Is Flying Dodge too good?

[Edsel]

If you read up on Flying Dodge, and the FAQ about it, it seems to be a great manuver for the price. Not only can you abort to a Dodge, but it is also acts like a Dive for Cover that requires no DEX roll to accomplish. You do sacrifice 1 point of DCV (Flying Dodge is +4 DCV instead of +5), but at a cost of 5 character points, its a real bargain.

 

The reason that I bring this up is because my character (a bard, who is acrobatic) has this manuver. Last night when I attempted to use it there was an objection (from one of the other players!), that it was too powerful a manuver and that it should not get to act as a Dive for Cover. I was a little torqued (since this came from super-DEX fighter who I think felt threatened that somebody had an ability he did not) but I let it go since I didn't want to disrupt the game and it really wasn't vital at the time.

 

What is your opinion about the Flying Dodge? It it too powerful for its point cost, or is it okay?

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Reading the Faq, I'm kind of surprised. Flying Dodge does not allow automatic avoidance of Ranged Attacks by using a Dex roll in the way that DFC does (check the full write up of DFC in 5thER), but it does allow automatic avoidance of HtH attacks, and has none of DFC's drawbacks. That is very powerful, especially in a Martial Arts or Super Heroes game. Still, it's legal. I'd find it frustrating in some campaigns, but I'd allow it in the right setting and with the right characters.

 

Or I'd just house-rule that the Auto-avoidance of HTH part of the FAQ did not apply.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

There was a lengthy thread about this at some point a few months ago. Personally, it's one of my favorite Manuevers and not only do I like it, but I allow it pretty broadly and use it on characters that I design where appropriate.

 

But I like dynamic moving battles, so there you go.

 

As far as it being better than D4C, thats not really a big deal; all of the Martial Manuevers that parrallel normal Manuevers are substantially better.

 

Buying the equivalent DCV levels and limiting them would cost 8 points, but again Martial Manuevers are all discounted to some extent or another so I dont consider that to be a big deal.

 

As far as avoiding HtH attacks, its effectively the same as if the character held an action and then made their DEX off against a melee attacker and took their Held action to simply move away from the attacker -- the attacker then misses because their target is no longer in range. Simple as that. The main difference here is that the character doesnt have to make a DEX of roll or hold -- they can abort to it (and have the equivalent of DCV levels usable while doing it)

 

 

If you feel like it is too powerful for your campaign, consider removing the Abort option from it, so that it basically serves to allow characters to make FMOVEs with more safety or forces them to hold an action and then DEX off to use it, making it more inline w/ D4C (inasmuch as requiring a DEX Roll).

[Agent X]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I think your fellow player should learn how to play the game without whining jealousy.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Agent X said it perfectly. Suggest that those complaining could shell out the 5 points for the maneuver (or 10 points for a martial art including this maneuver) if they feel crippled in comparison to your character.

[Lupus]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I like flying dodge, but I think it's plenty good enough without being able to abort to half-move-plus-dodge. I allow it, but if you abort, you don't get to move. If you do it in your turn, you can FMove AND get +4 DCV.

 

So I think you're safe whichever one you go with. Cut down the power, leave it as intended, play it how you want in your game. It's all good.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Reading the Faq, I'm kind of surprised. Flying Dodge does not allow automatic avoidance of Ranged Attacks by using a Dex roll in the way that DFC does (check the full write up of DFC in 5thER), but it does allow automatic avoidance of HtH attacks, and has none of DFC's drawbacks. That is very powerful, especially in a Martial Arts or Super Heroes game. Still, it's legal. I'd find it frustrating in some campaigns, but I'd allow it in the right setting and with the right characters.

 

Or I'd just house-rule that the Auto-avoidance of HTH part of the FAQ did not apply.

If you think about it, pretty much any movement allows the character to automatically move out of HtH range. All Flying Dodge really does is permit the character to both move and gain a +4 to DCV. There is nothing to prohibit the attacker from targeting the character with a ranged attack after he executes his Flying Dodge.

 

It's not a particularly cheap maneuver. It's effective, but in many ways it's not as good as a DfC. My character Zl'f has it, but it's a maneuver she's never actually used and I bought it mostly because it seems to make sense for a high DEX combatant. From the FAQ (in fact I was the one who originally asked Steve Long this question on the Hero System Questions board):

 

Q: Does Flying Dodge work like “Martial Dive For Cover�

 

A: No. Flying Dodge functions differently — it doesn’t require a DEX Roll, render a character “prone,†or the like.

 

If a character with Flying Dodge moves out of the way of an area-affecting attack, compare the inches moved to where the attack hits (typically the hex the character was formerly standing in) and the attack’s size — it’s possible that, as with a Dive For Cover, the character’s movement didn’t carry him far enough to get out of the way. If the Flying Dodge’s movement carries him beyond the area covered by the Area Of Effect/Explosion, then the attack doesn’t affect him.

 

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a ranged non-area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the maneuver, but he’s not automatically missed — the attacker still gets a roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it’s a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Regarding appropriateness of manuever:

The style of game being played is probably the most important factor in determining if Flying Dodge is appropriate for the campaign. Since UMA includes the maneuver as part of a sample writeup of a 'speedster martial arts' but does not show it as part of any of the 'real world' ones it stands to reason that someone who wants to use this manuever in a non-supers game had better design a completely NEW martial arts with some history and/or explanation for its existence in the game world. This would go a long way towards making it a fairer art and manuever for other players and NPC's in the game to learn and possibly use analyze style against.

 

Regarding the auto-miss vs. HTH:

This was hashed out en-mass on the original Flying Dodge thread but one idea I suggested before was to allow movement based* attacks that did not use up all of the Attacker's movement to treat Flying Dodge as just a DVC bonus as long as the Attacker has enough movement left to account for the Dodgers movement.

 

* Move Through, Move Bye and any of the 4 or 5 point full move attacks from UMA.

 

HM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I can kind of see the justification for the "HtH auto miss"... but how about this.

 

Normal dodge tends to happen "at the same time" as the attack... the basic +5 DCV. The Flying Dodge, though... assumes an action "before" the attack. That seems a bit iffy.

 

So... what about this... for HtH attacks, it is essentially a DEX off... like with a held action. If the Dodger wins, they move before the attack and HtH auto-misses. If the attacker wins, or it is a tie... it is just a +4 DCV, with a resultant 1/2 move at the end.

 

I think that's how I'd run it... but since I'd never even heard of this maneuver before this thread, I've not had to worry about it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I don't recall if this is the "official" way of doing it, but I handle the movement aspect of Flying Dodge like normal movement you can abort to. That is, if you use Flying Dodge as your action (held or otherwise), you get the Full Move, if you abort to it, you can only make a Half Move.

 

Other than that, I treat it exactly as it appears in The Book and FAQ.

 

I'm not too sure about Hyperman's idea about using Flying Dodge versus another FMove element attack. To the best of my knowledge, when an attacker attacks with one of those maneuvers, he must plot his entire course as part of declaring his attack. If he wants to change course, he can, but aborts his attack to do so. I'll check The Book and see if it offers any insight.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I can kind of see the justification for the "HtH auto miss"... but how about this.

 

Normal dodge tends to happen "at the same time" as the attack... the basic +5 DCV. The Flying Dodge, though... assumes an action "before" the attack. That seems a bit iffy.

Well, technically, all defensive action actions happen before the attack. Not at the same time, but before. There is no assumption, The Book specifically states this. If you have defensive actions happen at the same time, you essentially screw everybody out of their aborts.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Well' date=' technically, all defensive action actions happen before the attack. Not at the same time, but before. There is no assumption, The Book specifically states this. If you have defensive actions happen at the same time, you essentially screw everybody out of their aborts.[/quote']

 

Really... I did not know that. Is this new to 5th Edition?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I have to say that how the rules handle a FMove Dodge is one of my biggest (only?) areas of disagreement with one of Steve's rulings. I treat the "FMove" element in a Martial Arts maneuver as simply meaning, "This maneuver can be performed during a Full Move." I don't treat it as meaning, "This maneuver includes a Full Move."

 

It's a subtle, but important, difference, IMO. It basically means that Aborting to such a maneuver gives you only the maneuver's other effects (CV mods, etc.). You're simply using it without moving (since you can't Abort to movement).

[Eosin]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

DM of the game here

 

The most important thing to me - is that the Flying Dodge has not been abused. However, it has huge abuse potential. This is a FH game BTW for those who are interested. And my ruling at the time was that the abort to what is in essence a dive for cover of 7 inches (something that no heroic level character can hope to make) with no chance of failure (unlike D4C which require a DEX @ -1 per inch) seems a little excessive but I understand that this is the current ruling and it would hold for now.

 

The second issue I have with it is that it also acts as +4 DCV while moving - anytime you want. But again this has not been abused in the game so it ain't really an issue but it certianly could become one.

 

DM: Do you walk down to the tavern?

PLAYER: Nope, I flying Dodge down to the tavern - I never walk anywhere.

 

Overall, Flying Dodge is IMO way too powerful, and in the hands of "the super-dex player" it would be outlawed in a heartbeat. Is it too cheap? I would buy it on every character if given the chance, same as FMove Strike. So, IMO that makes it too cheap.....just like DEX, STR, Combat Luck......

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

It's a subtle' date=' but important, difference, IMO. It basically means that Aborting to such a maneuver gives you only the maneuver's other effects (CV mods, etc.). You're simply using it without moving (since you can't Abort to movement).[/quote']

 

Well, you can abort to movement with a DFC, and you can hold an action, then Dex Off for movement before your opponent acts. There is precedent for aborting to movement.

 

The problem I see with Flying Dodge is the same one I have with DFC; are you allowing it in situations where it matches up with dramatic and common sense? As it is, these moves make Dex and OCV advantages far less useful. Sometimes that will make good dramatic sense; having Joe Hero DFC to avoid a deadly hail of bullets is part of every action film, and a Wuxia Master fliping backwards out of the way of a powerful punch or kick works as well. It's when Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old security guard can DFC out of the way of a bullet fired from three feet away, or dance back away from a punch thrown by the party speedster, that these maneuvers will (imo) start to really frustrate your players.

 

In the game I'm currently co-GMing, I've been allowing DFC for a group of highly trained agents; I would not allow it for a statndard issue street thug, because, from a dramatic POV, street thugs are not meant to be that tough for heroes to deal with, and from a realistic POV normal humans do not leap out of the way of close range bullet fast attacks. I have allowed Flying Dodge for Speedsters and Speedster Bricks; I would not consider it for a "normal" martial artist. Again, just my POV.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Well, you can abort to movement with a DFC, and you can hold an action, then Dex Off for movement before your opponent acts. There is precedent for aborting to movement.

 

The problem I see with Flying Dodge is the same one I have with DFC; are you allowing it in situations where it matches up with dramatic and common sense? As it is, these moves make Dex and OCV advantages far less useful. Sometimes that will make good dramatic sense; having Joe Hero DFC to avoid a deadly hail of bullets is part of every action film, and a Wuxia Master fliping backwards out of the way of a powerful punch or kick works as well. It's when Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old security guard can DFC out of the way of a bullet fired from three feet away, or dance back away from a punch thrown by the party speedster, that these maneuvers will (imo) start to really frustrate your players.

 

In the game I'm currently co-GMing, I've been allowing DFC for a group of highly trained agents; I would not allow it for a statndard issue street thug, because, from a dramatic POV, street thugs are not meant to be that tough for heroes to deal with, and from a realistic POV normal humans do not leap out of the way of close range bullet fast attacks. I have allowed Flying Dodge for Speedsters and Speedster Bricks; I would not consider it for a "normal" martial artist. Again, just my POV.

 

While I agree with your line of thinking on this... such thinking is really a "IMO" type of thing. You present the argument well, and I agree with it... until I say... "But what if Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old is the PC? What if he is the hero of the story? Suddenly... damn straight FtFFYO can Flying Dodge... because it is certainly within dramatic license that somehow our beefy hero can scramble right, and plop down halfway across the foyer before the thug can draw a bead.

 

The problem is, when you are talking about a consistent rule system... using a guideline like "dramaticly appropriate" is just WAY too subjective.

 

IMO... there is no need for Flying Dodge. To me, the flipping away from an attack wuxia master is simply using Acrobatics to gain plusses to their DCV.

 

This just goes to one of my beefs with many of Steve's current additions to the game... is that they aren't needed. It is creating a rule/maneuver etc., for actions that can be easily abstracted from an already large list of maneuvers and skills. Things like Flying Dodge or all the Autofire skills, etc. Just seem unnecessary... IMO... and can cause issues like the fact that I damn well would Flying Dodge everywhere if I had that maneuver. Why not?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

It's when Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old security guard can DFC out of the way of a bullet fired from three feet away' date=' or dance back away from a punch thrown by the party speedster, that these maneuvers will (imo) start to really frustrate your players.[/quote']With Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old's DEX 8 and his SPD 3, his chances of successfully executing a DfC are not good. Let's say he somehow manages to dive 2" behind a counter. That puts him at ½DCV until his next Phase, four entire Segments distant. Any character built on more than 75 CP can easily move and hit Fred before he can get up again and attempt to flee. Contrary to Hollywood, it's not actually all that easy to hit a moving target. But once Fred has DfC'd, he's toast. All he managed to do was stay alive for two or three more seconds.

 

However, if you're playing Fred as a typical fictional security guard from film and fiction (clearly a far more dangerous job than swimming wounded in shark-infested waters) then he won't DfC anyway. He'll stupidly go for his gun, and won't even clear leather before he's cut down.

[Silbeg]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I have to say that how the rules handle a FMove Dodge is one of my biggest (only?) areas of disagreement with one of Steve's rulings. I treat the "FMove" element in a Martial Arts maneuver as simply meaning' date=' "This maneuver can be performed during a Full Move." I don't treat it as meaning, "This maneuver [i']includes[/i] a Full Move."

 

It's a subtle, but important, difference, IMO. It basically means that Aborting to such a maneuver gives you only the maneuver's other effects (CV mods, etc.). You're simply using it without moving (since you can't Abort to movement).

Can't disagree with you on this one, Derek. In fact, this would be the intuitive interpretation of the rules.

 

That being said, there is some fuzziness in the rules, especially based on Steve Long's ruling.

 

I tend to rule it as such:

 

If the character aborts to a "Flying Dodge", he can perform a ½move with it (only a ½ move, as you are aborting to the manuever, which ends the phase aborted). However, the attack that caused the abort will take place prior to the move occuring. Thus, the attack takes place with the increased DCV, but if it lands, the effects still take place (inclucing possible KB). Then, if the character can still move, the character may make the ½ move.

 

I know that this technically breaks the ruling that the action takes place all at once, but it prevents the Flying Dodge from become a broken version of DFC.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Really... I did not know that. Is this new to 5th Edition?

It's at least as old as 4th Edition, and maybe older. I don't have any 3rd or pervious rulebooks to check though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I really don't think DFC or Flying Dodge are broken. Flying Dodge costs 5 points, in addition to at least another 5 points spent on a prerequisite. Ultimately, it only allows a character to move as an Abort, instead of by holding or using an action. It's not really that powerful. Especially considering that for those 5 points, you can only Flying Dodge for 6" max. You actually have to pay for a Movement Power (which costs more points) if you want to move further than that. Flying Dodge really isn't all that powerful unless you are buying other stuff with it, and even then, it doesn't make a character much more powerful than he'd be without it. Certainly not more than having a +2 OCV with his signature attack, and that actually cost less than Flying Dodge.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

With Fred the Fat Fifty-Year-Old's DEX 8 and his SPD 3, his chances of successfully executing a DfC are not good. Let's say he somehow manages to dive 2" behind a counter. That puts him at ½DCV until his next Phase, four entire Segments distant. Any character built on more than 75 CP can easily move and hit Fred before he can get up again and attempt to flee. Contrary to Hollywood, it's not actually all that easy to hit a moving target. But once Fred has DfC'd, he's toast. All he managed to do was stay alive for two or three more seconds.

 

However, if you're playing Fred as a typical fictional security guard from film and fiction (clearly a far more dangerous job than swimming wounded in shark-infested waters) then he won't DfC anyway. He'll stupidly go for his gun, and won't even clear leather before he's cut down.

 

By the rules straight from the 5thER book, Fred the Dex 8 security guard has a 10 or less chance to DFC 1" out of the way of Laser Dude's optic blasts, even if Laser Dude is only 8 feet away. Fred does not actually need any cover to dive behind. Sure, Laser Dude's speed advantage will let him take old Fred eventually, but not without shooting up the lobby and wasting time and probably END. Again, IMO, I don't want Fred the Security Guard to take all that much effort for Laser Dude to defeat.

 

I do agree with the second part of your reply; playing Fred cinematically stupid is the quickest fix.

[Mentor]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

Overall, Flying Dodge is IMO way too powerful, and in the hands of "the super-dex player" it would be outlawed in a heartbeat. Is it too cheap? I would buy it on every character if given the chance, same as FMove Strike. So, IMO that makes it too cheap.....just like DEX, STR, Combat Luck......

Not in my game unless your character concept was rock solid in justifying the power, bub...which was of course your point. Naturally the best ability which is incompatible with the reasonable concept of the PC is academic anyway.

 

I won't have any high DEX and SPD Bricks doing Flying Dodges unless the concept perfectly justifies it and the player is not a known gamebuster. And yes, the GM alone is the arbiter of balance and reasonable concept for his/her campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

If memory serves, I didn't buy Flying Dodge for Zl'f (my 43 DEX MA) until both Mentor and Blackjack had suggested I do so. So not only did I not originally float the idea but I didn't acquire it until after two of our campaign's GMs had actually encouraged it.

 

She's still never used it yet IIRC.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

I really don't think DFC or Flying Dodge are broken. Flying Dodge costs 5 points' date=' in addition to at least another 5 points spent on a prerequisite. Ultimately, it only allows a character to move as an Abort, instead of by holding or using an action. It's not really that powerful. Especially considering that for those 5 points, you can only Flying Dodge for 6" max. You actually have to pay for a Movement Power (which costs more points) if you want to move further than that. Flying Dodge really isn't all that powerful unless you are buying other stuff with it, and even then, it doesn't make a character much more powerful than he'd be without it. Certainly not more than having a +2 OCV with his signature attack, and that actually cost less than Flying Dodge.[/quote']

 

Flying Dodge lets you abort to automatic avoidance of any HtH attack, a better deal that Martial Block, which can fail, for only 1 more point. It does not let you attack first on your following phase, which evens it out a bit with MB. It gives+4 to DCV, almost as good as a true Martial Dodge. It also allows you to avoid any AOE attack that doesn't cover your full range of movement, with no chance of failure. With that kind of a defensive package, I'd say that it was worth more than +2 OCV, in the right campaign.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Flying Dodge too good?

 

If memory serves, I didn't buy Flying Dodge for Zl'f (my 43 DEX MA) until both Mentor and Blackjack had suggested I do so. So not only did I not originally float the idea but I didn't acquire it until after two of our campaign's GMs had actually encouraged it.

 

She's still never used it yet IIRC.

 

Maybe she should try it. With Zl'f's high SPD, she can aford to abort to a few Flying Dodges and DfCs, and still have phases left to attack.

 

Of course, Fred the Fat Security Guard will have a 10 or less chance of DfCing out of the way of Zl'f's hyper-speed punches, but that's comic books for ya.