Powers requiring prereq's...

[Jkeown]

Say I've got a power that only manifests with a great amount of training and focus. (That is, requires a particular Martial Art at a certain number of points spent, or a different power to already be known) Is this worth a limitation?

 

My gut feeling is "no." but I thought I'd ask HEROdom...

[Blue]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

A limit saying that you can't perform "5-Flaming-Fingers of Doom" until after you have performed a Grab; well, that would be worth a limitation.

 

A limit saying you can't buy "5-Flaming-Fingers of Doom" until after you've gotten +5 OCV in grab is more of a campaign limit, and not worth anything.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

It depends.

 

If you just want to buy the power and already have the pre-requisites, not worth anything.

 

If you have a rigidly defined advancement structure (you are modelling other games where, for instance, you have to take POWER A before you can take POWER , them it may be worth a limitation, but everyone in the campaighn would have to be subject to the same limits to justify it.

[Blue]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

I view it as being more like "Package Deals".

 

4th Edition and earlier, Package Deals gave you a "Package Bonus". If you wanted to be a Dwarf, you paid for all the skills and stats and limits involved in simulating being a dwarf, then you got a rebate.

 

In the 5th and beyond, you don't get the extra points. If you want to be a dwarf and be in the FH campaign, that's just what you have to buy! Therefore it goes from being a limitation to simply being a campaign restriction.

 

I think this is exactly the same. 4th Edition you might have gotten something for it. 5th Edition, I'd say not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

I view it as being more like "Package Deals".

 

4th Edition and earlier, Package Deals gave you a "Package Bonus". If you wanted to be a Dwarf, you paid for all the skills and stats and limits involved in simulating being a dwarf, then you got a rebate.

 

In the 5th and beyond, you don't get the extra points. If you want to be a dwarf and be in the FH campaign, that's just what you have to buy! Therefore it goes from being a limitation to simply being a campaign restriction.

 

I think this is exactly the same. 4th Edition you might have gotten something for it. 5th Edition, I'd say not.

 

 

In a completely 'open' game where you can buy what you like, I agree.

 

In a structured game where you have to take a certain path to a certain power, you could go either way, but I would say it was worth some sort of limitation, even if only because it cuts down your options.

 

The important thing is that the rules are the same for everyone.

[Herolover]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

IMO if Power A requires Power B then the only way Power A gets a limitiation is if Power B must be active in which case you should use some form of linked.

 

Take for example Martial Arts. Martial arts rules require that a minimum 10 points are bought. This rule is a "Campaign Limit." All Martial arts are not bought with the limitation "requires 10 points worth of Martial Arts."

 

I can't see how I would allow this limitation on Power A if it was a campaign rule. Any player that gave me Power A with the limitation that "must have Power B" I would look at like he gave me Running +5" must have legs.

 

The only way it is a limitation is if in someway during the campaign the player could loose the abiltiy Power B. Once again linked should be used.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

Say I've got a power that only manifests with a great amount of training and focus. (That is, requires a particular Martial Art at a certain number of points spent, or a different power to already be known) Is this worth a limitation?

 

My gut feeling is "no." but I thought I'd ask HEROdom...

 

I would not allow any limitation for this, because you would define the requirement as a power or skill that you already had, I assume. This does not limit you in any way.

 

You might look at "Requires a Skill Roll" as a limitation. You would have to buy the skill, and make your roll for the power to work. Its a good way to represent power "tricks", like a martial artist who can focus his Chi to perform "superhuman" feats. But simply saying that the power requires great training and focus is more of a special effect/origin than a limitation.

 

T.H.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

The only way I'd allow a limitaiton of this nature is if there is some way the prerequisite can be removed.

 

For example, I wouldn't allow the "must have X points of Y spells" prerequisite from 4th Edition's Fantasy HERO.

 

I would, however, allow something like "Must have 20 STR" in a campaign using normal characteristic maxima if STR-reducing abilities are at least uncommon (as opposed to rare).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

I don't think it's worth any points if the entire campaign world is under the same restrictions.. look at NCM. If it is the assumed base level (ie, everyone has it from PCs to NPCs) then it's worth no points (eg Heroic Level Games).

 

This is similar, if no one can ever get Power B without first having Power A it's not worth points as a Limitation, it's just something that is in the game.

 

It's very similar to saying you can't get to 15STR without first going past 14STR. 15 doesn't have a limitation of "must have 14STR first", since everyone in all of reality has to follow that basic rule.

 

Silly analogy I realize, but the principle is the same - no one's really Limited by not being able to get B without A, since everyone has to obey the same rule. Similarly, anyone who has B will be known to have A as well....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

It's not worth a Limitation or any kind of bonus. It's basically nothing more than a campaign restriction and no different that telling someone they can't buy Desolidification unless the SFX that can affect you is Magic.

 

Herolover's post reveals the perfect precidence in the Hero System for why it's not a Limitation:

 

Take for example Martial Arts. Martial arts rules require that a minimum 10 points are bought. This rule is a "Campaign Limit." All Martial arts are not bought with the limitation "requires 10 points worth of Martial Arts."

 

As Herolover says, none of the Maneuvers have any kind of Limitation on them. It's just a balancing factor built into the game. Saying "Must have bought Power A before you can buy Power B" is no different.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

As Herolover says' date=' none of the Maneuvers have any kind of Limitation on them. It's just a balancing factor built into the game. Saying "Must have bought Power A before you can buy Power B" is no different.[/quote']

 

Well, to play the devil's advocate, one might argue the limitation is built into the cost of the maneuvers already. But I agree that prerequisites aren't worth any cost reduction.

 

In some cases, the reverse might be true. For example, you might have a required Perk/Talent just to be allowed to start learning these abilities. A fantasy game where the ability to use magic costs 10 poiints "Mystic Talent", or a rising cost for "Member of the Circle of Sequestered Magicks" to learn spells of various power levels, for example, would not place a limitation "only for Mystic Talents/7th Rank Circle" on spells (well, I guess it would, but it's a -0 limitation imposed by the campaign ground rules). It's a ground rule of the campaign, not a limitation on the abilities.

[Herolover]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

I do want to make a point that although I feel prerequisites are not worth any limitations I do like them for certain campaigns. They are are worthy item to be included in some campaigns and give a certain feel to campaign. If done right they can really add something to a campaign.

 

That said they still aren't worth any limitations. I look at limitations like I look at character disadvantages. When I look at a disadvantage I ask "how is this going to be a disadvantage during play." I do the same for limitations, "how is this going to be a disadvantage to that power during play."

 

That is why I say no to limitation on Prerequisites. I just don't see how it will be a disadvantage during play.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

If you have to buy Power A before you can buy Power B, and Power B is so good that it means you'll probably never need Power A again (if you've played Diablo, you'll know what I mean), then the 'in-play disadvantage' is that you have to tie up character points that you could have used elsewhere: in effect the cost of Power B is (Power A+Power . I can see here that you should get some sort of cost break.

 

Now if Power B is of a different nature or utility - you'll still be using Power A - it is worth nothing or very little by way of limitation.

 

Of course, if Power A and Power B are attack powers, I'd be slipping them into a multi-power, not worrying about limitations, in all likelihood , but in a campaign where you don't use frameworks, I'd say a limitation was appropriate. Martial arts manoeuvres are a special case in any event as the powers built in are already discounted, which is why they won't go into a framework and why there is a 'minimum buy' requirement. If what you are building is an actual martial art manoeuvre, built with the MA rules, not a power or powers built to simulate MA, then I would not allow a limitation.

 

If not, you could do it by simply saying 'campaign requirement', but I don't think that is so much the 'right' way to do it as 'a' way to do it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

I do want to make a point that although I feel prerequisites are not worth any limitations I do like them for certain campaigns. They are are worthy item to be included in some campaigns and give a certain feel to campaign. If done right they can really add something to a campaign.

 

Absolutely. A very simple example - maybe you want Martial Arts to be less common, or maybe you want certain forms of martial arts to be lkess common. You simply establish, as a ground rule, a requirement for more investment. Perhaps you need KS: MA style on at least 11-, and 15 points of maneuvers. Maybe you also have to buy the Well Travelled perk to have Eastern martial arts styles,

 

As an example, maybe I want my golden age campaign characters to focus on boxing, wrestling, etc. and not eastern Martial Arts, so I require the characters to buy KS: [MA style of choice] at least 11-, Well Travelled, AK and CK of the asian area where their desired style is practiced, again to 11-, and a Contact (their sensei), and only then may they purchase those Martial Arts. I don't require this of "western" martial arts, so there's a greater point disincentive to taking Eastern styles. I could also require at least (say) 15 points of maneuvers, and at least 10 points of added DC's and/or skill levels so an Eastern style must be a greater focus for a character.

 

That said they still aren't worth any limitations. I look at limitations like I look at character disadvantages. When I look at a disadvantage I ask "how is this going to be a disadvantage during play." I do the same for limitations' date=' "how is this going to be a disadvantage to that power during play."[/quote']

 

Absolutely. I could also require al Superpowersbe at least 2x END cost. Then I would allow the limitation, because it weakens the ability. But paying points for prerequisites limits access to the ability, not the usefulness of the ability itself. Those AK's and CK's may come in very handy in a scenario set in that area, for example.

[Blue]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

If Everyone in the campaign (good and bad guys) MUST have Martial Choke Hold in order to perform Clutch of the Cobra, it's really simply a matter of whether the GM wants to make the second power cheaper for players and NPCs.

 

If he thinks that 5pts is fine for the second martial manuever, then he should leave it alone. If, however, he wants it to be a little cheaper for everyone, then he should assign it the limit. It's GM's choice, as with many things.

 

As you can see, there's not definitive answer, so do what's best for your campaign.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Powers requiring prereq's...

 

If you have to buy Power A before you can buy Power B' date=' and Power B is so good that it means you'll probably never need Power A again (if you've played Diablo, you'll know what I mean), then the 'in-play disadvantage' is that you have to tie up character points that you could have used elsewhere: in effect the cost of Power B is (Power A+Power . I can see here that you should get some sort of cost break.[/quote']

 

I see this example as being a little bit like needing an EB 6d6 as a prerequisite for an EB 9d6. If they have functionally identical SFX and are mechanically identical (except for value), all the "second" power require is that you spend enough points to get three more dice of Power A.

 

If they are different SFX, it might be keeping the 6d6 around, but it might just be cheaper to buy Variable SFX on it with another 3d6 than buying any other full Power.

 

Ultimately though, points should never be wasted. Everything on a character's sheet should be used for something, even if only rarely. Personally, I don't think needing to have it in order to buy something else counts as being used for something.