What we like about HERO

[lemming]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

The fact I can build anything I can think of. And then some.

And he's just talking about using the books for construction.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

And he's just talking about using the books for construction.

So now we need a video of how you can create an emergancy shelter using just a copy of 5ER as building material?

[teh bunneh]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

My biggest like: I can play any genre, any power level, without having to learn (or teach my players) new rules.

 

High powered, four-color, world-changing superheroes? Yup.

Low powered, gritty, iron-age superheroes? Yup.

High powered, lots of magic, high fantasy? Yup.

Low powered, gritty fantasy? Yup.

Modern special ops, Navy SEALs? Yup.

Dr. Who? Yup.

Star Wars? Yup.

Shadowrun? Yup.

 

I've played games where the PCs started with 750 points and games where they started with 25 points. I've played dozens of genres, and Hero works for them all -- without having to relearn the rules every time. It does cyberpunk as well as CP2020 (and better than Shadowrun); it does fantasy better than D&D and Rolemaster, and it does licensed properties better than just about any "official" licensed game I've played.

 

When someone in my group says, "Hey, I've got this great idea for a game set in the ice age, where you're all the defenders of your tribes and you've got magical powers, but technology is still at the stone age level," the only question we ask these days is, "How many points are we starting at?"

 

Bill.

[Silbeg]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

5th Revised STILL not including Piercing in it's power list.

[/Quote]

It appears in Dark Champions.

 

Vehicles. Sorry, vehicles still suck.

Then make your own. Remember, it is a toolkit, so if you don't like an implementation, reimplement!

 

The lack of adventures modules.

Again, the toolkit advantage can ring clear here. Buy an adventure module from any system that fits your genre. Then, as any good GM should be doing anyways, update it to your playing style, and system. Likely, this argument would be mostly a concern for a fantasy-style game, as competing (D20) systems have lots of modules! I am sure someone has done a D20 => HERO conversion chart (at least for levels, etc), and there are tons of creatures you can replace the D&D monsters, etc., with in the various source materials.

 

So, while HERO isn't selling many modules (though there are some... Champions Battlegrounds was very good, and I liked reading Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth, though I am not planning on running it. Villainy Amok looks to be a good source for Champions adventure ideas...

 

So, I think I disagree with this being a problem.

[Fox1]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

It appears in Dark Champions.

 

Yes I know. But I want it to appear in the core rulebook.

 

 

Then make your own. Remember, it is a toolkit, so if you don't like an implementation, reimplement!

 

Again, the toolkit advantage can ring clear here. Buy an adventure module from any system that fits your genre. Then, as any good GM should be doing anyways, update it to your playing style, and system.

 

 

I thought the question wasn't what I could or could not do. I thought it was want I like or didn't like about published HERO.

[archermoo]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

I thought the question wasn't what I could or could not do. I thought it was want I like or didn't like about published HERO.

 

Ah. My take on the question was that it was "What do you like/not like about the HERO system." In fact, one of the things that the OP put in the "like" column for HERO was "if you can imagine it, you can built it, often multiple ways". Doesn't sound like he was just talking about things that have been written up in either the core book. Or for that matter just talking about what was in the published material.

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

What I like: you can do almost anything with it.

 

What I don't like: mostly stupid little things. Skills don't impact ability and are roll-under, disadvantages use negative reinforcement, hit points, derived stats bug the hell out of me, and a lot of the game is superhero-centric (with things causing knockback and costing end by default). My only real gripe is that the whole effect-instead-of-cause idea makes powers defined only in game terms, so when you try to be creative with your abilities there is no in-game support. Didn't stop me from buy two Hero books this weekend, though.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

...and a lot of the game is superhero-centric (with things causing knockback and costing end by default).

Knockback's an optional rule.

My only real gripe is that the whole effect-instead-of-cause idea makes powers defined only in game terms' date=' so when you try to be creative with your abilities there is no in-game support.[/quote']Huh? Ya lost me.

[Nyrath]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

I love the elegance of the toolkit. It handles anything. It scales nicely. If you can simulate a superpower by two different routes, chances are it costs exactly the same. There are little or no accursed "ad hoc" rules. And powers can be written in a remarkably concise form.

 

This all came together for me when I read the original Fantasy Hero. The Dungeons and Dragons's Monster Manual was a clunky crude piece of work by my standards. All the monsters had several paragraphs of ad hoc rules that were unique to them. You were lucky to fit four monster descriptions on a page.

 

I leafed through the Fantasy Hero book, and came across the monster table. Ohmygod! Each monster had a full description, with a complete listing of any bizzare powers and abilities it had and all of this was in a single line!!!. The equivalent of the entire D&D monster manual in two pages.

 

I was in love. I jettisoned D&D for Hero and never looked back.

[archermoo]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

Huh? Ya lost me.

 

I think what he is saying is that since you buy the effects of the powers rather than the cause of the power (i.e. 10d6 Energy Blast rather than the ability to throw bolts of flame) you are more limited in what you can do with the power than otherwise. That is at least a similar argument I've heard.

 

I'd say that's what power stunts are for. And for that matter, I for the most part like the idea that you need to purchase all of the things that you do with your powers. Or at least all of the ones that you use on a regular basis.

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

Knockback's an optional rule.

 

That's not the point. If you are using knockback, then some powers have it built in, and some don't, rather than having it as an adder that can be applied to anything. Range is similarly variable from power to power, some are based on AP and others are LOS.

 

Huh? Ya lost me.

Say my character can create large amounts of water as their power. They might have all sorts of weird attacks, defences, and so forth reflecting what they can do with their water. Then say they get trapped down a well. They could create enough water to fill the well and then float to the top, right? Except they have no power that represents this ability, even though it is an obvious use of their abilities. Now, the GM can always just say it works, or water guy can have a big 'water powers' VPP (and every other character the same thing for their powers), but then the system isn't really supporting it, is it? If my character can do 4d6 damage with a water blast, how much land can he irrigate in a day? Can electro-girl recharge the batteries in my flashlight? Can I use my sword focus to chop down a door?

 

One thing I enjoy while playing is creative problem solving and I find that a little more difficult when my powers are defined by what they do in the game world rather than what they are in my imagination. Still, it's not an insurmountable problem, and SFX helps, but I hate relying on GM fiat.

[nexus]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

That's not the point. If you are using knockback, then some powers have it built in, and some don't, rather than having it as an adder that can be applied to anything. Range is similarly variable from power to power, some are based on AP and others are LOS.

 

IIRC, almost all ranged powers have range based on active points and the same formula Mental powers are line of sight. Powers that don't innately do Body, don't have Knockback.

 

Say my character can create large amounts of water as their power. They might have all sorts of weird attacks, defences, and so forth reflecting what they can do with their water. Then say they get trapped down a well. They could create enough water to fill the well and then float to the top, right? Except they have no power that represents this ability, even though it is an obvious use of their abilities. Now, the GM can always just say it works, or water guy can have a big 'water powers' VPP (and every other character the same thing for their powers), but then the system isn't really supporting it, is it? If my character can do 4d6 damage with a water blast, how much land can he irrigate in a day? Can electro-girl recharge the batteries in my flashlight? Can I use my sword focus to chop down a door?

 

Of course you can use your sword to chop down a door. There's even rules for damaging walls and objection. Doors have Defense and Body. Assuming your "sword" does a Attack of some sort. Go for it.

 

One thing I enjoy while playing is creative problem solving and I find that a little more difficult when my powers are defined by what they do in the game world rather than what they are in my imagination. Still, it's not an insurmountable problem, and SFX helps, but I hate relying on GM fiat.

 

You're doing that in most games. In Marvel for example, you didn't get an exact amout of water that Amazing Water Blast produced. You got column to roll on to determine what the chance of doing something. Gm fiat was the difficulty. You can do that Power Skill and SFX. No system could cover every single option and possibility, at least without being 10 times thicker than the dread Tome already is.

[tesuji]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

You're doing that in most games. In Marvel for example, you didn't get an exact amout of water that Amazing Water Blast produced. You got column to roll on to determine what the chance of doing something. Gm fiat was the difficulty. You can do that Power Skill and SFX. No system could cover every single option and possibility, at least without being 10 times thicker than the dread Tome already is.

 

a means of reflecting the ability for "off the cuff" powers that is common in genre used in some other system is to allow "reasonable powers" that dont exist on the character sheet at a cost of fatigue/hero pt expenditure for each such use.

 

So for example, you could use the water thing as a version of "flight" or levitation" etc to get out of the well, the sfx being "filling the well with water" and certainly you could recharge the batteries and so forth.

 

HERO has started along this path with the POWER SKILL, which seems a bit underused, but it seems from all the mechanics i have seen in HERO 5 and the USPDB that the current rules intend it to only add very small Ap effects, not something potent for just a moment. This seems odd, especially given the current editions seeming feel that AP isn't a good benchmark anyway.

 

But, obviously, a creative GM can allow these things by fiat or by house rules allowing xp expenditure in a game. i wouldn't, for instance, be inclined to say no if a player wanted to buy a new MP slot that fit well his multipower SFX off the cuff during play, if it was reasonable. however, from other threads, i know some Gms do, preferring to say no because the power isn't bought yet.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

Say my character can create large amounts of water as their power. They might have all sorts of weird attacks, defences, and so forth reflecting what they can do with their water. Then say they get trapped down a well. They could create enough water to fill the well and then float to the top, right? Except they have no power that represents this ability, even though it is an obvious use of their abilities. Now, the GM can always just say it works, or water guy can have a big 'water powers' VPP (and every other character the same thing for their powers), but then the system isn't really supporting it, is it? If my character can do 4d6 damage with a water blast, how much land can he irrigate in a day? Can electro-girl recharge the batteries in my flashlight? Can I use my sword focus to chop down a door?

 

One thing I enjoy while playing is creative problem solving and I find that a little more difficult when my powers are defined by what they do in the game world rather than what they are in my imagination. Still, it's not an insurmountable problem, and SFX helps, but I hate relying on GM fiat.

Ah. I see. Thank you for the explaination.

 

I'm not sure I see the point about your "creative problem solving / GM fiat"....being able to do all those things in another game system is either by GM fiat (the GM says "sure, why not"), or is something like Marvel's Power Stunt. It's all up to the whim of the GM. And, as has been pointed out, there is the "Power Skill" in HERO.

 

To each their own, though.

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

IIRC' date=' almost all ranged powers have range based on active points and the same formula Mental powers are line of sight. Powers that don't innately do Body, don't have Knockback. [/quote']

 

And this makes perfect sense in a Champions style campaign, but when those powers are being to construct other, weirder powers it doesn't make so much sense. Should my acid thrower (that does body) do knockback? Of course not, but it's easily fixed under the Hero rules (disadvantage: does not do knock back). The point I'm making, though, is that the DEFAULT is assumed to be a Champions style campaign, and advantages and disadvantages are available to make powers more generic, rather than starting with generic powers to begin with. It's not a big deal, I just hate having to look up whether I need to take certain advantages or if it's already included when I'm creating a power. Thank God for Hero Designer.

 

Of course you can use your sword to chop down a door. There's even rules for damaging walls and objection. Doors have Defense and Body. Assuming your "sword" does a Attack of some sort. Go for it.

 

Two character's have +3d6HKA OAF. For one, it's a sword. For the other it's a magical amulet that glows whenever a punch is thrown. Who can cut down a rope bridge faster?

 

You're doing that in most games. In Marvel for example, you didn't get an exact amout of water that Amazing Water Blast produced. You got column to roll on to determine what the chance of doing something. Gm fiat was the difficulty. You can do that Power Skill and SFX. No system could cover every single option and possibility, at least without being 10 times thicker than the dread Tome already is.

 

I never said other games did it better. I still think Hero is the best system out there. People were discussing dislikes in the system, I merely mentioned one thing I found mildly annoying. I hate relying on GM fiat, mostly because of some of the bad GM's I've had who had bizarre ideas of how the laws of physics work.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

And this makes perfect sense in a Champions style campaign' date=' [b']but when those powers are being to construct other, weirder powers it doesn't make so much sense. Should my acid thrower (that does body) do knockback?[/b] Of course not, but it's easily fixed under the Hero rules (disadvantage: does not do knock back). The point I'm making, though, is that the DEFAULT is assumed to be a Champions style campaign, and advantages and disadvantages are available to make powers more generic, rather than starting with generic powers to begin with. It's not a big deal, I just hate having to look up whether I need to take certain advantages or if it's already included when I'm creating a power. Thank God for Hero Designer.

...snip...

 

That's a pretty weak complaint because the alternative solution of making a default attack (HA or Energy Blast) not do Knockback (or at least Knockdown) without an advantage then throws off the entire 5 point elegance of the system with regard to STR damage. I would hazard a guess the ratio of damaging effects that Do Knockback vs. those that Do No Knockback is very high.

 

HM

 

EDIT: added knockdown. However, I defer to the superior response by Nexus.

[nexus]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

And this makes perfect sense in a Champions style campaign, but when those powers are being to construct other, weirder powers it doesn't make so much sense. Should my acid thrower (that does body) do knockback? Of course not, but it's easily fixed under the Hero rules (disadvantage: does not do knock back). The point I'm making, though, is that the DEFAULT is assumed to be a Champions style campaign, and advantages and disadvantages are available to make powers more generic, rather than starting with generic powers to begin with. It's not a big deal, I just hate having to look up whether I need to take certain advantages or if it's already included when I'm creating a power. Thank God for Hero Designer.

 

I still don't think I'm getting what you're trying to say here. You want the powers to be be more generic? Knockback is a campaign rule. You can decide that you're not using it and no power does knockback unless you get the advantage. Most Heroic games don't use Knockback. Mental Powers always have LOS range unless you the as GM decide otherwise, Heroic or Superheroic.

 

Two character's have +3d6HKA OAF. For one, it's a sword. For the other it's a magical amulet that glows whenever a punch is thrown. Who can cut down a rope bridge faster?

 

Whoever rolls the most damage when they "attack" the bridge. The SFX of the Killing Attack doesn't matter in that case, unless you want to make it matter.

 

I never said other games did it better. I still think Hero is the best system out there. People were discussing dislikes in the system, I merely mentioned one thing I found mildly annoying. I hate relying on GM fiat, mostly because of some of the bad GM's I've had who had bizarre ideas of how the laws of physics work.

 

That's a perfectly understandable reaction. I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping on you.

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

I still don't think I'm getting what you're trying to say here. You want the powers to be be more generic? Knockback is a campaign rule. You can decide that you're not using it and no power does knockback unless you get the advantage. Most Heroic games don't use Knockback. Mental Powers always have LOS range unless you the as GM decide otherwise' date=' Heroic or Superheroic.[/quote']

 

All right, everyone forget I mentioned knockback. It was an example.

 

My original comment was: the base statistics for most powers are designed with a champions style campaign in mind. If it were up to me, all powers would be designed so that they have the same base statistics. In other words, all powers would have the same base range, all either do knockback or not do knockback, and so forth. Obviously, whether a power was instant or continuous would stay the same.

 

That's a pretty weak complaint because the alternative solution of making a default attack (HA or Energy Blast) not do Knockback (or at least Knockdown) without an advantage then throws off the entire 5 point elegance of the system with regard to STR damage. I would hazard a guess the ratio of damaging effects that Do Knockback vs. those that Do No Knockback is very high.

 

Yes, it is a weak complaint, I stated that at the outset. I think it says something about Hero that the most negative thing I can say is a weak complaint. Now my complaints about Rifts, *those* are strong complaints.

 

As for the '5 point elegance', isn't that also thrown off by invoking the no knockback campaign rule? What I suggest is no different than keeping the no knockback rule, but then allowing the 'does knockback' advantage for any power.

[Ki-rin]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

My biggest like is the by-and-large fundamental Game Balance Equation of

+5 Ap= +(1d6)= +1 Body= 2x the effect on the same amount of mass= the same effect on 2x the mass.

 

This is an energy balance equation, and it allows _anything_ to be constructed or done in a game balanced way over a very wide range of AP without "breaking" the game or resorting to "special case rules" if it is used cleverly enough.

 

BTW, A.J.Gibson, the above is exactly how I'd deal with your "off the cuff" natural uses of a PC's powers. Using your chracter sheet and the above equation I can tell you just how difficult it is and/or how long it takes and even what extra you'd need if you can't already do "it". No matter what you want to do.

 

So yes, I can tell your water SFX based character exactly what they have to do to get out of a well, or fertilize a field, or ... etc. ...And I can tell your electrical SFX based character how long it would take for them to recharge a battery- or how much it would help their abilities to "drain" any specific power source, or ...etc.

 

My biggest gripe with HERO is the flawed movement system in general, the unbalanced impulse chart in specific, and the resultant high cost of SPD in specific. Because of the flawed movment system, SPD is a "special case": It costs _far_ more than any other characteristic and it can't be rounded. These are blemishes on an otherwise superior system.

 

We have tried a trick learned from Star Fleet Battles to help fix this and it seems to work better than HERO "as written":

A) We use a SPD chart whose maximum number of phases is equal to that of the fastest character in the tactical situation.

We use what seems under playtest to be more balanced phase chart(s):

1 x x x x x x 1 1 1 1 1

2 x x x 1 1 1 x x 2 2 2

3 x x 1 x x x 2 2 x 3 3

4 x 1 x x 2 2 x 3 3 x 4

5 x x x 2 x x 3 x 4 4 5

6 x x x x x 3 4 4 5 5 6

7 1 x 2 x 3 x x 5 x 6 x

8 x x x 3 x 4 5 x 6 7 7

9 x 2 x x 4 x x 6 7 x 8

A x x x x x 5 6 7 8 8 9

B x x 3 4 x x 7 x x 9 A

C x x x x 5 6 x 8 9 A B

 

1 x x x 1 1

2 x 1 1 x 2

3 x x x 2 3

4 1 x 2 3 x

5 x 2 x x 4

6 x x 3 4 5

 

Are the House impulse charts with a maximum SPD of 12 and 6 respectively. These impulse charts being more "balanced" allowed us to experiment with lowering the cost for SPD to +5 CP= +1 SPD.

 

We've also experimented both with allowing the rounding of SPD and in different ways of treating am "x.3" SPD as being different from a "x.4" SPD.

 

But overall, HERO is a great system that needs just a few tweaks to outgrow it genre-specifc 4CC roots.

[nexus]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

All right, everyone forget I mentioned knockback. It was an example.

 

My original comment was: the base statistics for most powers are designed with a champions style campaign in mind. If it were up to me, all powers would be designed so that they have the same base statistics. In other words, all powers would have the same base range, all either do knockback or not do knockback, and so forth. Obviously, whether a power was instant or continuous would stay the same.

 

Ah, ok. I see what you're saying. Thanks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

I see a few people saying one of the things they don't like about Hero is the low-rolling aspect of skills/characteristics/attacks. If you haven't, please check out the simple method I describe in my "Flipped Die Rolls" thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29611

 

As for what I like about Hero (in comparison to other systems), in no particular order:

 

• A truly universal system that succeeds where (I feel) others fail.
  
• The toolkit aspect.
  
• The focus on game mechanics that support, rather than define, special effects.
  
• All rules in one book, with suppliments providing guidelines, source material, and a few minor rules modification suggestions.
  
• The smoothness between revisions. Now I'm not sure how far this reaches back, because I jumped on board in 4ed., but the changes between 4ed. and 5ed. feel very managable, and I would feel comfortable owning the only 5ed. rulebook among players who have only 4ed.
  
• The very scalable optional rules and combat system. If I want simple, I can easily cut back from even the basic combat rules. For example, I can ignore End and ignore Stun except when it exceeds someone's Stun total or Con. On the flip side, I can use any combination of optional rules to make things as complex, realistic, etc. as I want.
  
• The "Limited Power" Limitation.
  
• The simplicity and consistency of the system. I believe Hero really is simple; incredibly so. The problem is that it has the masquerade of a very complex system, and tends to put people off. I currently spend most of my energy trying to combat this.
  
• The approach that I feel to be a good attempt at modeling real world physics. Others seem to disagree a great deal, but as a scientist, I feel very at home with rules that attempt to make objects roughly "four times" as hard to hit if they are twice as far away or half the size in all dimensions, and that match mass to volume, scale strength to the order of magnitude of body mass, etc.
  
• The bell-shaped 3d6 probability distrubution, and how it naturally places such significance on small differences in ability.
  
• The double damage limit on weapons, and the affects on attack and damage of dexterity, strength, skill (or lack thereof), etc. In comparison, let me mention a system in which a character could very easily do 1d8+26 damage with a sword and 1d2+26 damage with a spoon!
  
• Okay. I'll stop. There are innumerable other things.
  

[prestidigitator]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

What I dislike?

 

The only thing I can think of is that HERO isn't as popular as DnD and it should be...it should be MORE popular. Thats the only "negative" aspect that I can find about Hero. No, really. I like it that much.

Well said!!! I agree 100%!

[Sketchpad]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

What do I like about the Hero System? Wow is that a novel waiting to happen ... let's just say that I like the Hero System because it's the Hero System and leave it at that, 'k?

[zornwil]

Re: What we like about HERO

 

I think the holistic yet open-ended design of HERO is what I like best, and why I'm appalled by the many, many caveats and exceptions in some areas, particularly Adjustment Powers.

 

I like the divorcing of SFX from Powers (which, btw, is a major ingredient in what has made Adjustment Powers in general such a thorny topic, since the matrix of SFX and Power Affected creates so many potential complexities that are unsatisfactorily addressed).

 

I like that it works so well for superhero roleplaying.

 

I think that's a reasonable "top 3" reasons, though I may be ignoring something easily!