Caliber - DC chart

[Glabutz]

Has any one wrote a caliber - DC equivalent chart ?

 

Or a XIXth century list of fireweapons ?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hmmm...not that I'm aware of, though several threads covering the subject dotted the old message boards.

 

Toadmaster and myself both have Energy to DC charts using JOULES as the measurement. Our charts are very similar as well, and after comparing, they tend to match up to the DC's in official books or are off by no more than 1DC. (except for those pesky Tank guns in the 5E and TUV)

 

I'll post my chart in a day or so if the green-one doesn't beat me to it...

[Bartman]

Well here is one I worked up last year. There is also another set of lists in old Digital Hero archives (from 2000 or 2001).

 

		TNT equivalent			
DC	Energy	Muzzle velocity	Point	1 Hex	Explosion	Notes
1	32 J	25 ft-lbs	-		1/32 lbs	
2	64 J	50 ft-lbs	-	0.001 lbs	1/16 lbs	
3	125 J	100 ft-lbs	-	1/500 lbs	1/8 lbs	
4	250 J	200 ft-lbs	-	1/250 lbs	1/4 lbs	
5	500 J	400 ft-lbs	-	1/125 lbs	1/2 lbs	
6	1 KJ	800 ft-lbs	-	1/64 lbs	1 lbs	
7	2 KJ	1.6K ft-lbs	-	1/32 lbs	2 lbs	
8	4 KJ	3.2 K ft-lbs	0.001 lbs	1/16 lbs	4 lbs	
9	8 KJ	6.4 K ft-lbs	1/500 lbs	1/8 lbs	8 lbs	
10	16 KJ	12.5 K ft-lbs	1/250 lbs	1/4 lbs	16 lbs	
11	32 KJ	25 K ft-lbs	1/125 lbs	1/2 lbs	32 lbs	
12	64 KJ	50 K ft-lbs	1/64 lbs	1 lbs	64 lbs	
13	125 KJ	100 K ft-lbs	1/32 lbs	2 lbs	125 lbs	
14	250 KJ	200 K ft-lbs	1/16 lbs	4 lbs	250 lbs	
15	500 KJ	400 K ft-lbs	1/8 lbs	8 lbs	500 lbs	
16	1 MJ	800 K ft-lbs	1/4 lbs	16 lbs	1 Tn	
17	2 MJ	1.6 M ft-lbs	1/2 lbs	32 lbs	2 Tn	
18	4 MJ	3.2 M ft-lbs	1 lbs	64 lbs	4 Tn	
19	8 MJ	6.4 M ft-lbs	2 lbs	125 lbs	8 Tn	
20	16 MJ	12.5 M ft-lbs	4 lbs	250 lbs	16 Tn	
21	32 MJ	25 M ft-lbs	8 lbs	500 lbs	32 Tn	
22	64 MJ	50 M ft-lbs	16 lbs	1 Tn	64 Tn	
23	125 MJ	100 M ft-lbs	32 lbs	2 Tn	125 Tn	
24	250 MJ	200 M ft-lbs	64 lbs	4 Tn	250 Tn	Minimum Yield Nuke
25	500 MJ	400 M ft-lbs	125 lbs	8 Tn	500 Tn	
26	1 GJ	800 M ft-lbs	250 lbs	16 Tn	1 KTn	
27	2 GJ	1.6 G ft-lbs	500 lbs	32 Tn	2 KTn	
28	4 GJ	3.2 G ft-lbs	1 Tn	64 Tn	4 KTn	
29	8 GJ	6.4 G ft-lbs	2 Tn	125 Tn	8 KTn	
30	16 GJ	12.5 G ft-lbs	4 Tn	250 Tn	16 KTn	Hiroshima/Nagasaki
33	125 GJ	100 G ft-lbs	32 Tn	2 KTn	125 KTn	Median US Nuke
39	8 TJ	6.4 T ft-lbs	2 KTn	125 KTn	8 MTn	Largest Current US Nuke
42	64 TJ	50 T ft-lbs	16 KTn	1 MTn	64 MTn	Tsar Bomba (Largest Historical Nuke)
107	2E33 J	1.6E33 ft-lbs	500 YTn	32E27 Tn	2E30 Tn	Min Planet Buster
124	250E36J	200E36 ft-lbs	64E30 Tn	4E33 Tn	250E33 Tn	Death Star
150	16E45 J	12.5E45 ft-lbs	4E39 Tn	250E39 Tn	16E42 Tn	SuperNova
211	1E66 J	25E63 ft-lbs	8E57 Tn	1E60 Tn	32E60 Tn	Big Bang

[Armitage]

Re: Caliber - DC chart

 

Originally posted by Glabutz

Has any one wrote a caliber - DC equivalent chart ?

 

From 4th Edition Dark Champions:

4.7mm 1d6-1

4.85mm 1 1/2d6

.22 1d6-1

5mm 2d6

.22 LR/5.7mm 1d6

.221 1 1/2d6

.223/5.56mm 2d6

.25 1d6

.30 1d6+1

.30-06 2d6+1

.32/7.65mm 1d6

.357 M 1 1/2d6

.38/.380 1d6

.40 1d6+1

.41 M 1 1/2d6

.308 2d6

.44 M 2d6

7.62mm 2d6+1

9mm 1d6+1

.45 1d6+1

.45 M 2d6

10mm 1 1/2d6

.454 2d6+1

11mm 2d6-1

.50/12.7mm 3d6

14.5mm 3d6+1

[Legendsmiths]

Just be aware that the Dark Champs chart mixes rifle and pistol calibers.

[Glabutz]

Yop, it loks quite incomplete.

 

Everything depends on what you call rifle and pistol caliber.

 

The HK MP 5 and a Beretta M92F or a Glok 19 use the same ammunition.

 

On the other hand, pistols use shorter ammo than hand guns, and this is what you mean, I guess.

 

So, even if this is incomplete, I think I can work something out with it, so thanks a lot.

[Toadmaster]

You might look at this thread also

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2267&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

Sorry Nusord but I beat you to the answer about a week before the question was posted

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Glabutz

Everything depends on what you call rifle and pistol caliber.

 

The HK MP 5 and a Beretta M92F or a Glok 19 use the same ammunition.

 

On the other hand, pistols use shorter ammo than hand guns, and this is what you mean, I guess.

The longer barrels on rifles provide considerably more energy to even the same round, so an HK MP5 could very plausibly do more damage than a Glock 19 even using the same ammunition.

 

Pistols are handguns. Did you mean rifles rather than hand guns?

[Legendsmiths]

The longer barrel on the MP5 isn't going to do much to the round. Longer barrels really don't help much unless they are rifled, causing the round to spin.

 

A round's damage potential is dependent on the weight of the round, the shape of the round, and the amount of propellant.

 

A pistol round contains far less propellant but generally has a heavier grain (weight) bullet than a rifle round. Most of a rifle round is propellant.

 

For example, a 9mm round generates 280 ft-lbs with a velocity of 1047 ft/sec using a 115 grain bullet.

 

A 7.62x39mm round generates 1180 ft-lbs with a velocity of 2062 ft/sec using a 125 grain bullet.

 

A .45 ACP generates 362 ft-lbs with a velocity of 939 ft/sec using a 185 grain bullet.

 

ft-lbs is probably your best indication of "DC", however the shape of the round plays a role, as does hydrostatic shock, and tumbling.

 

Bottom line is rifle rounds are 2-4x as powerful as the pistol round of the same caliber. This would equate to +1 or +2 DC. My comment was to clarify the chart that was posted had mixed the round types in by caliber without indicating which were rifle rounds and which weren't. Some people may have been confused by the .22/5.7mm that did 1d6 (a pistol round, and generous at that) and the .223/5.56mm which is a rifle round (as used in M4 or M16 among others). These are very different rounds of the same caliber (roughly .22), and I wanted to caution readers not to assume you could have a 5.56mm pistol using the same round as the M16 (this might be a bad example since a pistol was actually made but is extremely rare and not all that effective).

 

I think the chart is actually fairly accurate. I might bump the rifle rounds 1 DC.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by mudpyr8

The longer barrel on the MP5 isn't going to do much to the round. Longer barrels really don't help much unless they are rifled, causing the round to spin.

 

A round's damage potential is dependent on the weight of the round, the shape of the round, and the amount of propellant.

 

 

When a round is fired expanding gas pushes the bullet forward. This gas keeps on accelerating the bullet down the barrel. A longer barrel gives the bullet slightly more time to accelerate.

 

Longer Barrel = More Muzzle Velocity = More Damage

 

For Example take the Smith and Wesson Model 29 Revolver. It comes in various different Barrel Lengths (from 10.2 cm barrel to 29 cm barrel). All use the exact same bullet, with the same amount of propellant and all that but they have different Muzzle Energies due to different barrel lengths.

 

The 10.2 cm barrel will fire on average with a 425 m/s Velocity and an Energy of 1406J (1037 ft/lbs)

 

The 29 cm barrel will fire on average with a 475 m/s Velocity and an Energy of 1759J (1297 ft/lbs)

[Arthur]

I did the same thing, but I started at DC 1 as 50 J. I arrived at that after looking up KE values for every gun listed in Hero (all the ones I could find, anyway). At the time, I was working night shift at General Dynamics, and had access to a large library of Jane's books.

 

I wish I still had all my notes on that project. I still have most of them: I didn't keep my list of KE ratings. I did convert every single weapon in the then-current edition of GURPS High-Tech (A fantastic resource for weapons c.1400-1990).

[Tom]

Originally posted by mudpyr8

The longer barrel on the MP5 isn't going to do much to the round. Longer barrels really don't help much unless they are rifled, causing the round to spin.

 

<...snip...>

 

Uhm...

 

Since when did the MP5 not have a rifled barrel?

 

In terms of barrel length vs "power" the issue is how much time the propellant has to burn before the round exits the barrel.

[Legendsmiths]

Agreed (barrel length increasing power), but in a system where 1 DC represents a doubling of energy, the length of the barrel doesn't really have an effect. The 1700 vs. 1400J energy is only a 25% increase in energy which really doesn't impact the DC of the weapon.

 

So, my comments are centered around the effect of barrel length relative to DC.

 

I also agree with Arthur that GURPS High Tech is an excellent source for gun stats. The GURPS fire combat system is an excellent simulation of reality. Not always appropriate for a fast-paced cinematic cyberpunk firefight, but a really great way to benchmark weapons and their effects. It's one of the few systems I feel that realistically distinguishes pistols, rifles, shotguns (slug & shot), and automatic fire. Cinematic action is often challenging, however, as most people end up dead. Hence, why I am playing Hero.

[gewing]

I keep thinking about running a spreadsheet and a ballistics program to work out the damage class breaks for different cartridges at different ranges. Print them up as cards to go with the character sheets....

 

Gurps had 1/2 damage range, which was Ok, but...

 

My favorite parts of Gurps were the way encumbrance worked and the way melee damage actually increased significantly as strength did. It could easily get out of hand, but...

 

WHen the Ogre swings at you with a 2 handed sword, YOU REALLY DON't want to get hit.

 

If he uses a dagger, you MIGHt live...

[Arthur]

Originally posted by gewing

My favorite parts of Gurps were the way encumbrance worked and the way melee damage actually increased significantly as strength did. It could easily get out of hand, but...

 

GURPS is (or was) an awesome system. It is currently buried under so much cruft it is almost unrecognizable, but its basic structure is very sound - in the human to "just above human" range. It was originally designed mostly for low-tech fantasy-style combat.

 

After that, the linear nature of the damage system gets out of hand. It was really obvious in SF gaming: you either had enough armor to ignore the weapon, or you were toast. Probably realistic, but I could have written GURPS Ogre in two sentences:

 

"You see a bright light. Make a new character."

 

Hero is my favorite, since I like to have at least some super-powers in my gaming, but its logarithmic damage scale is a little TOO coarse. If I were redesigning the game from the ground up, I'd probably make every +2 DC a doubling of energy rather than +1 DC. Every 10 points of STR would double lifting capacity. STR damage would still be STR/5 d.

 

It works fine now for Normal damage. However, the way that Killing Damage is compressed by a factor of 3 causes some issues. In its original (Silver Age) incarnation, Killing Attacks were rare. Normal Attacks were called that for a reason - they were usually what you rolled. It never quite adapted to Iron Age style comics perfectly.

 

Oh, well, hindsight is always 20/20. I can just see the little guy on my shoulder telling me "Oh yeah? Let's see YOU design a better game from scratch!"

[gewing]

The doubling every 2 sounds about right to me too. OF course, many problems would be alleviated if Strength cost 2/1.

 

Originally posted by Arthur

GURPS is (or was) an awesome system. It is currently buried under so much cruft it is almost unrecognizable, but its basic structure is very sound - in the human to "just above human" range. It was originally designed mostly for low-tech fantasy-style combat.

 

After that, the linear nature of the damage system gets out of hand. It was really obvious in SF gaming: you either had enough armor to ignore the weapon, or you were toast. Probably realistic, but I could have written GURPS Ogre in two sentences:

 

"You see a bright light. Make a new character."

 

Hero is my favorite, since I like to have at least some super-powers in my gaming, but its logarithmic damage scale is a little TOO coarse. If I were redesigning the game from the ground up, I'd probably make every +2 DC a doubling of energy rather than +1 DC. Every 10 points of STR would double lifting capacity. STR damage would still be STR/5 d.

 

It works fine now for Normal damage. However, the way that Killing Damage is compressed by a factor of 3 causes some issues. In its original (Silver Age) incarnation, Killing Attacks were rare. Normal Attacks were called that for a reason - they were usually what you rolled. It never quite adapted to Iron Age style comics perfectly.

 

Oh, well, hindsight is always 20/20. I can just see the little guy on my shoulder telling me "Oh yeah? Let's see YOU design a better game from scratch!"

[Atros]

Although barrel length has little effect on muzzle velocity in most cases, it does really show up in things like snub-nose (2" barrel) revolvers, derringers, and SMGs chambered with rifle rounds. On these sorts of weapons, you can usually knock off a DC since so much of the expanding gas cloud is lost when the bullet leaves the barrel comparitively early.

 

(I did the calcs once upon a time, and now just run by that generality.)

[Toadmaster]

Barrel length does have a fairly significant impact on muzzle velocity, 9mm from a pistol is rated a class lower by the DOJ standards for body armor, fired from a SMG you need the next level of protection up, the typical 9mm pistol fires from a 4-5" barrel, most SMG's fire from an 8-12" barrel. These standards are based on actual live fire testing. Most SMG's run about 200fps faster than pistols.

 

Something else to consider is what barrel length the cartridge is designed for, using a cartridge such as the 5.56mm designed for a 20" barrel, in an 11" barrel results in a significant loss of performance and a huge muzzle blast caused by still burning gasses to exit the barrel. On the other end using a round like the .45ACP designed for pistols out of a rifle could result in little increase and in extreme cases could cause a loss of performance as the barrel begins creating drag on the bullet once the powder expands to its limit (this would generally only happen by using a cartridge like the .32 ACP in a 30" barrel) but is a factor in shotguns whose maximum effective length has dropped from 30"+ of the black powder days to about 26" in modern shotguns.

 

On the otherhand all of this is probably a bit much for HERO because of the scale, + or - a DC for extremes is probably all that is called for (pistol cartridge in a rifle or rifle cartridge in a pistol) also the more powerful cartridge DC's are so broad it would rarely come into effect (a .44 mag has so far before it crosses into the 2d6+1 range that it shouldn't get a bonus etc). It all depends on how detailed you want to get.

[Legendsmiths]

Agreed, relative to the DC scale in hero, barrel length has no effect. However, you can represent the effect of barrel length by giving a +1 vs. Range since the round has more velocity and may eek out a little more stability.

[AaronD]

Originally posted by Arthur

It works fine now for Normal damage. However, the way that Killing Damage is compressed by a factor of 3 causes some issues. In its original (Silver Age) incarnation, Killing Attacks were rare. Normal Attacks were called that for a reason - they were usually what you rolled. It never quite adapted to Iron Age style comics perfectly.

 

In my fantasy campaign, I used "normal" die rolling for killing attacks (1d per 5 pts, etc).

It worked out real well and was great for the hero-newbie. They only had to learn one way for punching and sword fighting. I'm suprised this isn't listed as a option*.

 

Aaron

 

*Assuming its not

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by gewing

The doubling every 2 sounds about right to me too. OF course, many problems would be alleviated if Strength cost 2/1.

 

I had a formula I was playing around with a few years back that used the square root of muzzle energy, it worked pretty well most current weapons up to 2d6 were pretty close, .50 cal moved up a DC to 3d6+1 and many of the magnum rifles were 2 1/2 to 3d6, funny how adding 1DC gave enough room to seperate the magnum rifles from each other, currently you get the lower end magnums like the .300 winchester falling in with the .30-06, and 7.62 NATO, the bulk falling into the 2 1/2d6 range and a few in the 3d6-1. Only problem I found was that since it was linear by the time you were getting into tanks you were giving out 12d6 attacks and 16" guns were something 100d6 world smashing attacks.

 

Anyway it would be nice to open the damage spread up a bit more than it is now. That is one area I prefer GURPS, you can actually differentiate fine variations such as .32 ACP from .380 ACP and 9mm Parabellum, not the small, medium large handgun feel I sometimes have with HERO.