Expanded Everyman Skill List

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

My girlfriend has a character that's only 13. She has Scholar and no college education. She's just smart and soaks up knowledge like a sponge. Think Hermione Granger from Harry Potter.

 

I don't view the Skill Enhancers something you learn or acquire at any level of education. You either have them or you don't, or pick them up out of necessity or get left behind by those who have.

 

Quite appropriate. Scholar and Scientist most properly belong either to the characters with an academic background, or to the intellectually brilliant self-taught ones. Everyone can build themselves an extensive liberal arts and/or scientific knowledge base if (s)he has sufficient time, dedication, willpower and brainpower and does sufficient reading. And everyone who has smarts AND exposure to academics gets them at dazzling speeds.

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I see your point in calling them everycharacter skills instead of everyman' date=' but even still, I don't hand out Disad points because a character concept doesn't have all the Everyman skills other characters have. So I'm playing a sentient ball of yarn. Even if I grew up in modern America and graduated high school, I still wouldn't have climbing or any kind of TF. That doesn't mean I get a Disad for that (though I would for not having any arms or legs, but that's different). It's just easier (and more fair, in my opinion) to put skills that a large number of people don't have, even if the majority does, in the realm of paid for points.[/quote']

 

The GM is perfectly free to allow, or not, Disadvs for a character not meeting the expected minimum cultural threshold, though I'd see quite justified allowing a Disadv for, say, being illiterate (probably both a Physical and Social Limitation, if known) in a modern setting, or for not having Computer proficiency in SF settings. Giving a Disadv for not having the expected minimum education base is indeed more questionable (though IIRC other RPG systems similar in philosophy to Hero, like GURPS, do). What I was saying is that if you don't have Everycharacter Skills, in the vast majority of cases, it's because of severe physiological, psychological or social background liabilities that ought to show up as Disdavantages.

 

Putting a Skill in the Everycharacter list, and making it free, is another question. When the overwhelming majority of people *that would be good potential raw material for a character* have a Skill, it's only proper to put them into the list, alongisede with canon ones. It's plain that a large number of real people may not have them, but as you point out, this is also true for many Skills on the canon Everyman list, though. But you cater to the lowest PC common denominator, not the population one. PC population has a large selection positive bias (e.g. shown from the fact that the Characteristic default isn't the population average default, but rather higher), b/c the sad losers with no signficant potential aren't character stuff.

 

 

 

The difference here is that anyone can argue. Anyone. That's all pursuasion is. Getting some else to agree with you, or do as you say. That's been going on since the dawn of man, and there's often nothing peaceful about it (though a skill pursuader, i.e. paid points for the full Skill, might pull it off).

 

Same thing with acting... everyone can act, or try to. Most of us pull it off. Try smiling when you're not happy. Make a face in the mirror. Scream melodramatically when your brother shoves past you so mother punishes him for it.

 

With Seduction, it's all about being liked or trusted without actually being likable or trustworthy. Anyone who actually is likable or trustworthy can accomplish this without the skill for the most part, and that's what everyone has.

 

Everyone may try to persuade someone else of a point, lie, or feign an emotion. Having a Familiarity means you have the ability, albeit limited, to do it *effectively*. Putting Persuasion and Acting in the list means every character has the ability to persuade effectively, to a degree. You may argue this is appropriate, or not. Myself I see a valid point for swinging both ways. What I am heartily arguing is that if make the assumption that every Hero character sghould have a limited ability to persuade someone esle effeticevely, on the same basis they ought to have the ability to make themselves likable or trusted without actually being neither. Because the two abilities are very strongly linked, psychologically, and the people who have them generally have them both, and the people who lack them dramatically, below the population norm, generally lack them both.

 

Being liked and trusted when you are likable and trustworthy (seductive without need of Seduction) is just the same of being persuasive when you have a valid point (persuasive without need of Persuasion) or showing an emotion when you actually feel it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Putting a Skill in the Everycharacter list' date=' and making it free, is another question. When the overwhelming majority of people *that would be good potential raw material for a character* have a Skill, it's only proper to put them into the list, alongisede with canon ones. It's plain that a large number of real people may not have them, but as you point out, this is also true for many Skills on the canon Everyman list, though. But you cater to the lowest PC common denominator, not the population one. PC population has a large selection positive bias (e.g. shown from the fact that the Characteristic default isn't the population average default, but rather higher), b/c the sad losers with no signficant potential aren't character stuff. [/quote']I just don't do it that way. PCs are the creme of the crop in the campaign world when I GM, yes, but they don't get that status for free, and it doesn't include a minimum level education to be a hero (or villain).

 

Everyone may try to persuade someone else of a point, lie, or feign an emotion. Having a Familiarity means you have the ability, albeit limited, to do it *effectively*. Putting Persuasion and Acting in the list means every character has the ability to persuade effectively, to a degree. You may argue this is appropriate, or not. Myself I see a valid point for swinging both ways. What I am heartily arguing is that if make the assumption that every Hero character sghould have a limited ability to persuade someone esle effeticevely, on the same basis they ought to have the ability to make themselves likable or trusted without actually being neither. Because the two abilities are very strongly linked, psychologically, and the people who have them generally have them both, and the people who lack them dramatically, below the population norm, generally lack them both.

 

Being liked and trusted when you are likable and trustworthy (seductive without need of Seduction) is just the same of being persuasive when you have a valid point (persuasive without need of Persuasion) or showing an emotion when you actually feel it.

True, but a person without a valid point can still make it, whereas if a person who just isn't likeable or trustworthy has no chance.

[Mike W]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I can see adding Sys Ops 8- as an everyman skill to cover sending email, doing basic spreadsheets, installing printers, etc. But few people can actually write programs. It's a totally different skill. It's kind of like the difference between being able to drive a car and keep the fluids filled as opposed to being able to rebuild the engine.

 

I don't think any KS should be given for "general education" things at either the high school or college level(especially since most college general ed is essentially high school over again, but faster). Also, the person playing the game probably has as good of a high school education than the character. So if the player can remember the info, then the character can too. Maybe give them an INT roll if they're having trouble. Then too, how much of your high school education can you actually remember? Quick: What year was Gettysburg fought? How do you diagram the following sentence: "I remember the cabin and the hill it sat on." and while you're at it draw a line down the exact middle of the hero logo and then prove which angles are congruent.

We all had to know this stuff in school, but I would bet that less than half the people on this forum could do it now. Not because we aren't smart enough to do it, but because we haven't needed to do it in so long that we have forgotten.

 

College - you get a straight roll in your major/majors and a familiarity in your minor. Bonuses to the roll if you have a grad degree.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Then too' date=' how much of your high school education can you actually remember? Quick: What year was Gettysburg fought? How do you diagram the following sentence: "I remember the cabin and the hill it sat on." and while you're at it draw a line down the exact middle of the hero logo and then prove which angles are congruent.[/quote']The scarry thing is, I can't remember the first two, but...

 

Unfortunately, you can't prove which angles are congruent without drawing far too many line across it. But at least its been bisected for you.

[Mike W]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Right, but you have enough information that you can work out which angles are congruent...if you can remember how.

[Kristopher]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

In HERO, how do you deal with someone who isn't "academically educated" in any one subject, but reads a lot, watches a lot of "boring documentary TV", and retains a great deal of it? It's hard, because, well, using myself as an example, I know that there's a tremendous amount I don't know off the top of my head, but people at work, for example, routinely react to me as if I'm some kind of walking encyclopedia, and I'm very good at looking things up to refresh my memory, as far as I can tell.

[Mike W]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Eiditic memory with a skill roll based on INT. The more you make the roll by the more precisely you can remember the information...of course, this doesn't mean you can apply it to another situation...that would require other skills and/or more rolls. But it would let you remember it.

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

My girlfriend has a character that's only 13. She has Scholar and no college education. She's just smart and soaks up knowledge like a sponge. Think Hermione Granger from Harry Potter.

 

I don't view the Skill Enhancers something you learn or acquire at any level of education. You either have them or you don't, or pick them up out of necessity or get left behind by those who have.

Cool!

 

That makes sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Right' date=' but you have enough information that you can work out which angles are congruent...if you can remember how.[/quote']

I remember how, and I know that it will clutter up the logo too much if I do it all on the same image. There are actually a number of ways to do it, and all of them involve a compass and a straight edge (or a protractor, but that's cheeting).

[Mike W]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Dust Raven, I wasn't implying that you didn't know how to do it, or at least not intending to. For some reason, I just thought I needed to clarify/confirm that there was enough information for those who could. Although, I'm not sure I could work out all the steps myself, since I, like so many others, never use it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Dust Raven' date=' I wasn't implying that you didn't know how to do it, or at least not intending to. For some reason, I just thought I needed to clarify/confirm that there was enough information for those who could. Although, I'm not sure I could work out all the steps myself, since I, like so many others, never use it.[/quote']

That's okay. I didn't figure you were. I just like to show off my math skills. My geometry teacher would be so proud! I even remember Pythagreum's Theorum (even though I can't seem to remember how to spell the guy's name).

[Mike W]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Actually, it's the Pythagorean theorem. The scholar was Pythagoras.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

As far as the "general knowledge from modern education" question goes, I think maybe the easiest way to handle it (as long as your character doesn't have a radically differeent educational background from you, the player) is to break character for a few seconds and use a little player knowledge. If your education is roughly similar to your character's just figure that if you know the answer your character probably would as well.

 

If your character is vastly undereducated, he/she probably wouldn't know a lot of things, and thus the mechanic is likely unnecessary. If he's highly overeducated (PhD's, etc), the "general knowledge" might be a bit higher, but advanced degrees are often very tight and thus may not contribute a whole lot to "general knowlege".

 

The "highly different educational background" isn't necessarily restricted to pure education. Several years of actually living can give people the "general knowledge" that people can get from a modern education too.

 

Kelcyron

[Ehreval]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I think maybe the easiest way to handle it (as long as your character doesn't have a radically differeent educational background from you' date=' the player) is to break character for a few seconds and use a little player knowledge. [/quote']

 

I wouldn't even consider it "breaking character" to use general player knowledge unless, as you noted, the player and character have significantly different backgrounds. I see no reason that my pc should know the capital of New Hampshire when I don't, and I see no reason he shouldn't know the capital of Hawaii when I do.

 

If the education gap is significant, he'll either have things on his character sheet that aren't on mine, like KS or PS skills, or I'll have something on my resume that isn't on his, like a B.S. in Education, and then we've left the realm of general knowledge.

 

Of course, if there's a dispute about what a character might reasonably know as general knowledge, the gm should just make a quick judgment call. After all, that's why we have gm's. Either way, a well-defined background for the character, including things like past hobbies, ethnic origin and the like should give you -- and the gm -- a good guideline in case of disagreement.

 

Ehreval

[Ehreval]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

In HERO' date=' how do you deal with someone who isn't "academically educated" in any one subject, but reads a lot, watches a lot of "boring documentary TV", and retains a great deal of it? It's hard, because, well, using myself as an example, I know that there's a tremendous amount I don't know off the top of my head, but people at work, for example, routinely react to me as if I'm some kind of walking encyclopedia, and I'm very good at looking things up to refresh my memory, as far as I can tell.[/quote']

 

How about "KS: Trivia"? You know a lot of random things, but don't have a lot of depth in any given subject, unless it's one you've been hooked on recently. For the one that you're currently grooving on, I'd suggest to a player of mine that he take "KS: X" that he can only switch during his character's downtime.

 

-- Ehreval

[kloster]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

As far as the "general knowledge from modern education" question goes, I think maybe the easiest way to handle it (as long as your character doesn't have a radically differeent educational background from you, the player) is to break character for a few seconds and use a little player knowledge. If your education is roughly similar to your character's just figure that if you know the answer your character probably would as well.

 

If your character is vastly undereducated, he/she probably wouldn't know a lot of things, and thus the mechanic is likely unnecessary. If he's highly overeducated (PhD's, etc), the "general knowledge" might be a bit higher, but advanced degrees are often very tight and thus may not contribute a whole lot to "general knowlege".

 

The "highly different educational background" isn't necessarily restricted to pure education. Several years of actually living can give people the "general knowledge" that people can get from a modern education too.

 

Kelcyron

 

 

 

Hello,

 

For me, the problem comes from the fact that 'modern education' varies deeply based upon where you live and where you have been educated.

I 've been raised in France, and live in Switzerland, and my closest worker is a german raised englishman. We have a completely different set of general knowledge, even if both working with computers after a degree in electrical working.

 

If we stay with 'Everyman skill is a skill possessed by Every person', the list should be reduced. I personnaly favor a list adapted to the background of the character.

 

Kloster

[Kristopher]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

How about "KS: Trivia"? You know a lot of random things, but don't have a lot of depth in any given subject, unless it's one you've been hooked on recently. For the one that you're currently grooving on, I'd suggest to a player of mine that he take "KS: X" that he can only switch during his character's downtime.

 

The problem, for me, is that I'll often surprise myself with in-depth knowledge about something random.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

The problem' date=' for me, is that I'll often surprise myself with in-depth knowledge about something random.[/quote']

Going back on my Harry Potter reference, you could always buy a KS: [source material], with the source material being whatever you've been reading/watching. For example, Ms. Granger would obviously have KS: Hogwart's - A History (most likely based on INT with a few levels). Not a KS for Hogwarts, but for the book. She'll know about when it was built, by whom and why, who the most prominent headmasters were and lots of other trivial information, but can still get lost in the halls and be surprised to find out who the star Seeker for Griffendor was 20 years ago. Same thing can be applied for "skills" acquired from watching the Discovery (or Nature, or whatever) Channel.

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I am wondering if something like:

 

KS: High School Graduate Competency 8-

 

Then pick specific areas to suit the character.

 

SS skills obviously should be a bit more specific.

[JmOz]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Try this one: a KS at Int called "General Knowledge" this is what you can expect an average person to know (Such as that Calvin Klein is a Fashion Designer and recognising some of his more mainstream stuff)

 

Also I ahve added Combat Driving on an 8- but removed TF (You get one free for Combat Driving)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Try this one: a KS at Int called "General Knowledge" this is what you can expect an average person to know (Such as that Calvin Klein is a Fashion Designer and recognising some of his more mainstream stuff)

 

Also I ahve added Combat Driving on an 8- but removed TF (You get one free for Combat Driving)

 

I've often handles "general" knowledge as an everyman skill, based on INT, and nothing more. It can't be increased, upgraded, bought up or otherwise improved except by buying more INT. After all, it just represents random bits of information the character has come across, not anything he has researches or studied with the intention of retaining. I include most general education (K-12) in this. If a character actually wants more "general" information about the world around him, I recomend KS: Trivia.

 

As for Combat Driving, you automatically get an 8- roll when you buy the TF (or a Riding 8- for an animal). Technically Combat Driving (or Piloting) only costs 2 points.

[Jhamin]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Try this one: a KS at Int called "General Knowledge" this is what you can expect an average person to know (Such as that Calvin Klein is a Fashion Designer and recognising some of his more mainstream stuff)

 

So, in other words a straight Int roll?

 

as in

 

Character: "Calvin Klein, I've heard that name...."

GM: "Make an Int roll"

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

It seems to me that a KS: Culture would work as well. One can attempt to answers questions that one born and raised in that region should know the answers to.

 

There could be a huge variety of basic questions one could try to answer.

 

Examples:

 

Do you know how to use the internet?

Do you know how to change a tire?

What is H2O?

Can you identify parts of the cardiovascular system in this display?

Do you know how to shoot a gun?

 

etc.