Expanded Everyman Skill List

[Wanderer]

Assuming a modern (Champions, Dark Champions) character had normal socialization (and no seriously crippling character defects that would harm social interaction) and schooling (High School level) and actually payed some real attention in class (or had above-average intelligence and soaked them just by exposure) in a decent school, what Skills would you assume (s)he would have, in any case, above and beyond the canon Everyman list (whether the character should get them free, or pay 1 CP for the familiarity is a secondary issue, for now)

 

I was thinking of:

 

Computer Programming 8-

KS: History 8-

KS: Literature 8-

Oratory 8-

Seduction 8-

SS: Biology 8-

SS: Chemistry 8-

SS: Mathematics 8-

SS: Physics 8-

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I'd cut all the Science Skills. I don't think friction, intertia and gravity count as physics. I think force/weight ratios in fulcrums are physics. A lower level skill doesn't mean you know simpler facts about something, it means you're less likely to know any given fact. There's a difference between "How the World Works" and "Physics".

 

I also think Oratory and Seduction shouldn't be there. There are plenty of people out there who are annoying, cantankerous, obnoxious and generally unlikeable, and completely incapable of convincing someone of a point.

 

Plenty of people graduate from lousy highschools and barely know who Shakespeare is, much less have a fair chance at knowing anything about Literature. And something like 1 in 10 high school students can't point out the US on a map. I think there should be a KS: Current Events 8- and a KS: Pop Culture 8-.

 

And remember, Everyman Skills apply to EVERYBODY. Maybe in a hundred years Computers will be Everyman Skills, but right now, my mother uses two hands to drive a mouse.

 

But I repped you anyway.

[Jhamin]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

When it comes to Computers, I think we are really on the verge of Computer Operations being an everyman skill.

If you are 35+ you may have paid a point for that 8-, but it's getting increasingly hard to find a 17 year old who can't send an email.

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I'd cut all the Science Skills. I don't think friction' date=' intertia and gravity count as physics. I think force/weight ratios in fulcrums are physics. A lower level skill doesn't mean you know simpler facts about something, it means you're less likely to know any given fact. There's a difference between "How the World Works" and "Physics". [/quote']

 

Hmm, maybe I gave a misleading title to the thread. We are assuming someone that payed attention (or had such brains that he learned by exposure) in Science classes, in a decent school.

 

I also think Oratory and Seduction shouldn't be there. There are plenty of people out there who are annoying, cantankerous, obnoxious and generally unlikeable, and completely incapable of convincing someone of a point.

 

Good point. Let's add "no character defects seriously crippling social interaction" (that would likely show up as Limitations, otherwise, anyway) to the prerequisites.

 

Plenty of people graduate from lousy highschools and barely know who Shakespeare is, much less have a fair chance at knowing anything about Literature. And something like 1 in 10 high school students can't point out the US on a map. I think there should be a KS: Current Events 8- and a KS: Pop Culture 8-.

 

Another good point. Let's add "and went to a decent school (or was a good reader)". You're right for the Current Events and Pop Culture KS. They should be part of the list.

 

And remember, Everyman Skills apply to EVERYBODY. Maybe in a hundred years Computers will be Everyman Skills, but right now, my mother uses two hands to drive a mouse.

 

Yeah, I made another unrecognized assumption. Let's say "for a character 40- years old".

[Eodin]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Assuming a modern (Champions, Dark Champions) character had normal socialization (and no seriously crippling character defects that would harm social interaction) and schooling (High School level) and actually payed some real attention in class (or had above-average intelligence and soaked them just by exposure) in a decent school, what Skills would you assume (s)he would have, in any case, above and beyond the canon Everyman list (whether the character should get them free, or pay 1 CP for the familiarity is a secondary issue, for now)

 

I was thinking of:

 

Computer Programming 8-

KS: History 8-

KS: Literature 8-

Oratory 8-

Seduction 8-

SS: Biology 8-

SS: Chemistry 8-

SS: Mathematics 8-

SS: Physics 8-

I'd be more specific in the case of Modern Everyman Skills, such as

Computer Literacy 8- (using computers, not writing applications)

Seduction 8- (all the sexy ads on TV today)

SS: Basic Math 8- (Elementary School math, as opposed to Algebra and Geometry)

SS: Elementary Physical Sciences 8- (Basic HS physics 101, chemistry 101)

SS: Basic Biology 8- (Basic Middle School Biology)

 

Remember too that Everyman skills are usually cultural and regional, so

Modern Everyman Skills would be a different list than Modern Punk EveryKid Skills, which would include Computer Programming 8- and KS: Pop Culture/Outcast Culture 8-, etc.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Hmm, maybe I gave a misleading title to the thread. We are assuming someone that payed attention (or had such brains that he learned by exposure) in Science classes, in a decent school.

 

/me fails EGO roll, must make the obvious joke

 

/humor on

So, why are you calling them Everyman skills? That assumption applies to what, 5% of the population?

/humor off

 

For "Computer Programming", I disagree strongly. Systems Operation 8- I can see, though, because it is the ability to operate systems that is becoming more commonplace. As proof, I offer the wide percentage of VCRs, microwaves etc that are flashing 12:00... People are getting better at using the systems but that is a very different thing from programming them. I suppose at its core this one is a matter of definition.

 

Seduction I've heard some arguments for, but personally I disagree. If I've got this at *any* level it's news to me... This one would be a matter of taste, however.

 

The main argument for Oratory is the same one for Seduction -- that everyone has some degree of skill in the interaction category. Frankly, I believe real life counters Oratory as well; I've been in one too many business meetings with speakers that had no clue how to get their point across. In Oratory's case in particular, I'd say the widespread fear of public speaking works against this as well.

[nexus]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I think the list is a good start, but given the breadth of Hero Skills maybe a little long.

 

KS:High School Education 8-

 

Might sum up the science skills. Really, even an 8- on Physics and Chemistry is too much for allot of people. You'd have a slim chance of say Macguyering up some low grade explosives, most people have none. This skill would be basic, commonly known facts that the gm thinks you can't just know.

 

Oratory and Seduction? I don't think those belong there. Picking up someone in a bar doesn't require Seduction if there interested in you already. Seduction is making them interested and Com and Role playing can do that. Seduction is being able to, well, seducce even the unwilling and I don't think thats common enough of an ability to be an Everyman skill.

 

Oratory

 

Studies show many people are terrified of public speaking. Few can do it well enough to sway a crowd that isn't worked up (ususally by a skill speaker) to begin with. Most of the times you see this is the crowd is already moving in that direction or its basically a Pre Attack sort of thing (LETS GET 'EM!) But I'll admit the difference between Pre attacks and uses of Pre based skills, particularly Oratory is a little hazy in Hero.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I use Everyman Skills as something that applies to Everybody. That's my GM style. I don't see a purpose for making different Everyman Skill lists for different parts of the world. If I want to create a Champion from Nigeria, then I'd have to pay a point for Computer Literacy that someone from New York gets for free. I know it's unfair, but I like to GM that unless every person in my campaign has it, it's not Everyman.

 

I don't care where you come from, if you're human you have Acting 8- (which I interpret as the ability to lie). You have Deduction 8- (we're able to solve very simple problems, like who stole the cookies from the cookie jar (I said WHO STOLE THE COOKIES FROM THE COOKIE JAR!). We all have an Area Knowledge of wherever we're from. Not every person in the world even has basic sciences. With Champions Worldwide coming out in a few months, I don't think it's fair to assume everyone has had access to a computer.

 

I think a Modern Every American Normal Youth Skill List would include those things, but not an Everyman Skill List, not as I see it.

 

Not being contrary, just voicing my opinion. Which is contrary.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Assuming a modern (Champions, Dark Champions) character had normal socialization (and no seriously crippling character defects that would harm social interaction) and schooling (High School level) and actually payed some real attention in class (or had above-average intelligence and soaked them just by exposure) in a decent school, what Skills would you assume (s)he would have, in any case, above and beyond the canon Everyman list (whether the character should get them free, or pay 1 CP for the familiarity is a secondary issue, for now)

 

I was thinking of:

 

Computer Programming 8-

KS: History 8-

KS: Literature 8-

Oratory 8-

Seduction 8-

SS: Biology 8-

SS: Chemistry 8-

SS: Mathematics 8-

SS: Physics 8-

 

 

Honestly, I'd probably add "KS: General Education" and call it a day. I'm in agreement that the above list might be too advanced for "Everyman". Even so, not every culture is going to have "General Education". Think of all the things you have a passing familiarity with and then consider whether or not you honestly think it's worth an 8-.

 

For example, an 8- in math would still give a person a chance to know algebra or even trigonometry. Heck, under the right circumstances rolling a "3" might give a drop-out a chance to solve Pi.

 

By the same token, I have a passing familiarity with computer programming because of my job and training, but I still wouldn't even consider putting me over 11- (and possibly less, if some of my coworkers are to be believed). The "Computer Programming" you give above might be better represented by limiting it to "KS: Computer Usage".

 

My point being that in some cases you're just going to have to use common sense in determining what sort of knowledge a person could reasonably expect to have and not try and attach a number to it. There are countless examples of people going through the system and not picking up one useful iota of information.

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Again, I realize I gave a very misleading title to the thread. Too bad you can't edit it my fault. it should have been something like:

 

Modern First World Youth Everyman Skill

 

which nonetheless would still cover 80-90% of typical Champions/Dark Champions characters (barring exotic concepts like aliens, centuries-old immortals, etc.)

 

Following your comments, I think we can amend it:

 

Canon Modern Everyman Skills, plus:

 

Computer Operation 8-

KS: Basic Humanities 8- (High School History, Literature, etc.)

KS: Current Events 8- (this maybe might be incorporated in Humanities)

KS: Pop Culture 8-

SS: Basic Sciences 8- (High School Chemistry, Math, Biology, etc.)

Seduction 8-

 

I am aware of the arguments against Seduction, and ithey have some validity, since ndeed some people have character defects that don't let them have the normal ability to build a friendly relationship (which seduction covers; it is not just the ability to make someone romantically interested, despite the misleading name). However, in my experience such defects are generally the effect of serious personality disorders or mental disorder disabilities that in most cases also seriously impair the ability to persuade others to your POV, effectively feign an emotion, and the like. Extremely sectiorial social skill deficits that seriously impair the ability to develop a friendly or romantic relationship while keeping the ability to effectively lie, persuade, debate, intimidate, get your point across, etc. are rare. Generally they are more across the board. So either one shouldn't have familiarity in Acting and Persuasion either, or he should have Seduction as an Everyman famililiarity as well.

[nexus]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Actually, my argument against Seduction is more that I don't think Seduction skill is required to make normal freindships under typical condition. For lack of a better its the skill to cultivate "false" friendships/romantic interest to get somene to do something you want. Sort of Persuasion, but more manipulative. I would actually be more inclinded to give Persuasion as an Everyman skill to normal humans. Anyone can debate, bargin, wheedle and whine to get their way. Not everyone (IMO) can manipulate someone into thinking their willing to do something out of "friendship". The difference is -very- hazy though, in the current rules so I can see where you''re coming from, Wanderer (This is another reason I would buy The Ultimate Skill in a heartbeat). If your familiar with White Wolf's Storyteller system, it seems a little like the difference between Charisma and Manipulation (Again IMO) in that both skills really overlap with the difference almost merely a sfx (Maybe in Sixth they should be combined into a single Pre Skill called "Convince" but that's a topic for another thread).

 

In any event I think your revised Everyman skill list looks pretty good. I've wondered personally about "General Education" type skills.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Since it's been ammended, I won't comment on your first list.

 

Canon Modern Everyman Skills, plus:

 

Computer Operation 8-

KS: Basic Humanities 8- (High School History, Literature, etc.)

KS: Current Events 8- (this maybe might be incorporated in Humanities)

KS: Pop Culture 8-

SS: Basic Sciences 8- (High School Chemistry, Math, Biology, etc.)

Seduction 8-

I still think this is too much. I was once a member of the "Modern First World Youth" (sounds like a club for rich white people actually...) and I attended what might be called a decent school (by America's standards, as well as Arizona's, at the time). At the time, I couldn't tell you a thing about history unless there was a test on it that week, and current events were things like "there's a test in history this week" and "hey, kid! stop staring at my girlfriend!". Pop Culture came in so many different flavors I couldn't count them, and I certainly wasn't part of all of them. Sciences were a different matter, as I ate that stuff up like any given nerd. But there's a difference between any given nerd and everyone else (which I can conform, as I tutored the rest of my class in these subjects).

 

None of these are even close to Everyman, even at that level.

 

I am aware of the arguments against Seduction, and ithey have some validity, since ndeed some people have character defects that don't let them have the normal ability to build a friendly relationship (which seduction covers; it is not just the ability to make someone romantically interested, despite the misleading name). However, in my experience such defects are generally the effect of serious personality disorders or mental disorder disabilities that in most cases also seriously impair the ability to persuade others to your POV, effectively feign an emotion, and the like. Extremely sectiorial social skill deficits that seriously impair the ability to develop a friendly or romantic relationship while keeping the ability to effectively lie, persuade, debate, intimidate, get your point across, etc. are rare. Generally they are more across the board. So either one shouldn't have familiarity in Acting and Persuasion either, or he should have Seduction as an Everyman famililiarity as well.

I don't think Seduction is uses to have a friendly relationship. Perhaps a manipulative relationship, but certainanly not a friendly one. Seduction is the ability to gain someone's trust or affection (or generally be liked) despite your negative character traits (as perceived by the other person). If two people just click, they click. If they don't, only time, or a Seduction Roll, can change things. It doesn't make sense that Everyone should be able to make that roll, it's just not realistic.

 

Besides, the world's not a friendly place, and neither are the people who live in it. Take a look and the world's (or even just the modern first world's) history over the past 100 years and tell me if people look friendly enough to warrent Seduction as an Everyman Skill.

 

P.S.: Sorry if I seem a bit hostile, I definately don't intend it. I actually like what you're doing, I just don't think it's necessary or applicable. Perhaps different lists for different subcultures within an area would work better...

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

 

I still think this is too much. I was once a member of the "Modern First World Youth" (sounds like a club for rich white people actually...) and I attended what might be called a decent school (by America's standards, as well as Arizona's, at the time). At the time, I couldn't tell you a thing about history unless there was a test on it that week, and current events were things like "there's a test in history this week" and "hey, kid! stop staring at my girlfriend!". Pop Culture came in so many different flavors I couldn't count them, and I certainly wasn't part of all of them. Sciences were a different matter, as I ate that stuff up like any given nerd. But there's a difference between any given nerd and everyone else (which I can conform, as I tutored the rest of my class in these subjects).

 

None of these are even close to Everyman, even at that level.

 

I see your point, but please note that the "Everyman" skill set is actually an "Everycharacter" list, i.e. a set of abilities that all or the overwhelming majority of characters in modern Hero games, such as Champions and Dark Champions, are most likely to have. Character stuff poeple in such settings(actually, in all RPG settings) are in almost all cases distinctly above the population lower common denominator, folks with above-average potential, including in most cases intelligence, willpower and learning ability. Given these assumptions, i think it is reasonable to tweak things abit towards the high part of the learning curve. In RL, I am well aware that are plenty of people that manage to exit school retaining but a nonexistent part of the curriculum (one of the main things that gives me serious considerations about the wisdom of keeping an unbiased, fair literacy/basic general education test for voting), but I think that to simulate the kind of people that make the population of RPG characters, the realy bad drop-outs and functional barely literates do not need to be covered, except in special cases (best marked as such by a Limitation). Besides, we are discussing Familiarity Skills, not full-fledged Skills. I think that those who do not manage to retain and assimilate even that minumal part of the curriculum represented by a Familiarity in basic knowledge skill aren't "everycharacter". And nerds are typical character stuff, in comics and movies

 

 

don't think Seduction is uses to have a friendly relationship. Perhaps a manipulative relationship, but certainanly not a friendly one. Seduction is the ability to gain someone's trust or affection (or generally be liked) despite your negative character traits (as perceived by the other person). If two people just click, they click. If they don't, only time, or a Seduction Roll, can change things. It doesn't make sense that Everyone should be able to make that roll, it's just not realistic.

 

I see your point, and I might agree with it, but, please note, you might make almost the same argument against the ability to win someone to your POV by verbal and non-verbal manipulation, despite your negative character traits (Persuasion, and to alesser degree, Acting). This way, you might justify not making Seduction an "Everycharacter" skill, but you should also strike Persuasion (and Acting) from the selfsame list.

 

Besides, the world's not a friendly place, and neither are the people who live in it. Take a look and the world's (or even just the modern first world's) history over the past 100 years and tell me if people look friendly enough to warrent Seduction as an Everyman Skill.

 

Point taken, and it has some merit, but again, you ought to extend the same argument to Persuasion (ie. diplomacy and settling a dispute by peaceful discussion).

[Saxondog]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Everyman skills should be from a list where you get X number of this list at 8- for free. A jock or cheerleader might get seduction but a different sort would have KS:comics, games or some science skill in it's place.

 

Situational everyman skills: A woman who gre up in the 50s would have cooking but one who gre up in the 90s might not. Might have KS:auto mechanics or KS: pro-sports instead. There are plenty of people in major metropolitan areas who have little or no experience driving but have other skills in their place.

 

I agree that computer programming is not an everyman skill. Almost everyone I know can send email. From 5 to 60 it can be done but 90% of these people wouldn't be able to recognize code if it bit them. KS: Highschool education at 8- or higher works well. Maybe split between KS: Highschool sciences and KS:Highschool liberal arts. That allows academics who can't recognize a sonet and wanna-be writers who flunked chemistry.

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Help me to the next step:

 

If we start at KS: General Education..or call it High School Education. What would a college education mean? Would one be able to go beyond 8-? For example: if one had a Bachelors Degree in say, Psychology; would they have KS: Psychology 11-? BUT in no other Science?

[McCoy]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Would agree with seduction, most people do manage to loose their virginity in high school.

 

Seems like high school graduate in 21st century America would also have a familiarity with bicycles and automobiles.

[nexus]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Would agree with seduction, most people do manage to loose their virginity in high school.

.

 

But does it really take much "skill" get a teenager to have sex? Or just time and opportunity?

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Would agree with seduction, most people do manage to loose their virginity in high school.

 

Seems like high school graduate in 21st century America would also have a familiarity with bicycles and automobiles.

And Skateboards.

 

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

Help me to the next step:

 

If we start at KS: General Education..or call it High School Education. What would a college education mean? Would one be able to go beyond 8-? For example: if one had a Bachelors Degree in say, Psychology; would they have KS: Psychology 11-? BUT in no other Science?

 

College education is the level where one definitely moves beyond familiarities and gets full-fledged proficiency in a constellation of Skills (generally Knowledge, Science, Professional and Intellect Skills relevant to one's course). To use an example more familiar to me, getting an M.D. would mean gaining, say, 13- in Paramedics, PS: General Practitioner, PS: Specialty, SS: Medicine, SS: Pharmacology, and, depending on one's specialty, SS: Psychology, SS: Surgery, or Forensic Medicine, 12- in SS: Anatomy, Human Biology, Biochemistry, Biophysics, Genetics, Microbiology, 11- in Computer Operation, Deduction. If you wish to get rather good (and successful) at clinical practice, you must also develop your Interaction Skills: say 11- in Conversation (getting good clinical histories), Persuasion (getting people to follow your prescriptions), Seduction (learn to give a friendly impression to patients), Oratory 8- (giving lectures). Intensive college study might earn you Cramming.

[Gadodel]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

So, a Degree would mean that the character should have the Scholar aspect?

 

Whereas, someone with just a High School ed wouldn't have 'Scholar' necessarily..

[Sean Waters]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

You could get away with KS: modern stuff 8-.

 

Never underestimate the stupidity of average Jane and average Joe.

 

Maths? Driving? Seduction??????????????

 

I mean, do you really need a skill to buy beer?

[Wanderer]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

So, a Degree would mean that the character should have the Scholar aspect?

 

Whereas, someone with just a High School ed wouldn't have 'Scholar' necessarily..

 

Yeah, a College Degree would in most cases justify getting Scholar and/or Scientist; actually, that kind of education would be the typical justification for having either, or both. That, or 15/20 in both Int and Ego, a strong psychological drive (Psych Lim ?) to self-teaching and self-improvement, and voracious reading ( Eidetic Memory ? Cramming ? Speed Reading ?).

[Wanderer]

Yeah, I was mostly thinking of a Master, M.D. or Doctorate level stuff. That would build the broad expanse of knowledge, and the intellectual tools and self-discipline to easily expand one's knowledge base further, that would justify Scholar and/or Scientist.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

I see your point, but please note that the "Everyman" skill set is actually an "Everycharacter" list, i.e. a set of abilities that all or the overwhelming majority of characters in modern Hero games, such as Champions and Dark Champions, are most likely to have. Character stuff poeple in such settings(actually, in all RPG settings) are in almost all cases distinctly above the population lower common denominator, folks with above-average potential, including in most cases intelligence, willpower and learning ability. Given these assumptions, i think it is reasonable to tweak things abit towards the high part of the learning curve. In RL, I am well aware that are plenty of people that manage to exit school retaining but a nonexistent part of the curriculum (one of the main things that gives me serious considerations about the wisdom of keeping an unbiased, fair literacy/basic general education test for voting), but I think that to simulate the kind of people that make the population of RPG characters, the realy bad drop-outs and functional barely literates do not need to be covered, except in special cases (best marked as such by a Limitation). Besides, we are discussing Familiarity Skills, not full-fledged Skills. I think that those who do not manage to retain and assimilate even that minumal part of the curriculum represented by a Familiarity in basic knowledge skill aren't "everycharacter". And nerds are typical character stuff, in comics and movies

I see your point in calling them everycharacter skills instead of everyman, but even still, I don't hand out Disad points because a character concept doesn't have all the Everyman skills other characters have. So I'm playing a sentient ball of yarn. Even if I grew up in modern America and graduated high school, I still wouldn't have climbing or any kind of TF. That doesn't mean I get a Disad for that (though I would for not having any arms or legs, but that's different). It's just easier (and more fair, in my opinion) to put skills that a large number of people don't have, even if the majority does, in the realm of paid for points.

 

 

 

I see your point, and I might agree with it, but, please note, you might make almost the same argument against the ability to win someone to your POV by verbal and non-verbal manipulation, despite your negative character traits (Persuasion, and to alesser degree, Acting). This way, you might justify not making Seduction an "Everycharacter" skill, but you should also strike Persuasion (and Acting) from the selfsame list.

 

Point taken, and it has some merit, but again, you ought to extend the same argument to Persuasion (ie. diplomacy and settling a dispute by peaceful discussion).

The difference here is that anyone can argue. Anyone. That's all pursuasion is. Getting some else to agree with you, or do as you say. That's been going on since the dawn of man, and there's often nothing peaceful about it (though a skill pursuader, i.e. paid points for the full Skill, might pull it off).

 

Same thing with acting... everyone can act, or try to. Most of us pull it off. Try smiling when you're not happy. Make a face in the mirror. Scream melodramatically when your brother shoves past you so mother punishes him for it.

 

With Seduction, it's all about being liked or trusted without actually being likable or trustworthy. Anyone who actually is likable or trustworthy can accomplish this without the skill for the most part, and that's what everyone has.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Expanded Everyman Skill List

 

So, a Degree would mean that the character should have the Scholar aspect?

 

Whereas, someone with just a High School ed wouldn't have 'Scholar' necessarily..

My girlfriend has a character that's only 13. She has Scholar and no college education. She's just smart and soaks up knowledge like a sponge. Think Hermione Granger from Harry Potter.

 

I don't view the Skill Enhancers something you learn or acquire at any level of education. You either have them or you don't, or pick them up out of necessity or get left behind by those who have.