Flipped Die Rolls

[prestidigitator]

Okay. I've posted this before (a loooong time ago), but I have tweaked it a bit, and I'd like to get more feedback on it in any case.

 

There is absolutely no system change here: all costs and probabilities are exactly the same. This method of rolling should appeal greatly to D20 players, and also seems to make more sense to new players because it is usually intuitive to think, "the higher the better." So here goes.

 

Instead of trying to roll low for a skill, activation, or attack roll, flip it so that a higher roll is better. The basic method goes like this: roll 3d6, add the applicable modifier, and try to hit a target number.

 

Characteristics

Characteristics now have a modifier rather than a roll. This modifier is equal to the Characteristic divided by 5 (rounded). For example, if you have a 13 Str, your Str Modifier is round(13/5)=+3.

 

Skills

A Skill value is a pure modifier. Familiarity gives you a -1 modifier (sometimes I let players without even Familiarity to roll with some ridiculous modifier like -4). The initial cost of the Skill gives you a modifier equal to the Characteristic modifier for Characteristic-based Skills, or a +2 for Background skills. As usual this initial roll can be bought up by +1 for the usual cost and changed on the fly with Skill Levels.

 

Attacks

For attack rolls, your modifier is your OCV.

 

Target Number

As for what you need to roll, the "normal" target number for Characteristic and skill rolls is 12 (i.e. with your modifier applied to the roll you must get a 12 or higher). For attacks, the target number is 10 + Target's DCV. For activation rolls, subtract the normal activation from 21 (e.g. a 15- Activation Roll becomes a 6+ Activation Roll).

 

Situational Modifiers

Situational modifiers can modify your roll if they are given to you, like Range penalties, Targeting penalies, cover, and other obvious bonuses or penalties. Other situational modifiers the GM doesn't want to tell you about, or that (s)he simply prefers to handle him-/herself, affect the target number (raise it for penalties and reduce it for bonuses).

 

 

So let me know what you think.

 

[Edits: Adding a little of the obvious, and mostly just re-formatting.]

[Reln]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

I like it...probobly can't get my oldtimer Hero group to swich but it makes way more sense to me.

[concord]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Dare I say it... nah... I would be accused of backsliding...

 

sounds a lot like what Fuzion did with dice mechanics...

[Blue]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who feels that making hero more like other systems is a negative.

 

But then I don't have to teach people who've no idea what's going on. Most have played long ago or pick it up right away.

[Herolover]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Very neat system and it looks, on first glance, very useable.

 

I used to be in the group that wanted to change the dice rolls and modify how success and failure were decided. However, over time I have found that that the basic HERO system is pretty decent at hat it does. All the percentages stay the same you just change how you get to a point.

 

For those that want to change, hey go for it, but for me I am gonna keep it just the way it is.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

"Roll high = bad" and "roll low = bad" are pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned. I've played aplenty of games of both types. Why one would feel the need to change one into the other is really beyond me.

 

Just cause I've been drinking.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

All good points. I have always thought the system is great as is, but I have seen such corrollaries between it and D&D 3rd ed. that I at once:

 

1.) Wanted to see how similar they actually are, by playing with things to see how identical they would turn out to be.

 

2.) Wanted to capitalize upon the similarities to attract people who see too many differences between the two and don't want to have to deal with, "yet another system that looks really really complicated anyway."

 

I guess you could say I have a very rebellious, conservative bunch of friends. That is, they want to stay away from the Hero System because it is not what they (and the general roleplaying populace) are used to, and because I have been talking about Hero for years. Even the new ones aren't willing because they see it's not what everyone else is playing, etc. :sigh:

[Agent333]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

I did the same thing about five years ago for the same reasons. I wanted the math to be more intuitive and easy to pick up for new players (amazing how confused they become when you ask them to roll high for damage but low for everything else). I borrowed my method from Bill King's game "Wasteworld", the idea was to convert existing skill roll values into a simple add or subtract bonus to a 3D6 roll.

 

I decided to take existing skill values and subtract 11, this gives me a range of skill numbers from -3 to +5 (8- to 16- respectively). Your target number in every roll is 10, your 3D6 roll plus bonus must exceed this number. Therefore:

 

3D6 + Skill bonus > 10

 

If you use this method, be warned that I skewed the numbers to my own sense of play. To accurately represent the percentages given by HERO skills, subtract 10 (not 11) from the skill level when converting.

 

We run combat exactly as you described. I find it alot easier to run since combat doesn't come up as often as you might think in our games. Flipping the die roll system has worked great for me, and it requires very little in the way of changing the system. I hope you have the same experience, good luck bringing your friends to the fold.

[JmOz]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who feels that making hero more like other systems is a negative.

 

But then I don't have to teach people who've no idea what's going on. Most have played long ago or pick it up right away.

 

I suspect it is because of how versitile the system is that we like to try shaking it up some, consider it this way if we can fabricate the world we want to, does it not also make sense to try to fabricate the tools we want for it...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Well, unless I've misread something there doesn't seem to be any change in the probabilities (well, except for Familiarity, possibly?), so it wouldn't bother me.

 

To be quite clear, my opinion is that Hero should be a toolkit in terms of the way the mechanics apply, as well as in the way you build characters and worlds. I think the system should have a Roll High and a Roll Low mechanic, and eveyone should be able to choose the one they prefer, so long as it does not change how we need to note up characters, the system should be universal enough.

 

I would like skill rolls to work the same way as combat rolls, that WOULD make me happy.

 

I knnow there is a suggested roll method for combat rolls that makes them like skill rolls but that is not the same thing at all.

[Phil]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

I would like skill rolls to work the same way as combat rolls, that WOULD make me happy.

 

Then do it! Easy-peasy. 3d6+CHAR/3 to exceed 9+Difficulty level.

[yamamura]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who feels that making hero more like other systems is a negative.

 

But then I don't have to teach people who've no idea what's going on. Most have played long ago or pick it up right away.

 

You are not alone Blue and I agree with ya.

 

As for making it easier for D&D players, what about us who have come off of playing GURPS and BESM where low is good huh? Why should we have to confirm to the D&D crowd;)

 

G

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

You are not alone Blue and I agree with ya.

 

As for making it easier for D&D players, what about us who have come off of playing GURPS and BESM where low is good huh? Why should we have to confirm to the D&D crowd;)

 

G

LOL. Good point, but I'd have to counter that it is because the D&D crowd just seems to be less flexible and willing to try new things for some reason (at least that's my experience). You GURPies are a pretty easy-going crowd, and we all know, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease!"

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Well' date=' unless I've misread something there doesn't seem to be any change in the probabilities (well, except for Familiarity, possibly?), so it wouldn't bother me.[/quote']

Actually, the way I did Familiarity works out to the same probability as well. A -1 modifier means you have to roll a 13+ on 3d6 to succeed at a 12+ roll, and a 13+ roll is equivalent to a 8- roll.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Good feedback all. I like the ideas about skill/combat similarity; I'll have to think about how that will modify my curves. One of the good things about my roll modification scheme is that it allows me to take D&D/D20 source material/character creation constructs and make a very quick and easy conversion to Hero. Each +2 in D20 matches pretty closely to a +1 in Hero (or 1 D20 Skill Point = 1 Hero Character Point, approximately, and 1 D20 Feat = 3-4 Hero Character Points--usually [Combat] Skill Levels or Talents).

 

Thanks, and keep it coming!

[yamamura]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

LOL. Good point' date=' but I'd have to counter that it is because the D&D crowd just seems to be less flexible and willing to try new things for some reason (at least that's [i']my[/i] experience). You GURPies are a pretty easy-going crowd, and we all know, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease!"

 

You obviously never been to the free GURPS board (not that I would ever go there now that I am HEROite with GOOish leanings).

 

G

[rjcurrie]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Shouldn't any decent game have a mix of high-low requirements (that is, sometimes you want to roll high and sometimes you want to roll low)? Otherwise, why wouldn't the players invest in loaded dice that always roll high or always roll low?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Shouldn't any decent game have a mix of high-low requirements (that is' date=' sometimes you want to roll high and sometimes you want to roll low)? Otherwise, why wouldn't the players invest in loaded dice that always roll high or always roll low?[/quote']

Eh. So the red ones roll high and the white ones roll low. Players switch dice often enough anyway, just based on the belief that certain ones roll a certain way without any evidence of weighting.

 

Besides, haven't you ever gotten one that rolls in a corner and amazingly rolls quite well quite a lot of the time? If a player is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. Before stat buying systems came around in D&D, we pretty much decided players might as well make up their ability scores for all the "cheating" that got done. But what fun is cheating? Most players know this, I think. The best of them even realize having the crap kicked out of your character can be just as fun as whopping some ass anyway.

[David Blue]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Rolling to hit in "High-roll Hero", and telling the gamemaster what DCV you hit, simply explained:

 

"You hit if your adjusted OCV - here - equals or exceeds the defender's DCV - here. There are bonuses and minuses on a chart - here - depending on what both characters are doing. You will be told what modifiers apply to you (till you get used to the game) so you will know what your adjusted OCV is before you roll the dice."

 

"Then you roll 3 six-sided dice, and take a bonus or penalty to your OCV, which will give you your final adjusted OCV number. That determines whether you hit or miss."

 

"If you roll a ten, you hit if your final OCV is equal to or more than the defender's DCV, otherwise you miss. For each number above ten you roll, you gain a +1 bonus to your OCV, up to a roll of 18, which always hits."

 

Roll - OCV bonus

18 - hit!

17 - +7

16 - +6

15 - +5

14 - +4

13 - +3

12 - +2

11 - +1

10 - +/-0

It's that simple.

 

EXAMPLE: Your OCV is 7. The defender's DCV is 10. You roll 13. That's bonus three. 7+3=10 You hit!

 

"If you roll below ten, each number you roll below ten gives you a -1 penalty to your OCV, down to a roll of three, which always misses."

 

From ten down:

Roll - OCV minus

10 - +/-0

9 - -1

8 - -2

7 - -3

6 - -4

5 - -5

4 - -6

3 - miss!

 

EXAMPLE: Your OCV is 7. The defender's DCV is 3. You roll a 4. 10-4=6 You get penalty 6 to your OCV of 7. 7-6=1, less than the defender's DCV. You miss.

 

"Remember: 10 is evens. For each one you roll above 10, you get bonus +1 to your OCV. For each number you roll below ten, you get penalty -1 to your OCV. The final adjusted number is the one you call out."

 

"With a little practice, you should never need to look at a chart. We agree on your OCV after applying manoeuvres, you roll the dice and apply the obvious bonus or minus, and you call out what DCV you hit."

 

I like that. It's easy to explain, and it should be easy to train new players to roll and call that way The numbers are more intuitive to count than with rolling low. (Starting with 11 as evens, and counting down to bonuses for less and up to negatives for more, which is how I do it.) This might conceivably save time with some players.

 

The other benefits people have mentioned seem valid too.

 

And it makes absolutely no difference to the play of the game or to how characters have to be written. It's purely a way of making the existing system seem more intuitive to some players - which can be important.

 

This is an elegant and perhaps useful cosmetic trick. Rep for you, prestidigitator. Thank you.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

"Roll high = bad" and "roll low = bad" are pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned. I've played aplenty of games of both types. Why one would feel the need to change one into the other is really beyond me.

 

It doesn't matter which one the system uses, as long as it uses one. Going from high = bad to high = good in the same system was excusable back when Champions was new and the system was still working the bugs out, but now it's just sad.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

...why wouldn't the players invest in loaded dice that always roll high or always roll low?

 

Because they aren't scum? Geez, sometimes I think ... feh. I'm disgusted that you even asked that.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

As both a GM and a player, it's always been my opinion that anything we can do that increases the ease with which people can RP and the fun they have doing it is A Good Thing .

 

IME, simplifying game mechanics is often one way to help accomplish these goals. Having "high" OR "low" consistently be always == "good" or "bad" does help some players think -less- about game mechanics and +more+ about gaming.

 

As for cheaters, _any_ kind of cheaters, there's plenty of ways of dealing with this. If someone's dice seem overly non-random (which means too BAD OR too GOOD), I will give them other dice that I know pass chi-square testing. And/or provide dice cups. And/or have someone else roll for them. In the extreme (for a player who ROLLED HORRIBLY ALL THE TIME), I provided a pregenerated list of 1000+ rolls for them.

 

Botton line, I want to DE-emphasize mechanics as much as possible during game play so that everyone concentrates as much as possible on GAMING.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

Because they aren't scum? Geez' date=' sometimes I think ... feh. I'm disgusted that you even asked that.[/quote']

 

The only time a player bought a loaded die to a game, we all had a laugh: he'd got a piece of lead and nailed a dice to it.

 

It really would be a shame if people who played together felt the need to cheat at a game you can't win.

 

Still, so long as they don't mind the GM rolling behind his screen.....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

It doesn't matter which one the system uses' date=' as long as it uses [b']one[/b]. Going from high = bad to high = good in the same system was excusable back when Champions was new and the system was still working the bugs out, but now it's just sad.

LOL. Thank you, thank you! It is horribly sad, isn't it? I work so hard just to make the system look a little less intimidating to the only bunch of sad roleplayers I game with regularly.... :sigh:

[prestidigitator]

Re: Flipped Die Rolls

 

As both a GM and a player, it's always been my opinion that anything we can do that increases the ease with which people can RP and the fun they have doing it is A Good Thing .

 

IME, simplifying game mechanics is often one way to help accomplish these goals. Having "high" OR "low" consistently be always == "good" or "bad" does help some players think -less- about game mechanics and +more+ about gaming.

 

As for cheaters, _any_ kind of cheaters, there's plenty of ways of dealing with this. If someone's dice seem overly non-random (which means too BAD OR too GOOD), I will give them other dice that I know pass chi-square testing. And/or provide dice cups. And/or have someone else roll for them. In the extreme (for a player who ROLLED HORRIBLY ALL THE TIME), I provided a pregenerated list of 1000+ rolls for them.

 

Botton line, I want to DE-emphasize mechanics as much as possible during game play so that everyone concentrates as much as possible on GAMING.

Nicely put on all points, Ki-rin. I'm usually willing to do a little extra work to make things more pleasent for my players. I feel that one of the things about Hero is, once the players spend the little bit of time necessary to learn the basics of the system, the group as a whole has to think less about the mechanics. That's one of the things I love about Hero; it takes care of so many of the mechanics for you, in such a consistent manner (though I'm starting to have doubts about post-5ed. changes from what I see in the FAQs and hear about Revised), that you can waste far less time and energy worrying about how things work, and you can focus more on character development and story.