Crucial Help Needed

[Magmarock]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

 

So, here is what I need... desperately need.

 

I need to fix my campaign. And I need advice on how to say no to my players. It is just these two players. My other three players are great. I'm just so fed up right now that I want to snap and throw in the towel. And further, it isn't fair to my other players because I'm penalizing them when it comes to XP rewards. I seem to think that because some players abuse XP rewards, I can skim it down for the group. And that isn't fair to them.

 

I haven't read any of the responses, so forgive me if this is a redundant answer, but I would had a major villain steal her independent focus and use it to kill his character. Have the independent focus be destroyed, lost, or otherwise irretreivable.

 

Tell them to create new characters that are A) not abusing the rules- in spirit as well as in word, that will fit the current campaign (no exceptions), and C) will work both in and out of combat. Oversee the construction of both PCs. Don't allow the PC in the game until they are workable.

 

If either player refuses to comply, show them the door. Period. To do otherwise is incredibly unfair to the rest of the group, don't you think?

 

 

Mags

[Lightray]

I have an easier time saying No when I have something I can point to back me up.

You have the Hero rules book. That's about the biggest thing you need to back you up.

 

If they won't read the sections on the Independent limitation and "Campaign Ground Rules", well, then hit them over the head with the Hero rulebook.

 

Maybe you can beat some sense into them.

[Kirby]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

The following only applies if the players are willing to remake their characters, not for the confrontation/meeting:

 

One thing that helped me with my group of one newbie to HERO/Champions and two who are rookies, but not newbies, so-to-speak, was that I sat at my computer while they sat next to me and we created the character together on HDv2, but I was the one putting the stuff in.

 

This way, you'll see any and all glaring violations, along with the ability to talk to them about it. My two 'rookies' had the USPD in which they wanted to base their characters, but the powers in there are too high, so after they said what they wanted and I put it in, I explained that it was too high, but lowered each one until they were acceptable. I was also able to point out weaknesses in their characters.

 

Even though we've only ran one 'adventure' (about three sessions), their characters are undefeated, even though they are balanced. (But I've been throwing 4E villains at them, to get them comfortable to the system.)

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

I have an easier time saying No when I have something I can point to back me up.

You do. It's called "GM's authority". Invoke it. Revel in it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

I have an easier time saying No when I have something I can point to back me up.

 

Point here. Then ask "Funny - no post sympathetic to you at all. Not. One. Post."

[Snowcat]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

All the advice give has been great and right on targart , but as Mikey wrote

you are the GM and ,if i may god of your world and at times the player need to

remenber this, but then again i m hardass ; the point of this is that player

sometimes need help and adult supervision when creating there heros .

and i my self thank everyone for the good advise , because i'm have the same

problem !!!!!!! You can do 25D6 my ass with that attack !!!!!!!

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

One simple question: has your character made a similar comment in-game? "How is it that when I sneeze, the media picks up and blows it all out of proportion, but when Combat Wombat beats a man near to death and costs half a dozen families their homes in the process, the media lets him skate?" back at HQ might just start some discussions rolling IC.

 

No offense intended, but in my view, a player is either part of the solution actively or part of the problem by default. Making the campaign fun for everyone is not solely the GM's responsibility.

The problem is, she's convinced he's a god (OOC, I know he's only half of one), so she doesn't dare criticize him for his imperfections. So if anyone's going to say anything, it's NOT my character. The one character most likely to say something just switched characters.

[Snowcat]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

But some times the other players need to do or say something ?

 

It's everyones game , and everybody has to put something into the

game - Que ?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

The problem is' date=' she's convinced he's a god (OOC, I know he's only half of one), so she doesn't dare criticize him for his imperfections. So if anyone's going to say anything, it's NOT my character. The one character most likely to say something just switched characters.[/quote']

 

There's also nothing wrong with character growth. "I believed you to be a God, and perhaps I still do. But a just God would not take such actions."

[Lightray]

The problem is' date=' she's convinced he's a god (OOC, I know he's only half of one), so she doesn't dare criticize him for his imperfections. So if anyone's going to say anything, it's NOT my character. The one character most likely to say something just switched characters.[/quote']

It would be very helpful if you as a player gently mentioned to Limitation Lass or Combat Wombat that you want them to be a little more open to playing well with others.

 

And if gentle doesn't work, borrow the Hero book and beat some sense into them.

[hooligan x]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

I have had all these problems at one time or another. I have also used most of the suggested tactics to fix these problems.

 

I had a player leave the game after a heart-to-heart sitdown over the character actively working against the other characters. Problem solved.

 

I had a player make a new character after I told him his character concept wouldn't fit with the established campaign mythology. Problem solved.

 

One player had a series of cookie-cutter lame-o characters and liked to drink JD and show us his firearms. We changed the game venue and forgot to tell him. Problem solved.

 

My latest problem is a newbie who can't understand why he can't pay cash for a police scanner at the Radio Shack and use it without paying CP for the power. I'll figure it out somehow.

 

Good luck Super Squirrel. It'll be ok. Promise.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

My latest problem is a newbie who can't understand why he can't pay cash for a police scanner at the Radio Shack and use it without paying CP for the power. I'll figure it out somehow.

We deal with such devices in two ways:

 

First, abilities bought with cash instead of CP are unreliable, and usually fragile. They break easily, and are often easily jammed even by poor weather. Does anyone think that an $89 Radio Shack police scanner is going to work as well as Batman's one-of-a-kind custom rig in the Batmobile?

 

Second, scanners and the like work wonderfully as plot hooks. What better way to get the hero(es) to a scene when needed? It's far more useful as a GM's tool than it ever will be to the PCs. (That's the same reason I gave our team first a team jet, and now a starship: It gets them to where the adventure is.)

 

Most police broadcasts are mind-numbingly routine: Traffic stops, traffic accidents, domestic disturbances, burglar alarms, yawn. (Back before the EPPD upgraded their radios I did once listen to a live hostage situation on my scanner at a local Toys R Us with the El Paso SWAT team deployed. A gunman had taken seven people hostage. I thought it was just a drill until I read the papers the next morning. D'oh!)

 

And as a side note, I should also point out that modern police increasingly use either encrypted radios, radio-linked computers, or cell phones for critical communications. The only thing a standard police band radio will hear from El Paso's PD is requests for tow trucks and to run license plate numbers. (You can still hear a bit more from our county sheriff's department.) And forget trying to listen to state or federal communications with a regulation scanner. They're either trunked and/or encrypted.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

It would be very helpful if you as a player gently mentioned to Limitation Lass or Combat Wombat that you want them to be a little more open to playing well with others.

 

And if gentle doesn't work, borrow the Hero book and beat some sense into them.

 

Player intervention (rather than character intervention) is especially necessary in two common cases. First, the player is so dense the in character interaction just slides right on by. They need to be explicitly told "speaking out of character, your style of playing does not fit with our group, and is bringing the game down".

 

The second is the player who feels it's OK because "I', playing my character". In a lot of cases, this can be solved by playing your character. "OK, your character a thief so you steal from party members. Good role playing. My character, the barbarian who believes amputation is the appropriate punishment for a first offense, is about to engage in some good role playing as well. Nothing personal." In others, the player needs to be told "The character you are playing does not fit into the campaign. If he can't be modified to fit, he will need to be removed and played when a more suitabke campaign comes along."

 

I stand by my original statement, however, that the players, not just the GM, share in the responsibility to address issues which make the game "no fun". It's the group who loses out by letting this behavious continue. The fact the other players aren't speaking up is readily interpreted by the "problem player" to mean the game is fine, and the GM is the problem if he raises the issue.

 

"Hey, none of the other players have a problem with CW/LL" [meaning no one else has said anything, which I can only take to mean they have no problem], "so what's YOUR problem, screen monkey?"

 

The best answer is the other players speaking up - the GM saying "well, other people have complained" just sounds like rationalization.

[CBikle]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

We deal with such devices in two ways:

 

First, abilities bought with cash instead of CP are unreliable, and usually fragile. They break easily, and are often easily jammed even by poor weather. Does anyone think that an $89 Radio Shack police scanner is going to work as well as Batman's one-of-a-kind custom rig in the Batmobile?

 

Second, scanners and the like work wonderfully as plot hooks. What better way to get the hero(es) to a scene when needed? It's far more useful as a GM's tool than it ever will be to the PCs. (That's the same reason I gave our team first a team jet, and now a starship: It gets them to where the adventure is.)

 

Most police broadcasts are mind-numbingly routine: Traffic stops, traffic accidents, domestic disturbances, burglar alarms, yawn. (Back before the EPPD upgraded their radios I did once listen to a live hostage situation on my scanner at a local Toys R Us with the El Paso SWAT team deployed. A gunman had taken seven people hostage. I thought it was just a drill until I read the papers the next morning. D'oh!)

 

And as a side note, I should also point out that modern police increasingly use either encrypted radios, radio-linked computers, or cell phones for critical communications. The only thing a standard police band radio will hear from El Paso's PD is requests for tow trucks and to run license plate numbers. (You can still hear a bit more from our county sheriff's department.) And forget trying to listen to state or federal communications with a regulation scanner. They're either trunked and/or encrypted.

 

I agree 100 %, especially with the idea of the scanner really just being a plot-hook anyway or as a way to introduce new characters or to alert the PCs that the authorities are trying to contact them.

[Kirby]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

And if gentle doesn't work' date=' borrow the Hero book and beat some sense into them. [/quote']

Let me paraphrase this one with a bit of yellow journalism added to the mix:

 

After telling the players they need to remake their characters, go to the Champions book (not Champions Universe) after asking what type they want to play. On page 81 is the Quick Superhuman Generator. (I have been so dang impressed by this. I'm guessing CW will want to play a Brick, All-Around Fighter and LL will want to play either Powered Armor or Weaponmaster.) Make them build directly from there -as given- and then do slight modifications (with you still at the helm, typing stuff in at the computer).

 

The only change I might make off-hand is to require a certain amount of actual non-combat skills. For example, the next characters made in my campaign, I'm going to ask them first: "What job does your characer have? Okay, let's get him/her some skills for that first." Then I'll find out what kind of super they want to have.

 

But that's just me, YMMV.

[Kirby]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

We deal with such devices in two ways:

I like your examples there. I think that's well thought-out.

 

Out of curiousity, was it you that mentioned in another thread that you had built on 350 points a character with 7+ Speed and like a 40+ DEX? (Martial Artist, I think?) If so, woudl you mind re/posting her (I think it was a she) here?

 

Does anyone think that an $89 Radio Shack police scanner is going to work as well as Batman's one-of-a-kind custom rig in the Batmobile?

I used to work for Radio Shack in their Franchise Division years ago. During the time I was there was when scanners were no longer allowed to pick up certain frequencies (mainly, answering machines and cordless phones). I remember we (the company) had just come out with an awesome 900 MHz scanner that we were displaying for the new year's catalog at a RS Dealer/Franchise convention and two days later we had to remove it because the law was passed saying they weren't allowed to produce them any more. At the time they came to remove it, I was standing by it with some dealers & RS employees and we were listening to someone's conversation. Kind of funny.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Combat Wombat has been double dealt with. The only thing left is telling Mrs. Independent she is no longer allowed to use Independent.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

There's also nothing wrong with character growth. "I believed you to be a God' date=' and perhaps I still do. But a just God would not take such actions."[/quote']

I guess you're unfamiliar with the Greek pantheon. They were deeply flawed individuals. Those who worhsipped them were aware of their weaknesses, and, while they considered the gods above their own capabilities, knew them to be rash, irrational, and essentially spoiled.

 

My character is well aware her party member isn't perfect, but wouldn't dare to question his actions.

 

Now, if my GM (ahem, ahem) were to see fit to have my character stumble across some information that revealed he was only one of two halves of a god, then her attitude would change. But I've tried every method I know of to breach the OOC/in-character knowledge barrier, and have hit a number of brick walls. So it's either going to come up eventually, when he feels like illuminating my character, or she's not meant to find out.

 

Meanwhile, despite and perhaps because of LL and CW, I'm rather enjoying Josh's game. As his wife, I'm supportive of my husband and his frustrations, but I don't share them in this case. So to everyone trying to guilt trip me into doing Josh's job as GM, my answer is that I don't care if they're cheating and taking advantage of loopholes. It's a friggin' game. There are no prizes for the person who kills the most villains in the cruelest way, or whatever. So, being the quiet, nonconfrontational person I am, I'm not going to yell at anyone for bending rules I don't even fully understand.

 

So back off. Please.

[Kirby]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Now' date=' if my GM (ahem, ahem) were to see fit to have my character stumble across some information that revealed he was only one of two halves of a god, then her attitude would change.[/quote']

Hee hee.

There are no prizes for the person who kills the most villains in the cruelest way' date=' or whatever.[/quote']

WHAT? And yet I spent money buying that stuff for my players... dangit.

J/K.

So to everyone trying to guilt trip me into doing Josh's job as GM, my answer is that I don't care if they're cheating and taking advantage of loopholes. It's a friggin' game.

...

So back off. Please.

Yeah, you go girl. Hey, she said "please."

[Kirby]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Combat Wombat has been double dealt with. The only thing left is telling Mrs. Independent she is no longer allowed to use Independent.

 

:blinks twice: Hey, by "double dealt with," did you mean like you knocked him down and then kicked him when he was down? If you'd care to elaborate, I'm more than willing to listen. Or read. But, of course, if you don't want to, well, I'll understand. No, really, I will.

[Mike W]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Buying equipment with cash is okay in our games as long as:

 

It fits a plot element(i.e. - you can buy a gun to disguise yourself as a gunman. you can buy some cheap walkie talkies to stay in contact with the newbies for now, though obviously with limits).

 

 

It's basically a one shot thing. Then you have to pay points for it.

 

And only "little stuff" that would be easily available. Maybe a car if you need one in a hurry. It's presumed you have one. We had to charter a plane once to get back from England when the gal we went with ditched us(she was a double agent and we knew it, but she timed her move well. That and one of the PCs pulled boneheaded move. But it happens.)

[KA.]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Combat Wombat has been double dealt with. The only thing left is telling Mrs. Independent she is no longer allowed to use Independent.

 

Super Squirrel,

I sincerely hope that this will come out sounding supportive rather than snippy, because that is my intent.

The best thing you can do for your players and yourself, is to be more authoritative.

Even though it would be great if the 'good' players would support you against the 'bad' players, it is ultimately up to you.

You don't need anything to back you up, other than you own backbone!

You are the one who does the majority of the work.

You are the one that everyone holds responsibile for the quality of their gaming experience.

Well, with great responsibility comes great power.

I know that we read horror stories here about draconian GM's who destroy campaigns with their rigidity, but a lack of willpower can do the same thing just as quickly.

 

Imagine that you are in charge of a troop of boy scouts.

Today's badge is 'cooking'.

Half the scouts want to make cookies.

Half the scouts want to make chili.

No one is going to be happy with a mixture of dough, beans, ground beef, and chocolate chips that is going to result, if you don't take a firm hand and decide one way or the other.

 

As long as you fairly enforce the same rules on all players, they will respect you.

In the long run, this is more important than if they like you.

 

And remember, people who pull this kind of stuff either don't understand what they are doing,

in which case you have every right and duty to educate them,

or they are showing disrespect toward you and all the hard work that GM'ing requires,

in which case you have every right and duty to give them a swift kick in the pants.

 

You don't have to be a jerk about it, at least in your attitude, but if you are running a campaign, then your word is law!

 

You don't have to have a rule in the book, or a sheet of guidelines.

 

The only guideline you need is this:

"In my campaign, my word is final."

 

I see being the GM like hosting a dinner party.

You might ask around ahead of time to get an idea what everyone likes to eat, but once you have told everyone what you are serving, and cooked the food, if someone showed up and said:

"Hamburgers? No way! I want pork chops and make it snappy!", you would think they were being a world-class jerk, and you would never dream of indulging their whim.

I see certain types of player behavior as being just as rude.

 

I also agree with the idea of being much more hands-on during character creation.

I have almost always helped players create their characters, often by having them tell me the concept and sitting with me while I do the typing/writing.

That way the character fits both their concept and my campaign.

 

KA.

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

Super Squirrel,

I sincerely hope that this will come out sounding supportive rather than snippy, because that is my intent.

The best thing you can do for your players and yourself, is to be more authoritative.

Even though it would be great if the 'good' players would support you against the 'bad' players, it is ultimately up to you.

You don't need anything to back you up, other than you own backbone!

You are the one who does the majority of the work.

You are the one that everyone holds responsibile for the quality of their gaming experience.

Well, with great responsibility comes great power.

I know that we read horror stories here about draconian GM's who destroy campaigns with their rigidity, but a lack of willpower can do the same thing just as quickly.

 

Imagine that you are in charge of a troop of boy scouts.

Today's badge is 'cooking'.

Half the scouts want to make cookies.

Half the scouts want to make chili.

No one is going to be happy with a mixture of dough, beans, ground beef, and chocolate chips that is going to result, if you don't take a firm hand and decide one way or the other.

 

As long as you fairly enforce the same rules on all players, they will respect you.

In the long run, this is more important than if they like you.

 

And remember, people who pull this kind of stuff either don't understand what they are doing,

in which case you have every right and duty to educate them,

or they are showing disrespect toward you and all the hard work that GM'ing requires,

in which case you have every right and duty to give them a swift kick in the pants.

 

You don't have to be a jerk about it, at least in your attitude, but if you are running a campaign, then your word is law!

 

You don't have to have a rule in the book, or a sheet of guidelines.

 

The only guideline you need is this:

"In my campaign, my word is final."

 

I see being the GM like hosting a dinner party.

You might ask around ahead of time to get an idea what everyone likes to eat, but once you have told everyone what you are serving, and cooked the food, if someone showed up and said:

"Hamburgers? No way! I want pork chops and make it snappy!", you would think they were being a world-class jerk, and you would never dream of indulging their whim.

I see certain types of player behavior as being just as rude.

 

I also agree with the idea of being much more hands-on during character creation.

I have almost always helped players create their characters, often by having them tell me the concept and sitting with me while I do the typing/writing.

That way the character fits both their concept and my campaign.

 

KA.

 

 

KA, was it dinner time by any chance when you wrote this post???

 

I agree with KA more or less but now I'm to hungry to make a very long post. If She does not understand enough(or is not willing) to change then start taking her toys away, after that she will change her tune or quit. I think you would win no matter what.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

I like your examples there. I think that's well thought-out.

 

Out of curiousity, was it you that mentioned in another thread that you had built on 350 points a character with 7+ Speed and like a 40+ DEX? (Martial Artist, I think?) If so, woudl you mind re/posting her (I think it was a she) here?

Zl'f has a DEX of 43 and a SPD of 9. A text writeup of Zl'f can be found at post #53 of this thread. It's not quite current since that adventure was in August of 2003 and the character now has a bit more experience, but it covers the basic design. I can send you an .hdc version if you need it.

 

If you need further info just PM me and I'll be happy to get you what you need.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crucial Help Needed

 

I guess you're unfamiliar with the Greek pantheon. They were deeply flawed individuals. Those who worhsipped them were aware of their weaknesses, and, while they considered the gods above their own capabilities, knew them to be rash, irrational, and essentially spoiled.

 

My character is well aware her party member isn't perfect, but wouldn't dare to question his actions.

 

They were also a pantheon which had internal strife, so worshipping any one does not mean worshipping all, nor was changing loyalty impossible. But to the extent your character's background and personality dictate continued worship, I'd say play it out that way. Even if the character's attitude may change over time, it shouldn't be a 180 degree shift resulting from a single action. That leaves OOC interaction (but see below).

 

Meanwhile' date=' despite and perhaps because of LL and CW, I'm rather enjoying Josh's game.[/quote']

 

This, to me, says it all. My comments on "the other three players" assumed (wrongly, based on your statement, at least for one of the three) that they were also dissatisfied, and were of the "If you're not prepared to do something about it, don't comnplain about it" theory. You're not complaining, so I don't see you having any need to address the non-problem. If everyone's happy with the game, then there is no problem. If one person is unhapopy with the game, it's that person who needs to raise his or her concerns.

 

If Combat Wombat and Limitation Lass aren't detracting from the fun (and your comments indicate they may even be adding to it, at least for you), then there's no real problem. In my game, I'd be worried about the following:

 

(a) Are the other players happy? Sounds like there are no problems in that regard.

 

( For Limitation Lass, does she fully understand what Independent means? I liken it to borrowing points. You get all those points saved by a -2 limitation, but ypou pay them back with interest when (not if, at least assuming a long-term game) the object disappears. I might still prohibit the limitation, using the same logic espoused in the rules for "Darkness Dave", whose powers only work in darkness. You've got a very powerful character until someone steals the devices, at which time you either limp along with vastly reduced power or (far more likely) retire the character (much like Darkness Dave will play that character only if the scenario will occur at night).

 

© For Combat Wombat, is he OK with having little/nothing to do in non-combat scenes? I'd be just as concerned that a player whose character has minimal combat abilities will be OK with having little impact on combat scenes. If he's OK with it, let him play the character he wants to play. I'd also be concerned if he is unbalancing the game to the detriment of others' enjoyment, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Finally, I would certainly make him aware that his cations have consequences - cost people their homes, it comes back. If you beat someone near to death, that comes back as well. For this character, I see at least one new Hunted (the guy he trashed), police investigation (unnecessary brutality/assault and destruction or property), bad press (for both the beating and the building) and a lawsuit (who's going to pay for those repairs?) as fairly reasonable results of his actions. Stretching things a bit more (not at all outof genre in fur colour supers), I'd bet the beaten guy has friends or relatives - maybe some have connections and/or powers of their own. All the people in the building have friends and family as well, as does the landlord. Hey, DNPC's have to live somewhere, right? Hmmm...maybe the landlord is bankrupt and his creditors seize his asets - including Combat Wombat's residence, which is coincidentally owned by the same landlord. Now, if you want to anoy the player, the non-combat situations should be used, since he likely wouldn't mid taking on The Secret Society of Villains Made Holeless By Careless Supers in combat.