At what point can HERO sue?

[sbarron]

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=174389

 

This is getting a little crazy. Skills, then half-move and attack, feats (talents), now the bell curve, too? On 3d6? Inconceivable!!!

 

At this rate, eventually I'll have people lecturing me on how complicated Hero is and how simple and great D20 is, all the while them never suspecting that we're playing the same game.

 

So, where can I contirbute to the HERO legal defense fund? Of course, not long after the suite is filed, no doubt Hero Games will be bought out by WoTC, and Steve and Darren will be taking a long, long vacation...while I start playing D20 (the 3d6 Hero Rules version 1.0).

[Newbie]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=174389

 

This is getting a little crazy. Skills, then half-move and attack, feats (talents), now the bell curve, too? On 3d6? Inconceivable!!!

 

 

I remember the first edition of AD&D, either PHB or DMG, had a bell curve listed for 3d6. It was one of the first few pages of the manual. Of course, everyone knows that PC stats blow the bell curve WAY out.

[CorPse]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

I hear you brother!

 

I played a game of the new edition of GURPS at GenCon SoCal. I couldn't believe how much like Hero System it's getting. I've been using a Mac for years and now Windows machines are almost identical - at least when it comes to the interface.

 

It's funny - good ideas always win out - it's just not always easy to cash in on them. I, for one, think we play the best game on the market with the best writers in the market.

 

Love & Kisses,

CorPse

[Sean Waters]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

The first place I say martial arts and combat manoeuvres done the Hero way* was in....well, Hero (possibly Danger International). Seems like that's how everyone does it now. Maybe all we have to do is wait and everyone else will get in line eventually.

 

 

*you know bonus to OCV/DCV/Damage

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

Unearthed Arcana introduced LOTS of HERO-like constructs to the D20 system. In addition to rolling 3d6 for attacks and skills, they also included:

 

Using hexes instead of squares

Disadvantages (which give you compensating advantages)

"DEF" (Armor can be treated as partially reducing damage, rather than just probability of being hit)

"STUN" (a HERO-like way of dealing with non-lethal damage)

Greater customizability of races and classes (build your own)

probably other stuff too...

 

Some D20 folks are starting to subtly acknowledge that HERO has some better ideas, so they should "borrow" them.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

White Wolf's WOD Combat book was essentially the UMA. They even included the UMA as a reference in the bibliography.

[Rick]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

I believe Monte Cook wrote the Unearthed Arana...he was a line editor for hero back in the Iron Crown days.

[Solomon]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

White Wolf's WOD Combat book was essentially the UMA. They even included the UMA as a reference in the bibliography.

 

Unsurprising. Steve Long wrote Combat.

[Solomon]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

I believe Monte Cook wrote the Unearthed Arana...he was a line editor for hero back in the Iron Crown days.

 

Yep, but he didn't write Unhearted Arcana, he wrote Arcana Unhearted... different (and much better!) book, despite similar names.

[Rick]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

Ahhh...I see. My mistake.

[Victim]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

I'm pretty sure you can't patent game mechanics, so HERO can't sue.

[McCoy]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

I'm pretty sure you can't patent game mechanics' date=' so HERO can't sue.[/quote']

Patent? maybe not, Copyright, on the other hand . . . ..

[sinanju]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

Patent? maybe not' date=' Copyright, on the other hand . . . ..[/quote']

 

IANAL, but... my understanding is that you cannot copyright game mechanics either. You can copyright the specific presentation (i.e., the written text in which they're presented), but not the mechanics themselves. So using 3d6, skills, advantages, disadvantages, talents, powers, etc. may mean you're "borrowing" the ideas, but doesn't mean that you've done anything illegal.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

There are plenty of games that have similar mechanics, but are still very different. WoD, Shadowrun, and Fireborn all use dice pools. I don't think any of them are stealing from each other. D&D and the Palladium systems are class-based d20 (mostly), but are still different in a number of ways. HERO and GURPS are both point-based 3d6 games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

IANAL' date=' but... my understanding is that you cannot copyright game mechanics either. You can copyright the specific presentation (i.e., the written text in which they're presented), but not the mechanics themselves. So using 3d6, skills, advantages, disadvantages, talents, powers, etc. may mean you're "borrowing" the ideas, but doesn't mean that you've done anything illegal.[/quote']

 

My understanding is that you copywrite the game itself (eg. "Monopoly - the game of real estate trading" being copywritten does not preclude me from writing a book called "Monopoly" which relates to, say, a corrupt group of businesspeople attempting to control the world's airlines).

 

Patenting game mechanics has been virtually impossible, as I understand it, with one exception - Magic: The Gathering was able to patent its own core mechanics a few years ago.

[Agent X]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

It's probably a good thing that Hero would have difficulty suing, otherwise Task Force Games would have been able to rip into Hero many years ago over the speed/segment/phase movement system. Anybody who doubts that needs to check out the old, old Hero rules for vehicles and compare them to Star Fleet Battles.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

Err... if RPG companies made a habit of suing each other for taking ideas from (or even blatantly ripping off) their game mechanics, practically every RPG company on the planet would be suing practically every other RPG company on the planet. It just doesn't work that way, and we should all be grateful for the fact, because if it did, RPGs (including the HERO System) would simply never have been able to develop and advance to the extent they have today.

 

If every system designer had to design a unique and orignal game system that was different from everything else that had previously been done, we'd be stuck with an awful lot of bizarre and completely unplayable systems, because most of the ideas which actually work in practice have already been done.

 

Fact is, if you look at a wide range of RPG systems rather than focusing on HERO and d20 it becomes obvious that there is not one RPG on the market today that has not adopted a significant amount of system ideas from other RPGs. IMO, the whole concept that HERO Games could or should sue WotC or SJG over something like this seems to run utterly against the grain of the entire game design scene and how it has developed over the years.

[Glupii]

Re: At what point can HERO sue?

 

Here here. And there is nothing wrong with both systems existing in the same world. My group enjoys both. Granted it became alot more enjoyable with the advent of d20. It is a much cleaner and more reliable system than the old editions. But we still have fun with both d20 and Hero. In fact, not to long ago at a Con, I am pretty sure I heard Steve Long himself say he enjoys a good game of d20 (though it might have been one of the other developers at the panal discussion, I just assume it was Steve because his were the only words I really paid alot of attention too).