Need help with arcane and divine magic.

[Yamo]

I'm currently trying to convert the D&D Forgotten Realms setting to HERO.

 

I'm thinking of using a single Power = single spell system for now.

 

The question is this: How do I best differentiate in HERO terms between the two types of magic: Arcane and divine?

 

I don't want limits like "arcane spellcaster can't heal" or "divine spellcasters can't shoot fireballs." This isn't D&D, and I don't want that kind of arbitrary baggage. Besides, powerful mages have been healing and clerics of fire gods shooting flames for years in the D&D Realms, so that would be a bad approach anyway. I don't want to use set spell lists because, again, this is HERO, so why limit unnecessarily?

 

I'm thinking maybe this:

 

1. Arcane spells require -2 worth of Limitations that can never be "bought off."

 

2. Divine spells require -2 worth of Limitations that can never be bought off, 1/4 of which has to be the following Limitation:

 

Limited Power: Caster Must Abide By Religious Restrictions Or Lose Access To Spell Until Proper Atonement Is Rendered (-1/4)

 

Additionally, divine spells can't be "out of character" for the diety granting them. No death spells for clerics of Sune, in other words.

 

Divine spellcasters would also need a two-point Fringe Benefit Perk representing their membership in the clergy of their diety.

 

Looking over what I have so far, I can't help but feel that it's hard to not make divine magic "worse" than arcane in HERO. In D&D, clerics have more "limited" magic, but they also have the balancing factor of unrelated things like higher hit points, better chances to hit, and better weapons. It's hard to enforce that in HERO.

 

Unlike with wizards, they'd have to choose from effects that reflected their diety's nature and abide by their diety's dictates.

 

Requiring less Limitations is one idea, but it's a mixed blessing at best in a Heroic game where they'd probably just add more of their own to get a reasonable number of spells at a reasonable cost.

 

Any ideas?

[Old Man]

I've given this some thought myself. In my view, sorcery is based largely on process and knowledge--speak the correct incantation and make the proper sign with your fingers, and magic ensues. In contrast, divine magic is based on the faith of the cleric and his or her standing wrt the god(s) in question.

 

The existing limitations structure in Hero is much more suited to the former than the latter. Many of the limitations for divine magic need to be behavior-based--fasting on holy days, not eating meat, vows of silence or celibacy, facing east and praying five times a day, etc. It's hard to make some of these into real limitations in a FH campaign, and even harder since it has to be tied in so closely with the campaign setting. After all, all the adherents of a given faith ought to have the same set of lims.

 

Even harder than that is the problem of the healing factory. What's stopping a divine magician from curing everyone who shows up on his doorstep? It doesn't make sense to have divine magic run off caster END, but at the same time there has to be some limit--perhaps a 'divine favor' END reserve, though END reserves are much too cheap.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Yamo,

 

1. Arcane spells require -2 worth of Limitations that can never be "bought off."

 

2. Divine spells require -2 worth of Limitations that can never be bought off, 1/4 of which has to be the following Limitation:

 

Limited Power: Caster Must Abide By Religious Restrictions Or Lose Access To Spell Until Proper Atonement Is Rendered (-1/4)

 

This is almost exactly how I do it. K.I.S.S. is my middle name...

[Yamo]

This is almost exactly how I do it. K.I.S.S. is my middle name...

 

Than how do you handle nobody ever wanting to play divine spellcasters because their spells all cost the same as arcane ones but are thematically-limited by the character of their diety?

 

Divine casters are flat-out worse under such a system, since the wizard can cast anything he wants, but the healing god cleric it out of luck if he wants a death spell.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Yamo

Than how do you handle nobody ever wanting to play divine spellcasters because their spells all cost the same as arcane ones but are thematically-limited by the character of their diety?

 

Divine casters are flat-out worse under such a system, since the wizard can cast anything he wants, but the healing god cleric it out of luck if he wants a death spell.

 

But the divine spellcasters have -1/4 less worth of other Limitations on their spells. I know, it's not really much of a consolation.

 

Try this: They both have to have -2 worth of Limitations that can't be bought off. Divine spellcasters get the additional -1/4 you mentioned.

 

Clerics might also get a Social Limitation: Subject to Orders (of deity). I wouldn't call it double dipping, as other things can happen if they disobey (like, their immortal soul goes to whatever hell the deity uses to scare his worshippers with, or maybe he just gets blasted by bolts from the blue).

[tesuji]

for a game world i was generating i decided to take the differentiation a step further.

 

Dieties gave blessings to their devout followers in reward for service. now you did not have to be a priest to get a blessing but it sure helped.

 

So i would not have "spells" at all for religious types. instead they would get blessings which were simply supernatural abilities bought as powers without the typical worry of massive limitations.

[Yamo]

So i would not have "spells" at all for religious types. instead they would get blessings which were simply supernatural abilities bought as powers without the typical worry of massive limitations.

 

Alright. Let's say that I do something like this.

 

I require a minimum of -2 worth of Limitations on arcane spells, but for divine spells, I require only the -1/4 Limitation for having to abide by religious restrictions or lose access to the spell.

 

Is this balanced? Does it give divine casters enough compensating for having a smaller amount of effects to choose from? Does it make them too powerful? Or is it no benefit at all in a low point total Heroic setting where they'd probably still have to pile on the Limitations to have any decent spells anyway?

[i3ullseye]

Well, in order to keep the divine on Par....

 

ARCANE: at elast -2 in limitations, one of which must be -1/4 spell failure if armor is worn. Then set them up buying individual spells and working from there.

 

DIVINE: at least -2 limits, one of which must be -1/4 to follow the mandates of the faith. Then set this up like a gadget pool which is set at each morning prayer.

 

I also like to use END reserves for divine magic, to represent drawing their might from an otherworldly source.

 

ARCANE based on INT, and DIVINE based on EGO.

 

ARCANE can have expendable Foci and gestures, DIVINE can have fixed foci for holy symbols.

 

You can certainly keep the flavor of each, make them different, and yet balanced.

[feywulf]

Depending on the flavor you want clerics to have, you could say that there is no difference between divine and arcane magic. If a cleric wants to cast spells, then he or she can learn the wizardly arts.

 

Another alternative is to say that clerical spells aren't cast by the cleric, they are cast by the cleric's deity. This way, the cleric doesn't buy any spells, just the power to commune with their deity to ask for a divine aid.

 

Assuming that a deity has a gigantic mindlink to listen to the prayers of all of the deity's followers, all a cleric needs is to make a presence attack to get their deity's attention, and then ask for a favor from their god. The god doesn't have to answer the request, or provide the kind of assistance the cleric wants, and sometimes deities are busy warring with the dark side of the pantheon, or battling other supernatural threats.

 

Another style would be to have clerical magic be the result of a cleric slowly transforming into a divine being through worship and basking in the presence of their god. The cleric spends exp buying the parts of the divine being package, and when they get to a certain point, the 'angels' come down and escort the cleric to a higher plane, leaving behind the mortal realm.

 

Clerics are a subset of a deity's followers, and you may want to formalize the relationship between a deity and his or her followers with a package. A follower would buy a small psych or social lim, and spend the points they recieved from it on powers for their god(usable by others at range, transdimensionally, only one other can use the power, only usable by other). Divide the points up between adding to the deity's vpp, and end reserve. A cleric would buy the "worshipper of deity" package, but might buy off the "only usable by other" limitation and spend points to give the deity more power than a regular follower.

 

Depending on how loyal a cleric is, their deity could lend some of the deity's vpp to the cleric, as the cleric is most of the time lending their points to the deity to give it more power and strength.

[Markdoc]

You already have the key in your hand :-)

 

You have already specified one of the limits for divine magic - the deity's favour.

 

Why not specify some limits on arcane magic?

 

If casters of Divine magic can pray for any spell their deity offers, that gives them a potentially much wider range of spells (at first) than an arcane mage who has to find or derive his own. But it sounds like a VPP and you may not want to go that route.

 

But a very simple way to get the flavour you want is REQUIRING all arcane spells to to take the concentration limitation at at least the half DCV level.

 

That means that divine spellcasters can don armour, pick up a mace or whatever weapon their deity favours and wade into combat to play combat medic or holy warrior.

 

Arcane mages may choose to go the armour and weapons route, but since casting magic in combat will lower their DCV and make them more vulnerable, many will choose to put points into magic and let the fighters handle the wet stuff.

 

You can justify it by saying all the Divine caster is really doing is calling on his deity to handle the magic stuff, while Arcane spellcasters need to concentrate to focus their will, summon mana from another place or whatever it is they actually do.

 

The beauty of it is that it encourages your players to adopt the sterotypical roles you want them to play, but allows them the freedom to choose whether they want to play it that way.

 

cheers, Mark

[tesuji]

Yamo...

 

I think part of the issues arising here stem from trying to decide how the world works based on how the system works, making the "reality" fit the system than vice versa.

 

So, in NON-HERO speak, what are the three most significant difference you want to see palpable and evidenced in game session play between a mage character and a cleric character? What are the important difference you want to show in your world between the two?

 

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Also, what are the gods like in your world? Their aspects will greatly determine some of the answers you are looking for here. Are there a few, maybe less than 6, or are there many of myriad different levels and perhaps even different pantheons? Do they typically remain aloof from direct contact or is this a Greek mythos where bastard offspring make up the typical world of the hero and where it is even likely that some of your adventuring party is of divine lineage? (I had some divine ancestor package deals in the kit for my Grecian HERO game a while back.)

 

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A different question, to try and set a context, is this already presuming that mages are using your unrestricted VPP system for spells, where it can be assumed that a mage has access to practically any spell?

[Legendsmiths]

I think instead of opening it up to any -2 limitations, I think you should get specific. That's where the flavor comes from. If you leave it open ended it will feel empty and it will be hard to distinguish between the two.

 

As for the END thing. I use a limitation called "Piety Based Power -3/4" in addition to "Divine Stricture, -1/4".

 

Piety Based Power

Cost: 3/2 (Based on PRE)

Peity is a talent based on PRESENCE with a cost of 3/2. Using powers based on Peity requires a successful roll with a penalty of -1 per 10 active points. If the roll succeeds, the power is channeled. If the roll fails, but not by more than the penalty, the power succeeds but piety is reduced by penalty/3 (minimum 1) until the next sunrise. If the roll fails by more than the penalty, Piety is till reduced but the power does not succeed. All piety based powers are 0 END without any additional advantage. However, all powers have a duration of 1 phase. Increasing the duration is possible by applying a +¼ advantage to the power for every tep down the time chart (i.e. 1 turn, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 20 inutes, 1 hour, 6 hours, 1 day) in duration. No power may last longer than 1 day.

 

This is essentially a variant of the Ablative limitation. If a cleric draws on a lot of divine power, he is less likely to do it the next time. His deity doesn't give out power simply because his followers demand it. They have to have earned the right to use it, and use it wisely not carelessly.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Yamo,

 

I guess I have players who don't let that bother them. In my last campaign I have 2 priests, 1 holy warrior type, a fighter type, and a thief type. NO mage at all.

[Lucius]

Different Powers?

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious thing to do to differentiate them - make them different in terms of Detects, Dispels, etc. That is, a Dispel Arcane will not affect Divine powers, a Suppress Divine will not effect Arcane powers, etc.

 

Beyond that, a lot depends on what you WANT.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)