Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

[GaryB]

Does anyone out there use an alternative to the Speed chart for combat? If so, how do you handle it?

 

I feel sometimes in my game that the people who have lower speeds in my game suffer compared to the higher speed folk using the speed chart, almost needlessly. I'm willing to experiment with it and see what happens.

 

I have a rough idea for an initiative system, but I want to see what other people have cooked up as well.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Well, the people with higher Speeds do pay a lot more points, so...

[GaryB]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I expected such an answer; however they didn't pay to have more fun than the rest of the gang.

 

But the points value is not the point. I'm looking to make SPD and DEX still valuable. I'm just looking to see if anyone has any methods they have tried out.

[Vondy]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Dependent on the genre, I've been known to do one of the following: reduce the curve by defining an acceptable range, or to completely normalize the speed chart, meaning that everyone has the same speed (usually four).

[Fox1]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Does anyone out there use an alternative to the Speed chart for combat? If so, how do you handle it?

 

I feel sometimes in my game that the people who have lower speeds in my game suffer compared to the higher speed folk using the speed chart, almost needlessly. I'm willing to experiment with it and see what happens.

 

I have a rough idea for an initiative system, but I want to see what other people have cooked up as well.

 

 

I understand the problem. SPD can be viewed as spotlight time in the game, resulting in high speed characters getting more attention paid to them.

 

I don't use a different speed chart. I do however use average speeds (by a point) then HERO System typically does. Instead I approach the problem from a slightly different direction- you can be high SPD if you wish, but the real power in the group (higher DCs, special attacks, etc) go to characters of the typical SPD for the campaign.

 

So the high SPD guys get to do a lot, but the average/slow guys get to do the really uber power stuff.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I've often posted my initiative system on these boards. Do a search for RDU Neil initiative... you should find it.

 

In summary... it does devalue SPD... but like, you, I think this is necessary. Too often people are sitting on their thumbs waiting for their phase. The SPD chart makes one point of SPD way more beneficial than 10 points deserves... at least IMO.

 

I dumped the chart all together. Each player initiatizes every round (no more segmetns or phases). Roll a d6, add it to your SPD. That is your action number. Starting counting down from the highest action number, so each person gets to go AT LEAST ONCE every round.

 

Four rounds roughly equal a turn. There are no more post Seg 12 or any auto-recoveries, etc.

 

Based on this system... you can get 2 actions (or more) per round if you roll a high enough total action number. The break points are as follows...

2-10 = 1 action

11-16 = 2 actions

17-22 = 3 actions (extremely rare)

etc. (if you actually had Speeds over 20 you could get this high. Never happened in my games.)

 

Second actions happen AFTER all first actions... so even the thug or agent gets a shot off before the fast guy gets his second action.

 

It allows for some variation... cause SPD 5 guy could roll a 6 and get two actions... where SPD 8 guy rolls a 1 and only gets one action. Odds are against it, but it happens.

 

This really keeps players engaged and allows for a lot more actions in the same amount of game time... plus players don't feel the pressure to maximize the efficiency of their actions every phase... and combat becomes more dynamic, organic and dramatic. At least in my experience.

 

I'd suggest trying it, just to see how people feel about it. A high SPD player might feel that his speed isn't worth as much... and he'd be right, so he might want to change it... but I have players who have pushed their characters up to 7 and 8 SPDs as the increased chance of a second action really is seductive and effective in play... just not as overpowering as a guaranteed, lock step extra action as you get with the SPD chart.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

We still use the basic SPD rules and chart. Balance issues are generally dealt with up front at character creation/GM being willing to say "no", looking at the whole character - if you want a high speed and have high attacks, defenses, etc...something needs to come down.

 

If the SPD chart itself isn't the problem for you, but the fact that high-SPD characters seem much more effective, couple of ideas:

 

*Don't allow zero end on most combat powers, restrict reduced end. If Amazing Guy spends 12 end a phase, he might not go all out 7 times a turn.

 

*Up the cost of SPD. My favorite thought about this is to enforce NCM limits on SPD - double cost above 4. (Side note - if you thing STR, CON, etc are too efficient, enforcing NCM for everything could bring those more in line.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Does anyone out there use an alternative to the Speed chart for combat? If so, how do you handle it?

 

I feel sometimes in my game that the people who have lower speeds in my game suffer compared to the higher speed folk using the speed chart, almost needlessly. I'm willing to experiment with it and see what happens.

 

I've always viewed the SPD chart as central, and a differentiation of Hero from other systems. However, we've never had a problem with widely variant speeds. In Supers games, we've had the rare 4 SPD, common 5, less common 6 and occasional 7. Other SPDS have been encountered in NPC's but never PC's.

 

I can see a 3 PD characvter getting pretty bored if his teammates all have SPD 6 to 8.

[Herolover]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Hello.

 

I do not use any alternate systems, but what I have found is many players don't understand how to make the speed chart work for them.

 

1) Make sure your players have good ranges on their Speeds. By this I mean they should all be within at least 4 of each other. If you got a guy going at Speed 3 and one going at speed 8 or 9 you've got problems no matter what you do.

 

2) Make sure your players understand the use of Lightning reflexes, holding actions and aborting actions. I have found that many people's problems with the speed chart can be fixed by the proper use of these. When these actions are used you suddenly find that the "rigidness" of the speed chart goes away.

 

3) Realize that if you have a speed 3 guy and a speed 7 guy you are going to have trouble no matter what you do. No changing of the system is going to help speed 3 guy. The only thing that could help speed 3 guy is something that short changes speed 7 guy.

 

Perhaps if you explained more of your problem we could help

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

The problem (IMO) with SPD from a system standpoint is that it's a flat cost upgrade that makes pretty much everything else on the character more effective. It needs oversight to keep it balanced with the current system.

 

In lower point games, it's not as big of a problem, as each point of SPD eats up a big chunk of your points. Remember that back in the day, the recommended starting point levels were 200-250 for superheroes. Now at 350, spending another 10-20pts on SPD doesn't seem like as much. At Heroic levels, it's even more of an investment, at higher powered games from an effectiveness standpoint it's a no-brainer.

 

To really reflect its effectiveness, SPD should probably be an Advantage applied to the cost of the entire character, but the bookkeeping on that would be annoying. (ie start at SPD 2, to get to SPD 3 is +1/4 Advantage on the rest of the character, etc.)

[Silbeg]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

[quote=Herolover

3) Realize that if you have a speed 3 guy and a speed 7 guy you are going to have trouble no matter what you do. No changing of the system is going to help speed 3 guy. The only thing that could help speed 3 guy is something that short changes speed 7 guy.

 

4) Realize that a mature player that has made a conscious decision to have a SPD 3 character, when the campaign average is 5-6 will know what they are getting into.

 

Really, one of the best things about the HERO system is that there are costs and benefits to all decisions!

 

I have this situation in my game, currently. Perhaps the most powerful character on the team is the Kid Comet , who is a SPD 3 blaster/brick. One of the balancing issues for this character is that he only acts at SPD 3, which means a mistake will be with him for quite some time.

 

However, the player is perhaps the most mature RPGer I know, and will play his character regardless of what the "best wargaming" solution would be. In fact, he often doesn't even bother to use his multipower (which makes up 1/3 of his spent points)!

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

The problem (IMO) with SPD from a system standpoint is that it's a flat cost upgrade that makes pretty much everything else on the character more effective. It needs oversight to keep it balanced with the current system.

 

In lower point games, it's not as big of a problem, as each point of SPD eats up a big chunk of your points. Remember that back in the day, the recommended starting point levels were 200-250 for superheroes. Now at 350, spending another 10-20pts on SPD doesn't seem like as much. At Heroic levels, it's even more of an investment, at higher powered games from an effectiveness standpoint it's a no-brainer.

 

To really reflect its effectiveness, SPD should probably be an Advantage applied to the cost of the entire character, but the bookkeeping on that would be annoying. (ie start at SPD 2, to get to SPD 3 is +1/4 Advantage on the rest of the character, etc.)

 

I disagree. More Spd can eventually get to the point where it's useless. I've got a character who is a high powered speedster. He's got a 10 Spd. He started with a 10, and now, with almost 100 exp later, he's still got a 10. I never bought it up because there was never any reason. Going to an 11 just doesn't make sense, points-wise.

 

Remember that a character who bought +3 Spd could just have easily raised his 12D6 EB to an 18D6 EB, or raised his Force Field from 15/15 (total Def of 30/30) to 30/30 (total Def of 45/45). I don't think that Spd is that much more powerful than either of those increases.

 

Keep Spd within 3. Even a difference of 4 is too much.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

4) Realize that a mature player that has made a conscious decision to have a SPD 3 character, when the campaign average is 5-6 will know what they are getting into.

 

Really, one of the best things about the HERO system is that there are costs and benefits to all decisions!

 

I have this situation in my game, currently. Perhaps the most powerful character on the team is the Kid Comet , who is a SPD 3 blaster/brick. One of the balancing issues for this character is that he only acts at SPD 3, which means a mistake will be with him for quite some time.

 

However, the player is perhaps the most mature RPGer I know, and will play his character regardless of what the "best wargaming" solution would be. In fact, he often doesn't even bother to use his multipower (which makes up 1/3 of his spent points)!

 

If he wants to do that, that's fine. But I don't see how purposefully playing a poorly constructed character, or purposefully not using powers when they'd be useful, makes him a "mature roleplayer". If it's in character, that's fine, but I sense a connotation there that "wargaming" is somehow not "roleplaying".

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I disagree. More Spd can eventually get to the point where it's useless. I've got a character who is a high powered speedster. He's got a 10 Spd. He started with a 10, and now, with almost 100 exp later, he's still got a 10. I never bought it up because there was never any reason. Going to an 11 just doesn't make sense, points-wise.

 

At higher levels, absolutely. At lower SPDs, increases are significant. Going from 9 to 11 isn't nearly as much of a difference as going from 3 to 5.

[Silbeg]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

If he wants to do that' date=' that's fine. But I don't see how purposefully playing a poorly constructed character, or purposefully not using powers when they'd be useful, makes him a "mature roleplayer". If it's in character, that's fine, but I sense a connotation there that "wargaming" is somehow not "roleplaying".[/quote']

 

Actually, the character is very well constructed, but the character also doesn't always see the need to use "full power".

 

The point is, that in a wargame, you should always use your resources to get the best advantage on the battlefield. In an RPG, the character's persona needs to dictate what the character would do... which can be quite different than what would be the most tactically sound decision.

 

What makes him a mature RPGer is that he is willing to play his character, rather than play the tactical situation as a wargame. I hope this makes sense...

 

Think of it this way... how often in the comics do we see Superman fighting full out? He is more likely to take a hit, early, to guage the strength of his opponent, and then use only enough force to take out his opponent.

 

A typical RPG player would use Supe's full STR, SPD, etc., all the time, regardless of the situation. A player playing Superman would tend to hold back, take a couple of hits (knowing that it is unlikely that he would be actually hurt by it), and then return in kind (but without using excessive force).

[incrdbil]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I prefer to make my sacrifices elsewhere. I won't allow a speed gap of more than three among PC's. In practice, two is the operating limit.

 

So, for my starting group, the lowest speed is 5, the highest is seven. I'll probably allow the speedster to move up to 8, but thats it. If I'm unhappy with the 3 speed gap from fastest to slowest, I'd be more willing to let others come up to speed 6 (even the brick) that redo the system. I"m not too worried, because the speedster tends to use a deal of those extra actions on aborted dodges after making himself a target, flying dodges, removing innnocents and there is no envy I'm detecting from the slowest character, the Brick, who is left free to pound on others.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

HERO gamers tending to be inveterate system tinkerers, this subject pops up on the boards from time to time, and quite a few alternatives have been proposed and discussed. Below is a selection of such topics:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22712

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21191

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20222

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14160

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11041

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7609

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7368

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6407

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3250

[lemming]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I actually try to get my players to get speeds suitable to their play. I've been in campaigns where I had a SPD 4 character with other characters at SPD 15. Gave me time to figure out optimal moves and sketch. (or get pizza...)

 

It does seem to make a bigger difference at lower levels. My SPD 5 character in a Fantasy game had a lot of advantages. That free phase from interferance on seg 10 for instance.

 

If it's being a problem for you, then I would compact the SPD range of your PCs then.

[Silbeg]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I actually try to get my players to get speeds suitable to their play. I've been in campaigns where I had a SPD 4 character with other characters at SPD 15. Gave me time to figure out optimal moves and sketch. (or get pizza...)

Um, speed 15? Eh?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

I used a varient of this system for a game session, but didn't get much testing done. I'd like to try it out more sometime in the future. Keep in mind that the intent was to use it for a Heroic game, so high speeds would be pretty rare.

 

Instead of going on 12 first Turn, each character takes 1d6 and adds the smallest Period from their Period Sequence (see below). If someone has "surprise", they go on 0 (followed immediately by a "Post-Segment-12").

 

After that, each player determines when (s)he will go next by adding their Period to their last Segment. Instead of starting over at Segment 1 after Segment 12, I just kept counting, and each turn ends after a Segment divisble by 12 (12, 24, 36, 48, etc.). To determine your current Period, you just keep track of where you are in your Period Sequence as shown below (rotating schedule):

 

Spd..Period Sequence

1....12

2....6

3....4

4....3

5....3, 2, 3, 2, 2

6....2

7....2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1

8....2, 1

9....2, 1, 1

10...2, 1, 1, 1, 1

11...2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1

12...1

 

If you change speeds or lose track of where you were in your Period Sequence, you start back at the beginning. If you delay longer than your Period, you still keep progressing in your Period Sequence as if you hadn't, starting at the Segment you choose to act.

 

Also, if you are stunned, knocked out, are significantly surprised in combat, are the subject of a successful Pre attack (GMs discretion as to level of effect needed), or for some other reason are disoriented (GM's discretion), you add 1d6 to the current Segment and act as if that is when you "last acted;" you start at the beginning of your Period Sequence from there to determine when you go next.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Um' date=' speed 15? Eh?[/quote']

I, for one, still allow Speeds over 12 (though it is only very rarely going to happen--usually outstanding or exotic NPCs). As in 4th ed. you just go on Speed 12 and get extra Segments between the normal ones for the left over speeds (e.g. Speed 14 goes once each Segment and gets an extra Segment after normal Segments 6 and 12).

[lemming]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

Um' date=' speed 15? Eh?[/quote']

Very high powered game. Think SPD 12 + SPD 3. Act at 1/2 your DEX for the second phase in a segment.

[Herolover]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

One of the best alternate speed charts systems I have ever heard of is the one based on the Deadlands deck of cards.

 

It goes like this.

1) Take a normal deck of cards and throw out the jokers.

2) The deck is shuffled and each player draws a number of cards equal to his speed.

3) The GM starts counting down the cards and when a player's card comes up he can act.

4) The order of the cards go Ace to Duece and Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs.

 

So an Ace of Hearts beats an Ace of Diamonds. A King beats a 7 etc.

 

I have never actually used this, but would really like to try it out and see how it does.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

One of the best alternate speed charts systems I have ever heard of is the one based on the Deadlands deck of cards.

 

It goes like this.

1) Take a normal deck of cards and throw out the jokers.

2) The deck is shuffled and each player draws a number of cards equal to his speed.

3) The GM starts counting down the cards and when a player's card comes up he can act.

4) The order of the cards go Ace to Duece and Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs.

 

So an Ace of Hearts beats an Ace of Diamonds. A King beats a 7 etc.

 

I have never actually used this, but would really like to try it out and see how it does.

 

I've used this. It guarantees an action per point of SPD (which, IMO, is a bit much for 10 points) but gives a lot of variation about when those actions take place. I've used this, and like it much better than the lock-step Speed Chart... but I like my Initiative Probability even better.

 

One way to make it interesting, is to have each player stack their cards so you can only see their current action... so you do NOT know when their next action will be. Same for villains. This makes it interesting, as you think "Well... I'm moving ahead of Dr. D on THIS action... but I've only got a five for my next action, and that mean he could have two or three actions before I go again!" Adds some tension to fight!

[incrdbil]

Re: Alternative Combat Orders for Combat

 

\

 

It goes like this.

So an Ace of Hearts beats an Ace of Diamonds. A King beats a 7 etc.

 

I have never actually used this, but would really like to try it out and see how it does.

 

Way too random. characters can be left essentially floating, hanging motionless while a slower character gets a lot more actions. Besides all the mechanics and rules problems it brings up, it really makes tactics and team moves difficult, even impossible, and puts too much intothe hands of chance.

 

As a GM, I don't like it, and as I player, I'd definitely hate it, maybe enough not to play.