5er Invisibility pwoblem.

[Alibear]

Okay here is my problem.

 

According to 5er

If I am invisible to sight and I use gestures they are invisible as my movements cannot be seen which sounds logical to me so far.

 

However if I am invisible to hearing and I use incantations, or any kind of speech for that matter I am audible.

 

Does this strike anyone else as being strange and contradictory? I would ask Steve but he never answers his logic behind his decisions about these type of questions other than hand waving and saying dramatic sense etc.

 

 

What think & say you collective Herodom brain?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

Viva Escotia!

 

I wouldn't worry too much. Gestures and incantations are a kind of specific type of restrainable, not a way to give away your position, in most cases, especially if the resulting power they are limiting is, say, a visible attack anyway. You get entangled, sound darkness fielded or whatever your powers don't work. No more illegal or unfair than having say restrainable wings if you are strength 60: what's going to hold you?

 

If you feel really guilty about it and you are already at the -.25 limitation level for each, put 'gestures and incantations' togather as a single limitation at -.25, but I wouldn't bother.

[Alibear]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

I'm not too worried about the powers per sé only that they don't seem to 'work' when they sit beside each other.

 

I would be happy if sight and sound worked the same if you see what I'm getting at?

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

I'm not too worried about the powers per sé only that they don't seem to 'work' when they sit beside each other.

 

I would be happy if sight and sound worked the same if you see what I'm getting at?

 

I hadn't appreciated the point, and I've gone and read incantations now, so I see what you mean. Mind you it doesn't say you have to be heard with normal hearing, does it?

 

I'd say the invisible to hearing counters the incantations effectively - unless an opponent can circumvent your invisibility he won't hear your incantations - but you are still incanting. The power is still limited as sound darkness, gagging, being underwater etc is still an effective way to stop the power - easily still worth the -.25 IMO.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

Technically, I suppose, you don't emit (internally generate) light, you just reflect it. So, if you're invisible, you fail to reflect the light. On the other hand, when you speak, you do actually emit sound. So, the invisibility doesn't hide it; you'd need darkness.

 

I think that's the theory, anyway. If you're carrying a flashlight while invisible, is the beam of light invisible?

 

Or, on the gestures/incantations bit, gestures are about being able to move, not being able to be seen. Incantations are (I suppose) about being able to be heard, not being able to physically move to make words. I guess.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

This was a doozy for me prior to 5th revised. Lets look at it logically.

1. Invisble to sight and gestures not seen=no problem. But if you were to talk you would be heard.

2. Invis to hearing group, can't be heard so cant incant.

 

Seems like a contradiction, but here is the caveat. Hearing is not a targeting sense. So from a playability standpoint you are not harming anything by being heard VOLUNTARILY by speaking. If someone could see invisible they would see you gesturing.

 

I do agree there is a slight contradiction, but you also pay more points to be invisible to teh sight group, hence more benefit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

By the same token if you could 'hear invisible' you'd hear the incanting, and incantations are about being able to move your jaw and form words so they are just as 'restrainable' as gestures. Depends how you play it, I suppose.

[Arkham]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

My personal hack at this would be from the other direction...

If you have incantations on a power and are either invisible to sound, or in a darkness to sound area, then your incantations power doesn't work.

[simplygnome]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

Well, I dont even have 5er yet and Ive already made a universal house rule - Thank you hero boards =P!

 

For me...Im not going to put logic behind it. Incants dont have to be heard, just said. Invisib. to hearing group makes you non-hearable...end of stoty. You buy incants and are invisible to hearing, then incants still work...Its still a form of restrainable if being gagged, underwater, etc...as previously mentioned.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

I'd just rule everything based on SFX. But in the case of a character that makes himself Invisible, then wants to use Powers with Gestures or Incantations, I'd rule the all negate each other. It's like trying to say you're performing your Gestures under your cloak, or whispering the Incantations. I wouldn't allow either of those.

 

Granted, it doesn't make much logical sense, but it's not about sense; it's about game balance.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

I'd just rule everything based on SFX. But in the case of a character that makes himself Invisible, then wants to use Powers with Gestures or Incantations, I'd rule the all negate each other. It's like trying to say you're performing your Gestures under your cloak, or whispering the Incantations. I wouldn't allow either of those.

 

Granted, it doesn't make much logical sense, but it's not about sense; it's about game balance.

 

Actually I think I'd rather everyone could see my frantic hand gestures in the open than have them notice me doing it under my cloak! At least you are not going to get arrested on public indecency charges!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

I'd just rule everything based on SFX. But in the case of a character that makes himself Invisible, then wants to use Powers with Gestures or Incantations, I'd rule the all negate each other. It's like trying to say you're performing your Gestures under your cloak, or whispering the Incantations. I wouldn't allow either of those.

 

Granted, it doesn't make much logical sense, but it's not about sense; it's about game balance.

 

I think your other two examples speak to the nature of the limitations. Incantations is a limitation only if they are obviously incantations, and they are loud. Incantations you can whisper aren't a limitation. Similarly, Gestures must be so broad that using your power in cramped quarters becomes difficult. That says to me they're not tiny hand motions readily hidden under a cloak.

 

Invisibilkity, on the other hand, hides the character. And he paid points for it (just as he saved poiints with Gestures and Incantations). As others have pointed out, this doesn't eliminate the drawbacks of Gest and Incant - a silence field, a Grab and an Entangle will all trigger one or the other.

 

In respoect of Incantations, since the character must make a sound (or Sound Darkness wouldn't stop them), I'm not convinced Invisibility to Sound works - he must choose to Incant, thereby making a noise, which noise cannot be "unhearable" by definition.

 

In the case of Gestures, he still makes them, even if he's invisible. The fact you can't see them is irrelevant. You couldn't see them if he wasbehind a wall either, and his power would still activate. The gestures CAN be seen by anyone who possesses an appropriate Sense, and the character still requires freedom of movement.

 

I could see a variable limitation ("he can whisper his incantations and/or hide his gestures, but then needs to replace them with some other limitation")

[MitchellS]

Re: 5er Invisibility pwoblem.

 

As Hugh Neilson pointed out the rule does make sense. I would just change incantations to restrainable by covering mouth.