Multiple Grabs

[Silbeg]

There is a character in my game (a metamorph/stretcher) who wants to have the ability to grab multiple targets simultaneously.

 

The player has already ruled out the entangle and a force wall for this effect (mostly because he wants to be able to throw after the grab), so we were looking for a construct that works.

 

I am solicting some help for ideas, here... is this even a valid concept? After all, the character (Flux) will still only have 2 arms...

[TheEmerged]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

To make multiple grabs, you'll need something to hold them with. So you're going to be using either Extra Limbs with Invisible Power Effects, or Telekinesis (which IMO should require Extra Limbs to have more than two "limbs" anyway, using the "two flat boards" principle...).

[Rubric]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Interesting. This issue has been on my mind lately as well, except that in my case, I'm working on a character that can telekinetically grab multiple targets.

 

I've posted two questions to Steve Long, which you can see here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28516

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28570

 

 

They deal with using the Rapid Fire maneuver to grab multiple targets at range, and/or using TK with the "area effect" advantage. (By the way, in response to the 2nd poster -- as I understand Steve's response, there is no need for an "extra limbs" equivalent for TK. It seems that the base power allows you to grab and hold multiple targets, as long as you pay appropriate endurance costs, as explained in Steve's answers. I probably should follow up with Steve one more time to confirm this.)

 

Since you are dealing with physical grabbing instead of telekinetic, I assume your character might be able to use the Sweep maneuver for a similar effect, instead of Rapid Fire. This should be possible with no special powers or advantages, but all the targets have to be adjacent. I agree you might want extra limbs in order to really "hold" more than a few people. Growth might be interesting as well, along with the Stretching. I don't see why you would need Invisible Effects on the extra limbs -- it seems to me they could just be a special effect of the morph/stretching powers. In other words, it isn't technically an "extra limb", just an ability to loop your arm around someone, and then continue on with that arm to grab someone else.

 

In the alternative, maybe you could use Telekinesis with a "no range" limitation and an additional limitation to reflect the special effect of grabbing with your arms, though I'm not sure exactly what that limitation would be (maybe physical manifestation). In fact, this might be the way to go, since TK apparently allows you to grab multiple targets, without the need for special advantages.

 

At any rate, the character concept is definitely doable, probably in several different ways. I'll be interested to see how you work it out.

[Phil]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Could you just get a naked Advantage and apply AoE to STR (only for purposes of grabbing)? This is a slightly clunky construction, but seems to most neatly fit the desired outcome.

[GaryB]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

This covers up to 40 points of strength, but could be adjusted to the character.

 

The many armed freak

(Total: 26 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) for up to 40 Active Points of Strength (20 Active Points) (Real Cost: 20) plus Extra Limb (1), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Any number of arms, psuedopods, legs, tails, etc; +1/4) (6 Active Points) (Real Cost: 6)

 

Two parts, naked advantage to Strength, Autofire up to 5 times. This would allow them to make up to 5 grabs in a phase.

 

Extra Limbs - And if a character wants any number of limbs at any time, I usually make them take the +1/4 advantage of variable special effects.

 

Of course, if he wants to cover an area, then use naked advantage AOE for strength.

 

TK doesn't seem to fit IMO. Use stretching instead since there is a physical attachment to the body. TK has LOS range, is Indirect and invisible without modifications. Better off just using stretching for the effect due to the character concept.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Oh, and come to think of it, I suppose you could also use...

 

Transform: Victim into identical copy of victim that his "grabbed" by the user of this power...

 

Yes, Virginia, that was an attempt at humor...

[APE]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

You can use Area of Effect, Any area, Selective

increase or limmit the area to your Streching ability

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

On the Extra Limbs front: since the 5-point Extra Limbs Power is the same cost as the "doubling" Adder used for so many things, I've long used a House Rule that the number of limbs that you can use simultaneously (not for attacks, but for the standard uses listed for Extra Limbs) doubles for every +5 points.

 

If I were building this ability, I'd use an Autofire Naked Advantage on Strength to allow for multiple Grabs, with that Adder to let the user retain his grip on multiple targets. However if you're allowing the optional Sweep Maneuver, a "Sweep-Grab" (likely with extra Skill Levels to offset the penalty) would probably be cheaper.

 

For a more rules-legal approach, I'd suggest an AoE Selective Naked Advantage on the character's Strength. Based on how Stretching normally affects STR with other Advantages, that Power should allow you to move the center of the AoE farther from the character.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

If the character is using TK, then all is well and good and all he needs to do is master the Rapid Fire maneuver, and maybe buy some CSLs with it.

 

 

If he's using the Grab maneuver, he can instead use the Sweep maneuver, but it might be hard explaining how he's able to grab more than two targets. This is easily remidied by buying Extra Limbs.

 

A questions for clarification though: Does this character have Extra Limbs, and how many targets toes this character plan on being able to hold at the same time?

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

A questions for clarification though: Does this character have Extra Limbs' date=' and how many targets toes this character plan on being able to hold at the same time?[/quote']

 

Actually, the character does not have extra limbs... the special effect is that he is able to wrap his arms (or whatever) around multiple targets.

 

We have looked at Tk as a possible construct, but just doesn't feel quite right. AE (selective) on STR as a naked advantage has also been toyed with...

 

Does it even make sense for this SFx to be able to grab-and-throw multiple targets?

 

I personally think that something similar to what Zigzag from CKC has would make the most sense, without the funky lockout that this character has. Something like:

 

5d6 Entangle, Entangle Takes No Damage, Feedback (Flux takes all damage caused to entangle) would make sense (or something like that). However, the player doesn't quite get that this would cover the special effect. Of course, he wants to use this to grab-and-throw a bunch of agents, yet still be able to hold onto a brick... something that isn't likely to happen.

 

I do appreciate the input so far, but we aren't quite there yet.

 

I am thinking that the best solution would be "Extra Limbs" with a lim "Only to Grab/Hold Extra Targets" would work. He could then do a Grab-Sweep to grab multiple targets. The character already has +20 STR only to Hold, so this would add to that ability, I think.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Actually' date=' the character does not have extra limbs... the special effect is that he is able to wrap his arms (or whatever) around multiple targets. [/quote']

 

Hank McCoy doesn't have extra limbs either (nor do chimps), but that's what I would buy to simulate the ability to use feet with the same dexterity as hands.

 

I am thinking that the best solution would be "Extra Limbs" with a lim "Only to Grab/Hold Extra Targets" would work. He could then do a Grab-Sweep to grab multiple targets. The character already has +20 STR only to Hold' date=' so this would add to that ability, I think.[/quote']

 

This would work. Whether you use Sweep or an area effect variant (maybe "selective any area" to simulate the ability to bend, but a finite length to his arms, would work) to get multiple targets would depend on whether you want grabbing more than one target to reduce OCV.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Actually' date=' the character does not have extra limbs... the special effect is that he is able to wrap his arms (or whatever) around multiple targets[/quote']

 

So how does he grab then? You mention Zigzag, does this character have stretching?

 

The reason why I ask about how many he can hold at the same time is because that would determine if its really a Grab maneuver. With Grab, you don't have to throw, and if you grab a lot of targets, you have to be able to keep a hold of them.

 

If all you want to do is toss a bunch of dudes around, you can try a Double KB EB with No Range, or putting Double KB on STR as a Naked Advantage.

[austenandrews]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

If he's using the Grab maneuver, he can instead use the Sweep maneuver, but it might be hard explaining how he's able to grab more than two targets. This is easily remidied by buying Extra Limbs.

Extra Limbs shouldn't be necessary if the character already has SFX that explain the ability to hold multiple people. I wouldn't make Captain Gigantic buy Extra Limbs to hold two or three guys with one arm. Same with a Captain Stretchy.

 

I think Sweep should be plenty sufficient by itself.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

So how does he grab then? You mention Zigzag, does this character have stretching?

 

The reason why I ask about how many he can hold at the same time is because that would determine if its really a Grab maneuver. With Grab, you don't have to throw, and if you grab a lot of targets, you have to be able to keep a hold of them.

 

He does have stretching. I agree with the fact that he has to be able to hold them all, but with grab, you also can always throw or shove them.

That is why I am leaning towards Extra Limbs, only to "Grab & Hold" targets (-1).

 

If all you want to do is toss a bunch of dudes around, you can try a Double KB EB with No Range, or putting Double KB on STR as a Naked Advantage.

He actually has a variable advantaged (+1/2) HA, which he potentially could use for 1½ KB... bu the wants to be able to do it to many targets. Hmm... maybe I'll push that as an additional option.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Extra Limbs shouldn't be necessary if the character already has SFX that explain the ability to hold multiple people. I wouldn't make Captain Gigantic buy Extra Limbs to hold two or three guys with one arm. Same with a Captain Stretchy.

 

I think Sweep should be plenty sufficient by itself.

 

The problem is that Grab requires 2 arm, to start with. You can hold with 1 arm, at -5 STR. This makes me believe that you can grab at most 2 targets normally.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

The problem is that Grab requires 2 arm' date=' to start with. You can hold with 1 arm, at -5 STR. This makes me believe that you can grab at most 2 targets normally.[/quote']

 

Correct. I think the method should depend on SFX.

 

Captain Forearm -- extra limbs (+2 arms)

 

Captain Stretchy - stretching

 

Captain Gigantic - AoE for Strength

[austenandrews]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Correct. I think the method should depend on SFX.

Right, that's my thinking, too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Correct. I think the method should depend on SFX.

 

Captain Forearm -- extra limbs (+2 arms)

 

Captain Stretchy - stretching

 

Captain Gigantic - AoE for Strength

 

On the other hand, can Stretchy exert his full STR when he's distended all over the battlemap?

 

Part of Gigantic's STR relates to his huge size - if he Grabs 3 people with each massive hand, can he still bring full STR to bear against all of them?

 

At the end of the day, 5 points to avoid penalty for multiple grabbed targets doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

He does have stretching. I agree with the fact that he has to be able to hold them all, but with grab, you also can always throw or shove them.

That is why I am leaning towards Extra Limbs, only to "Grab & Hold" targets (-1).

 

Just a thought, but have you thought about buying Extra Limbs with No Fine Manipulation instead? Just because it says "Limbs" doesn't mean it actually has to be. It could simulate the ability to use a single limb as if it were several, or the ability to contort his body in such a way that he could use any part of it as a "limb" of sorts for game purposes. Not only would that solve the problem concerning the Grab issue, but it would give him another "stretchy stunt".

[austenandrews]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Eh, I've never liked nickel-and-diming players with nit-picky rulings like that. What's better for the game, 5 points spent on an adder of questionable relevance or a skill at 12-less? If you want, require a Power skill roll first. Me, I'm willing to let Captain Stretchy try as many cool stretchy moves as he can think of. If it becomes abusive or unbalancing that's another matter, but if it's something that 5 points would have allowed anyway, I doubt that'll be the case.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Just a thought' date=' but have you thought about buying Extra Limbs with No Fine Manipulation instead? Just because it says "Limbs" doesn't mean it actually has to be. It could simulate the ability to use a single limb as if it were several, or the ability to contort his body in such a way that he could use any part of it as a "limb" of sorts for game purposes. Not only would that solve the problem concerning the Grab issue, but it would give him another "stretchy stunt".[/quote']

 

Sounds like a good idea... really cool! Would pretty well solve the issue!

 

Thanks!

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

Eh' date=' I've never liked nickel-and-diming players with nit-picky rulings like that. What's better for the game, 5 points spent on an adder of questionable relevance or a skill at 12-less? If you want, require a Power skill roll first. Me, I'm willing to let Captain Stretchy try as many cool stretchy moves as he can think of. If it becomes abusive or unbalancing that's another matter, but if it's something that 5 points would have allowed anyway, I doubt that'll be the case.[/quote']

 

First of all, I don't believe that it is a nit-picky ruling. The rules on grabs are pretty clear.

 

Granted, we are talking about a power that is going to end up being 4 points, real. This isn't a big deal, but I still think that it is worth it. However, the "off-hand" attacks will be penalized normally, which is also fair.

 

Thus, he'll then likely want to add Ambidextrous or PSLs against the off-hand penalties, so that his additional grabs won't be penalized (which would be an additional 3 points. Then, probably, Rapid Attack (only for grabs, -1/2) for an additional 3 points (after the lim).

 

All told, this adds up to 10 points, which is not trivial, yet very fair.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Grabs

 

recI have to thank everyone for their input, it was quite helpful in getting through these issues. I knew it was going to be a problem on Saturday when the character was finished (of course, the player didn't give me enough time for final edits and reviewal), so I wasn't able to come up with any clever ideas for what he really wanted to do.

 

In any case, we have decided on:

 

3 "Flux 'Limbs'": Stretching, Limited Manipulation (- ¼ ), Required Body Control Skill Roll (-½ )

In addition, the character now has Ambidexterity (the player wanted it, and all it really is is 2 PSLs vs off-hand penalties).

 

I am judicating that there will be a -1/additional limb on the skill roll, but not defining any preset number of limbs. In that way, as long as he keeps making the rolls, he can keep adding an additional "limb".

 

Does this seem fair?

[Tech]

Multiple Disarms

 

My brother has a superspeedster who wants to be able to disarm multiple opponents. Assuming he buys Martial Disarm, and based on the above ideas, would Area effect, Selective bought on his Str be sufficient or would something need to be done to the Martial manuever itself?

[austenandrews]

Re: Multiple Disarms

 

My brother has a superspeedster who wants to be able to disarm multiple opponents. Assuming he buys Martial Disarm' date=' and based on the above ideas, would Area effect, Selective bought on his Str be sufficient or would something need to be done to the Martial manuever itself?[/quote']

I would rule AE Selective STR to be sufficient. But obviously I'm on the liberal end of this group.