bullets?)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

That being said, there is some fuzziness in the rules, especially based on Steve Long's ruling.

 

I tend to rule it as such:

 

If the character aborts to a "Flying Dodge", he can perform a ½move with it (only a ½ move, as you are aborting to the manuever, which ends the phase aborted). However, the attack that caused the abort will take place prior to the move occuring. Thus, the attack takes place with the increased DCV, but if it lands, the effects still take place (inclucing possible KB). Then, if the character can still move, the character may make the ½ move.

 

I know that this technically breaks the ruling that the action takes place all at once, but it prevents the Flying Dodge from become a broken version of DFC.

This is pretty much how I do it. You get the +4 DCV immediately, but you have to DEX-off for the movement. And I would still allow for the Full move, unless the attack hits and stuns/KO's the FDer.

 

If you can just abort to a full move without any DEX roll and automatically avoid all HTH and AE attacks (let's be honest here, any MA with FD is going to have enough movement to get out of almost all AE attacks), plus get +4 to DCV, I'd say that's way too much for 5 points.

 

And if you really play it this way, why can't a non-martial-artist do a regular abort to Move? Or even just half-move? It's called "Run Away" - a time-honored maneuver used to avoid all kinds of dangers including killer bunnies. It is technically a defensive action. I simply turn and run from the threat. Why can't a normal person do this? I know it's not in the rules, but it makes perfect sense given Steve's ruling on FD. For myself, I wouldn't have a problem with a normal Run Away maneuver - abort, half-move (maybe even full move), but you don't end up prone, and you don't get any DCV bonus. I would make the person DEX-off with their attacker to do this however, and I would apply the same DEX-off roll for a martial artist using Flying Dodge.

 

And the other thing that bothers me about the ruling is that a non-AE ranged attack can still hit you no matter how far you move, but an AE attack will automatically miss if you get out of the original area. Isn't an Advantage supposed to be advantageous? Why can the attacker track along your movement with a non-AE attack, but can't track with an AE attack? Steve's ruling essentially voids the only hope most non-MA's often have of hitting the higher DEX MA's - namely with an Area Effect attack.

 

To summarize:

All the Martial Artist has to do is say "I abort to Flying Dodge," and

- All HtH attacks automatically miss

- All Ranged AE attacks with radius < MA's movement* automatically miss, and certainly those with One Hex

- All Ranged non-Area attacks target at +4 DCV, and a possibly increased range penalty.

 

*What is a typical amount of movement for a Martial Artist? Well NCM is 10" of Running, so that certainly isn't out of the question. How many AE attacks have a 10" radius or more? It's also quire possible for a Martial Artist in a super game to have 20" of movement or more. Is the character allowed to push his movement when making a Flying Dodge? Let's say there's a 100 AP limit. Then you could have a 10d6 EB with a 5" radius. Or for 101 AP, you could have a 9d6 EB with a 9" radius. Or a 8d6 EB with a 16" radius for 100 AP - aha! We might have him now! Or a 7d6 EB 28" for 96 AP. So for 100 AP, you *might* be able to overcome the martial artist's 5-pt maneuver and tag him with 7-8 DC. hoo-ray.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The auto-miss nature of Flying Dodge vs. AOE attacks assumes that ALL AOE attacks are going to be targeted at a particular hex. I looked in 5ER under AOE, and it does state that this is the default but it stands to reason that after missing by a mile once or twice a character with AOE might try just going against the target's base DCV. This gives no 'bonus' to hit that target but it also would cancel out the target's ability to DFC or Flying Dodge. The only trick is to decide where a 'miss' ends up.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

And the other thing that bothers me about the ruling is that a non-AE ranged attack can still hit you no matter how far you move' date=' but an AE attack will automatically miss if you get out of the original area. Isn't an Advantage supposed to be advantageous? Why can the attacker track along your movement with a non-AE attack, but can't track with an AE attack? Steve's ruling essentially voids the only hope most non-MA's often have of hitting the higher DEX MA's - namely with an Area Effect attack.[/quote']

The reason the AE attacks still "miss" is because they were never aimed at the character. The only reason the HTH attacks miss is because the target isn't in range anymore.

 

Surprise that darn martial artist with a few inches of Stretching and see him Flying Dodge again!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The auto-miss nature of Flying Dodge vs. AOE attacks assumes that ALL AOE attacks are going to be targeted at a particular hex. I looked in 5ER under AOE, and it does state that this is the default but it stands to reason that after missing by a mile once or twice a character with AOE might try just going against the target's base DCV. This gives no 'bonus' to hit that target but it also would cancel out the target's ability to DFC or Flying Dodge. The only trick is to decide where a 'miss' ends up.

 

HM

Beat me to it!

 

 

But to continue what you said, you determine where the missed AE attack against a character's DCV the same way you do otherwise. The difference is that you're likely to miss by a LOT of hexes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Thinking about Fred the big fat blah blah security guard. Why doesn't the dude with the gun just Cover him? Takes just as long as a normal attack, costs no point to be able to do, and only has a -2 OCV penalty (that's nothing against a security guard that's probably still at 1/2 DCV from being surprised by you even being there).

 

So he's covered. You haven't attacked yet, so he's not likely to dodge or DFC or anything. When he does, you just blast him before he gets anywhere. Job done, and DFC didn't help at all.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The anser, if its to good or not is to push it to the limits.

 

Your in HTH combat with God

 

He has infinite spd, dex, str and everthing else

 

Flying dodge allows you to avoid being hit by him.

 

I feel this ansers the question

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The anser, if its to good or not is to push it to the limits.

 

Your in HTH combat with God

 

He has infinite spd, dex, str and everthing else

 

Flying dodge allows you to avoid being hit by him.

 

I feel this ansers the question

Fine. Let's see your write-up for "infinite" stats in Hero. Then and only then will I even come close to buying an argument like this.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Its meant to higlight a point

 

reduction ad absurdum

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The anser, if its to good or not is to push it to the limits.

 

Your in HTH combat with God

 

He has infinite spd, dex, str and everthing else

 

Flying dodge allows you to avoid being hit by him.

 

I feel this ansers the question

If one can actually postulate a hypothetical scenario where your character is actually locked in Hand to Hand combat with the Almighty, then accepting that God might miss his first attack if his opponent successfully Dives for Cover doesn't really seem too much of a stretch.

 

:rofl"

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I dissagree, dive for cover bypasses all levels of skill or spd.

 

If God can miss it a rules issue.

 

If this feeling wasent true for some players this thread woundt be here

[Oruncrest]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

The anser, if its to good or not is to push it to the limits.

 

Your in HTH combat with God

 

He has infinite spd, dex, str and everthing else

 

Flying dodge allows you to avoid being hit by him.

 

I feel this ansers the question

 

God is also Omnipresent, so he has infinite Stretching and infinite Teleportation.

 

DFC and Flying Dodge wouldn't save you.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Ok seems using god as a example is to emotive for some people.

 

The flash: power Superspeed at lightspeed level

 

Human MA with dex 10 spt 2, dives for cover. The Flash fails to hit him with his OCV 50 attack, he acted first, won iniative if used, still missed.

 

in fact its worse the flash cant hit him at all this phase, no matter what. No amount of superspeed can beat dive for cover. Next phase is a different story i admit.

 

This seems obviously wrong, though probabilly not to hard core Herophiles "its the rules". sad but true

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Ok seems using god as a example is to emotive for some people.

 

The flash: power Superspeed at lightspeed level

 

Human MA with dex 10 spt 2, dives for cover. The Flash fails to hit him with his OCV 50 attack, he acted first, won iniative if used, still missed.

 

in fact its worse the flash cant hit him at all this phase, no matter what. No amount of superspeed can beat dive for cover. Next phase is a different story i admit.

 

This seems obviously wrong, though probabilly not to hard core Herophiles "its the rules". sad but true

This argument assumes that Flash's powers of superspeed wouldn't allow him to, in effect, get an automatic suprise attack (which a target cannot abort to a defensive action against) vs. a much slower opponent if he decides to punch first and ask questions later. Flash's powers (and any really well thought out speedster for that matter) are made up of quite a lot more than just DEX, SPD and Movement.

 

HM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

This argument assumes that Flash's powers of superspeed wouldn't allow him to' date=' in effect, get an automatic [u']suprise attack[/u] (which a target cannot abort to a defensive action against) vs. a much slower opponent if he decides to punch first and ask questions later. Flash's powers (and any really well thought out speedster for that matter) are made up of quite a lot more than just DEX, SPD and Movement.

 

HM

 

Flash should not need to attack Fred the Security Guard by surprise; Flash's 40+ Dex and 13+ OCV should allow him every confidence of hitting poor, pathetic DCV 3 Dex 8 Fred. Instead, by the rules, Fred has a 10 or less chance of making a 1" DfC to avoid Flash's hyper-speed punch, and can guarantee a miss on Flash's part if 5 of Fred's 35 points went into Flying Dodge. For extra comedy value, give Fred a running speed of 3", and watch him waddle slowly out of the way of the fists of the world's fastest man.

 

House rules to fix this (thou shalt play Fred dumb, thou shalt require this or that, thou shalt not do that) are easy enough, but this seems a case where the by the book rules could use some tweaking.

 

By the way, you can DFC to avoid being covered as well, so it still doesn't help.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Flash should not need to attack Fred the Security Guard by surprise; Flash's 40+ Dex and 13+ OCV should allow him every confidence of hitting poor, pathetic DCV 3 Dex 8 Fred. Instead, by the rules, Fred has a 10 or less chance of making a 1" DfC to avoid Flash's hyper-speed punch, and can guarantee a miss on Flash's part if 5 of Fred's 35 points went into Flying Dodge. For extra comedy value, give Fred a running speed of 3", and watch him waddle slowly out of the way of the fists of the world's fastest man.

 

House rules to fix this (thou shalt play Fred dumb, thou shalt require this or that, thou shalt not do that) are easy enough, but this seems a case where the by the book rules could use some tweaking.

 

By the way, you can DFC to avoid being covered as well, so it still doesn't help.

That argument breaks down on one very important point. If 5ER is broken can you show me where Flying Dodge actually appears in that text? As far as I am aware of it doesn't, it only appears in UMA which is currently out of print.

 

HM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

That argument breaks down on one very important point. If 5ER is broken can you show me where Flying Dodge actually appears in that text? As far as I am aware of it doesn't' date=' it only appears in [b']UMA[/b] which is currently out of print.

 

HM

 

My "argument" is that both of these optional combat maneuvers have to be used carefully, in accordance with (cue Steve's theme music) common and dramatic sense. Pointing out that they are optional breaks no part of that argument.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I agree totally that the ramifications of Flying Dodge needs to be thought out in advance before being allowed in a campaign. But DFC is an optional rule from within 5ER. Its effects are not nearly so dramatic.

 

back to the Flash example:

 

Let's say Flash is facing a mirror universe Batman (gosh this seems familiar). let's assume that Bats knows just about every martial maneuver in existence and has Defense Maneuver I-IV. Flash has several options for attacks to take Batman out quickly. One is to have a HA punch with Indirect (can not be blocked). Another is to have Teleport with IPE Sound to be able to negate Batman's ability to 'abort' defensively (he still has his FULL DCV due to Defense Manuever). Since Flash is the archtype of the type of character that Flying Dodge was intended for (speedster) I think its very self evident that he could get around it vs. an opponent who knows the 'art' but doesn't have the 'speedster-powers' to go along with it.

 

HM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I agree totally that the ramifications of Flying Dodge needs to be thought out in advance before being allowed in a campaign. But DFC is an optional rule from within 5ER. Its effects are not nearly so dramatic.

 

back to the Flash example:

 

Let's say Flash is facing a mirror universe Batman (gosh this seems familiar). let's assume that Bats knows just about every martial maneuver in existence and has Defense Maneuver I-IV. Flash has several options for attacks to take Batman out quickly. One is to have a HA punch with Indirect (can not be blocked). Another is to have Teleport with IPE Sound to be able to negate Batman's ability to 'abort' defensively (he still has his FULL DCV due to Defense Manuever). Since Flash is the archtype of the type of character that Flying Dodge was intended for (speedster) I think its very self evident that he could get around it vs. an opponent who knows the 'art' but doesn't have the 'speedster-powers' to go along with it.

 

HM

 

Using Bats lets you avoid the potential silliness of Flying Dodge and DfC; I'd rather stick with Fred. Your house rules and mine don't really enter into it. By the book, there's nothing stopping Fred from having Flying Dodge or using DfC except the GM's choice. Allowing Fred to use DfC (perfectly legal and by-the-book) gives him a 10 or less chance of avoiding an attack from a foe that has 10 points of CV on him minimum. Flying Dodge lets him do it automatically. As a Player and a GM, can you honestly not see the deep goofiness there?

 

As far as building characters with auto-surprise attacks is concerned, yes, that is one way of dealing with these optional rules. I think it's overkill, and that restricting the maneuvers to characters for whom they are dramatically appropriate is a much cleaner fix.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Um, isn't the Flash's "unblockable" punch bought IPE? You know, 'cuz it's so fast you can't see it coming, and therefore can't really do anything about it?

 

It's not the maneuver that's broken, it's that a few people think that SFX logic should win out over a construct. I can easily say my character's 6d6 EB is an anti-mater ray, and because anti-mater will damage anything in comes in contact with, the target shouldn't get away with being unscratched must because he brought a kevlar fest. But unless I actually pay the points for that advantage (NND, Does BODY or similar), he's just an EB no mater what I call it, or how many levels I put on it.

 

So, of you want to perform a maneuver that, if successfull, will automatically save you from harm, regardless of what the attacker's skill is, use DFC or Flying Dodge. If you want an attack that either of those maneuvers are useless against, build that attack (IPE, really big AE, Stretching: Only To Reach A Target That Performed A Flying Dodge, etc). There's nothing wrong with the maneuver that spending a few points to counter it won't fix.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Its meant to higlight a point

 

reduction ad absurdum

Ok seems using god as a example is to emotive for some people.

Not that, just the idea of an all knowing being with infinate power (and an equally infinate number of character points) doing something as simple as a normal punch that any idiot could avoid. I think any such being would be more clever in their approach than that.

 

Also, sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in my earlier post. No offense intended.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Using Bats lets you avoid the potential silliness of Flying Dodge and DfC; I'd rather stick with Fred. Your house rules and mine don't really enter into it. By the book, there's nothing stopping Fred from having Flying Dodge or using DfC except the GM's choice. Allowing Fred to use DfC (perfectly legal and by-the-book) gives him a 10 or less chance of avoiding an attack from a foe that has 10 points of CV on him minimum. Flying Dodge lets him do it automatically. As a Player and a GM, can you honestly not see the deep goofiness there?

 

As far as building characters with auto-surprise attacks is concerned, yes, that is one way of dealing with these optional rules. I think it's overkill, and that restricting the maneuvers to characters for whom they are dramatically appropriate is a much cleaner fix.

Two points:

 

1) Moving one hex away is still HtH range. Fred has to DfC at least 2" to avoid an HtH attack. So he's at a 9 or less. If we're going to be pedants, let's at least be accurate pedants.

 

2) Assuming Fred successfully DfCs 2" away from Evil Dude, what's to prevent Evil Dude from either a) Moving 1" and attacking the now-prone (1/2 DCV) Fred Attacking Fred with a ranged or Area Effect attack? DfC only works the way it's been described in this thread if the character in question uses it to avoid an already incoming attack. If Evil Dude just Holds until Fat Fred has DfC'd, ED can still obliterate Freddy in his first attack just by waiting.

 

It's even easier with Flying Dodge: Moving away with FD still only gains the dodger +4 DCV, and he's still hittable with an EX attack, Area Effect attack, or even someone with sufficient OCV.

 

To Summarize: These are useful maneuvers. They are in no way unbalanced or overly powerful if used as written. Many maneuvers are powerful against a tactically clumsy opponent. Watch what happens when our fearless speedster Mr. Quick tries a 30" Move By on a martial artist who has Martial Throw. Mr. Quick will be eating concrete. Does that make Martial Throw too powerful, or does it simply mean Mr. Quick needs to adjust his tactics against martial artists?

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Not that, just the idea of an all knowing being with infinate power (and an equally infinate number of character points) doing something as simple as a normal punch that any idiot could avoid. I think any such being would be more clever in their approach than that.

 

Its the 'any idiot' part that bugs me, regardless of stats you have a 100% guaranteed, cast iron, get out of jail free card. Thats just wrong.

[Lupus]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Here's my problem: the whole 'move a couple of hexes back to avoid damage' thing is incredibly gamey. It's like what I was saying on another thread about DCV 3 hexes for area effects.

 

I mean, sure, on the miniatures table, the two characters are static. But y'know, if you move two metres back, why can't I just move two metres to catch up? And if I'm swinging, why on earth can you move two metres out of my way before my arm and moved fifty centimetres?

 

Why? Because the minis on the board are static. They're solid objects. The people they represent, however, are dynamic. Constantly changing.

 

To me, the thing of throwing yourself out of the way of an attack is taken care of by Dodge. It's all you need. DFC should be used to get yourself behind cover or away from a grenade - but, y'know, I don't have a problem with that maneuver.

 

I DO have a problem with Flying Dodge, because it has almost all the benefits of DFC, plus almost all the benefits of Martial Dodge. It seems to me far more of a super-skill than a martial maneuver.

 

But back to the 'jump 1" back'... people are objecting to it because it's damn well GAMEY. It brings them (at least, it brings me) out of the game and makes me remember it's just chunks of lead on a hex mat. Breaks suspension of disbelief.

 

And THAT is why I think it's a problem. Sure, you could spend a few points on stretching (even stretching 'only to defeat DFC/Flying Dodge) - but that's not the point. The maneuver itself is silly.

 

It's like computer games that take advantage of crappy camera angles to hide objects or monsters, even though the characters have clear line of sight to them. Something that works in the game world, but only due to the way the game works - gameyness. It seems this feeling isn't universal, but I want more from my tabletop RPGs.