Autofire Images

[NuSoardGraphite]

It says in FREd that Autofire when used with Images does not get the additional +1 Advantage cost which is normally applied to non-attack powers used with Autofire. However, it doesn't really go on to state how Autofire would work with Images, just stating that Images that overlap don't add their perception penalties together.

 

Anyone have any ideas on how to work an Autofire Image?

 

The idea I have is a character who can make multiple images of himself to confuse attackers as to his real position. What I want is the Perception penalty to be based on how many Images are seen. If there is only 1 Image (the enemy sees two characters) then there is no penalty to the perception roll. Each additional Image after the first adds a -2 Penalty to the perception roll up to a maximum of -8 with a total of 5 Images.

 

How exactly would you work that?

 

I'm thinking that you purchase the Image (1 hex, limited range) with Autofire and include the cost for the -8 Perception Penalty. Would there be a special limitation to represent the fact that the Perception penalty depends on how many Images ("shots" of Autofire) are used?

 

Of course, each Image costs the full End to generate, so this can get expensive and can't be maintained for very long....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Autofire Images

 

You've got it, from what I'm reading... Autofire makes lots of the same image all at once (instead of 1 Image/Activation).

 

To simulate a penalty based on the amount of Autofire I would use Partial Limitations..

 

-0 Perction if 1 Image made (0 Lim); -2 Perception: must make 2 Images (-1/4); -2 addtl Per (-4 Total): must make 3 Images (-1/2); -2 addtl Per (-6 Totla): must make 4 Images (-1/2); -2 Addtl Per (-8 Total): Must make 5 Images (-1).

 

or something like that.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Autofire Images

 

The idea I have is a character who can make multiple images of himself to confuse attackers as to his real position. What I want is the Perception penalty to be based on how many Images are seen. If there is only 1 Image (the enemy sees two characters) then there is no penalty to the perception roll. Each additional Image after the first adds a -2 Penalty to the perception roll up to a maximum of -8 with a total of 5 Images.

 

How exactly would you work that?

 

I'm thinking that you purchase the Image (1 hex, limited range) with Autofire and include the cost for the -8 Perception Penalty. Would there be a special limitation to represent the fact that the Perception penalty depends on how many Images ("shots" of Autofire) are used?

 

Of course, each Image costs the full End to generate, so this can get expensive and can't be maintained for very long....

 

Uhh... no. You're wasting your points.

 

Images can be anything. Images can be an image of one of you, or of 8 of you. Images can be 16 giant penises hopping around singing Ricky Martin songs. Just make sure you buy up the area on your Images to cover where you want them all to go.

 

What would Autofire do? Umm, I guess it'd let you create multiple Images of the area that you bought, but at that point it's just cheaper to buy the area up enough to cover the whole freakin' battlefield. Sometimes putting Advantags on certain powers will be a waste of points. What would Penetrating Images do? Who the hell knows.

 

See, the problem you're running into is that you're buying the -8 to Perception anyway, and then you're buying Autofire in addition to that (making it much more expensive), buy you're not getting any benefit out of it.

 

Buy Images, with the Perception penalty, and buy up the area. Then, if you want, you could put a limitation on it that you have to make to-hit rolls for each Image or something. But you don't need Autofire.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Uhh... no. You're wasting your points.

 

Images can be anything. Images can be an image of one of you, or of 8 of you. Images can be 16 giant penises hopping around singing Ricky Martin songs. Just make sure you buy up the area on your Images to cover where you want them all to go.

 

What would Autofire do? Umm, I guess it'd let you create multiple Images of the area that you bought, but at that point it's just cheaper to buy the area up enough to cover the whole freakin' battlefield. Sometimes putting Advantags on certain powers will be a waste of points. What would Penetrating Images do? Who the hell knows.

 

See, the problem you're running into is that you're buying the -8 to Perception anyway, and then you're buying Autofire in addition to that (making it much more expensive), buy you're not getting any benefit out of it.

 

Buy Images, with the Perception penalty, and buy up the area. Then, if you want, you could put a limitation on it that you have to make to-hit rolls for each Image or something. But you don't need Autofire.

Er, ah, well stated. I guess. Ricky Martin.... Anyway, I agree that Autofire isn't necessary. That you can't employ the -8 all of the time is really more of a Limitation than an Advantage. I'd use a RSR of some kind to determine "how many" images you can produce, an apply it only to the Adder for the Per penalty. Give it a -1 per 5 active points in the Power (provided you have no other Advantages built in), and each point by which you make a successful roll can give your opponents a -2 on their Per rolls (approximately, and up to the limit of your -8). It changes the RSR a little bit from the all-or-nothing deal it usually is, so it might be worth 1/4 less, but I think it works.

[devlin1]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Images can be 16 giant penises hopping around singing Ricky Martin songs.

Wait-- those are just images? That's a relief. I thought they were backup singers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Wait-- those are just images? That's a relief. I thought they were backup singers.

Nah. Background singers would require more points. You'd have to include the Hearing Sense and Flash Defense vs. Hearing.

[devlin1]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Nah. Background singers would require more points. You'd have to include the Hearing Sense and Flash Defense vs. Hearing.

Hearing Sense? Hardly! They're lip synching.

 

And I have Hearing Flash Defense built into my TV remote. Little power called "Mute."

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire Images

 

The idea I have is a character who can make multiple images of himself to confuse attackers as to his real position. What I want is the Perception penalty to be based on how many Images are seen. If there is only 1 Image (the enemy sees two characters) then there is no penalty to the perception roll. Each additional Image after the first adds a -2 Penalty to the perception roll up to a maximum of -8 with a total of 5 Images.

 

Champsguy is right, you don't need Autofire for this Power.

 

Actually, I'm not sure you are handling the PER Penalty right. What is it you want to do, make it so that the observer can't tell you from an image, or make your images more realistic? The PER only makes the image more realistic. Then again, if you can equate that to the observer can't tell the images from the real you, I suppose that works.

 

Basically, I'd probably write up the Images (no PER Penalty) versus the appropriate senses and enough range to cover where you want the images to be (with the Limitation, if applicable, for only being able to make images of yourself). Then buy the PER Penalty Seperately, with the same Advantages and Limitations as the Images (because it is part of that Power), plus a RSR (OCV Roll). Aim at the hex the furthest image of you will be in and make an Attack Roll. For every point you make the roll by, you have a -1 to the observer's PER Roll. Alternately, you can base the RSR on an a seperate Skill or even a CHAR Roll if you feel that's more appropriate.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Autofire Images

 

A bit more info on the power:

 

The SFX of the power is a character who moves so fast as to appear in multiple places at once. There is a posiblity that when a character attacks one of the images, he has moved on to a different location. A successful Perception roll on the part of an attacker shows them exactly where the character is at that moment and they will be able to strike the correct image and hit the character with their attack. A failed PER roll means that they chose incorrectly. (Of course, the best way to solve this problem is to use an Area effect attack or attack all images with Sweep/Rapid Fire or Autofire!)

 

A cool visual effect I was thinking of to go with this power is that the character can pull off this Power (creating multiple images of himself) then use Sweep or Rapid Fire to attack multiple times and make it appear as if each image is attacking! That should be confusing for any enemies he encounters (will probably have 1 or 2 attacks with the Indirect Advantage so its "legal")

 

I've written it up two different ways. One with Autofire, and one with Area of Effect (built in the Images power) and there is only a 2pt difference in the cost with the Autofire version being the more expensive. (18 and 20 points respectively)

 

Assault Mirage (Autofire version):

Images: Vs Sight (+10) Hearing (+5) Smell (+5) 20pts

--1 Hex AE(+0) -8 Perception rolls (24) 44pts

--Autofire-5 (+1/2) 66 Active Points

Limitations: Set Effect (-1) Limited Range (-1/4) Restrainable (-1/2)

--Custom Limitation (only applies to PER Penalties cost)

--PER Penalty: Only works when:

-- -2 PER(9): 2 Images are present (-1/2) 3pts

-- -4 PER(9): 3 Images are present (-1) 2pts

-- -6 PER(9): 4 Images are present (-1 1/2) 2pt

-- -8 PER(9): 5 Images are present (-2) 2pt

Total Lim: -1 3/4 (11)

Total cost: 20pts

 

Assault Mirage (AE version):

Images: Vs Sight (+10) Hearing (+5) Smell (+5) 20pts

-- -8 PER rolls (24pts) 44pts

-- 3" radius (+1/2) 66 Active Points

Limitations: Set Effect (-1) No range (-1/2) Restrainable (-1/2)

--Increased Endurance (only applies to cost of PER Penalties)

-- -2 PER(9) X2 End (-1/2) 2pts

-- -4 PER(9) X3 End (-1) 2pts

-- -6 PER(9) X4 End (-1 1/2) 2pts

-- -8 PER(9) X5 End (-2) 2pts

Total Lim: -2 (10)

Total cost: 18pts

 

The Set Effect is the fact that the character can only create an image of himself.

 

In the Autofire version, the Limited range represents the fact that the Images must be placed fairly close to the activating character...within 5" or 6" of him, but he should be able to place them anywhere within that range around him. This is superior to the Area Effect version, which is limited to a 3" radius around the character. However, the images can move anywhere within that 3" making them a bit more versatile in what they can do.

 

The Custom Limitation in the Autofire version represents each "shot" of autofire carrying additional PER penalties with them stacking up as more Images are produced. The limitations may seem hefty, but if you look at the Area Effect version, you can see that the limitation was costed exactly like that of Increased Endurance of an equivalent amount that would be used when using the Autofire version.

 

The total Endurance cost of both versions when used at full is 33 End! It breaks down like this:

 

Images: End

1: 6 End

2: 13 End

3: 20 End

4: 26 End

5: 33 End

 

Pretty expensive, to be sure, so I don't think its over-powered at all. It can't be maintained over time for very long because of the prohibitive End cost. Of course, the character could always keep the Images down to only 1 or 2 for the lower End cost (which he should when facing less competent opponents) but that gives a greater chance for the opponent to spot the real character.

 

What do you guys think? Is there another way to write up this power, or is this pretty much how it should be done? Inquiring minds want to know...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire Images

 

What do you guys think? Is there another way to write up this power' date=' or is this pretty much how it should be done? Inquiring minds want to know...[/quote']

 

As far as other ways to write it up, there are many. From just buying Images (no special Limitation on the PER Roll Penalty) and just saying he uses the same number of "afterimages" each time, or that the number doesn't matter and the Per Roll would be the same (and the GM ruling that the more images of yourself you create, the more of a bonus the onlooker gets (which should happen anyway) but the more images the onlooker needs to make a PER roll to see as fakes. Another, far simpler way (though not nearly as satisfying) is to just buy a bonus to DCV Cost END with the same SFX.

 

How should it be done. Only you and your GM can answer that one.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

What do you guys think? Is there another way to write up this power' date=' or is this pretty much how it should be done? Inquiring minds want to know...[/quote']

Well, for one thing you could just place all the images in one hex. I would still think they would have to spread an EB or use an Area of Effect to ensure that they hit you on any given attack if they failed their Per roll (or do some kind of Sweep or Rapid Fire and hit every image in one Phase). The up-side of that is that it would cost less. The down-side is that whatever attack they used against you to ensure a hit would only have to fill one hex.

 

BTW, I think your End calculations for the AoE version aren't quite right. Since the Increased End Cost only applies to each level of the Per penalties (9 APs each), I think the maximum End cost given the build you gave would be 15 (9x2/10+9x3/10+9x4/10+9x5/10=2+3+4+4=13, +24/10=2 for the base Images part).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Autofire Images

 

 

BTW, I think your End calculations for the AoE version aren't quite right. Since the Increased End Cost only applies to each level of the Per penalties (9 APs each), I think the maximum End cost given the build you gave would be 15 (9x2/10+9x3/10+9x4/10+9x5/10=2+3+4+4=13, +24/10=2 for the base Images part).

 

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I'm not concerned about it. I want the End cost to be expensive, so I simply included the increased End limitation to include the entire power, not just the Perception Penalties.

 

If I did it right it would cost:

 

1 Image: 3 End

2 Images: 5 End

3 Images: 8 End

4 Images: 12 End

5 Images: 16 End

 

This is with the base End cost of 3pts for the initial power, then additional End multiplied by the amount of the PER penalty used...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Autofire Images

 

As far as other ways to write it up, there are many. From just buying Images (no special Limitation on the PER Roll Penalty) and just saying he uses the same number of "afterimages" each time, or that the number doesn't matter and the Per Roll would be the same (and the GM ruling that the more images of yourself you create, the more of a bonus the onlooker gets (which should happen anyway) but the more images the onlooker needs to make a PER roll to see as fakes. Another, far simpler way (though not nearly as satisfying) is to just buy a bonus to DCV Cost END with the same SFX.

 

Hmmm...I think you may be on to something here.

 

How about both Images and DCV levels!

 

Link the DCV levels to the Images power. If the onlooker fails their perception roll, then the DCV levels apply. The more images present, the higher the DCV levels. (are Autofire DCV levels applicable? Probably not ) making the character harder to hit, because there's so many images to choose from (AE will of course, ignore this bonus)

 

Hmmm...

 

Ultimately I think I'm going to go with Autofire Images.

#1: The Endurance cost is more to my liking. (I'm insane, I know, but I want 4 or 5 Images to be tiring for the character)

 

#2: With normal AE images, the more images the character produces (i.e. the more complex the image) the easier it is to spot it as an Image...which is exactly the opposite of the effect I want to generate. With Autofire Images, each Image is a seperate entity on its own....as long as I don't have each image doing something complicated, they shouldn't get any PER bonuses to spot them as fake. Technically, with Autofire Images, they should have to make up to 5 PER rolls to tell the difference, but thats going a bit far I think. I'll be satisfied with 1 PER roll at a hefty penalty to spot the real character amongst the Mirages...

 

I probably won't need the DCV levels, but its a pretty good idea.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Autofire Images

 

One thing to note about Autofire vs Larger Area ... is that I believe (could be way off on this) you have to make a PER vs EACH instance of an Autofired Image (fire it five times, that's five PER rolls) to determine if it's the fake or not, where as with simple Large Area Image you only need to make one role to find the fake.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I'm not concerned about it. I want the End cost to be expensive, so I simply included the increased End limitation to include the entire power, not just the Perception Penalties.

 

If I did it right it would cost:

 

1 Image: 3 End

2 Images: 5 End

3 Images: 8 End

4 Images: 12 End

5 Images: 16 End

 

This is with the base End cost of 3pts for the initial power, then additional End multiplied by the amount of the PER penalty used...

Gotcha. Oh, yeah, you're right. I grabbed the wrong value for the original Power. 30 APs. Heh.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire Images

 

One thing to note about Autofire vs Larger Area ... is that I believe (could be way off on this) you have to make a PER vs EACH instance of an Autofired Image (fire it five times' date=' that's five PER rolls) to determine if it's the fake or not, where as with simple Large Area Image you only need to make one role to find the fake.[/quote']

 

That would make sense.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

That would make sense.

Yeah, I guess it makes sense, though if an opponent made their Per roll against one Image, I would probably give them a bonus against the other Autofired ones (they have a good idea that they are Images, and know what "flaws" to look for).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Yeah' date=' I guess it makes sense, though if an opponent made their Per roll against one Image, I would probably give them a bonus against the other Autofired ones (they have a good idea that they are Images, and know what "flaws" to look for).[/quote']

 

Thinking about how it would work though, what the attacker is really doing is trying to tell which image is the real character. They'll only need one PER Roll for that. If the power was bought as one Image (no autofire), they'd just get the modifier from the Images Power and be done with it (modified by how complex the Image is). If there are several Images, each seperate, I might increase the penalty by -1 for each doubling of Images in the area.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Autofire Images

 

Thinking about how it would work though' date=' what the attacker is really doing is trying to tell which image is the real character. They'll only need one PER Roll for that. If the power was bought as one Image (no autofire), they'd just get the modifier from the Images Power and be done with it (modified by how complex the Image is). If there are several Images, each seperate, I might increase the penalty by -1 for each doubling of Images in the area.[/quote']

 

Yeah, this is pretty much the effect I'm looking for. Some good ideas in here...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Autofire Images

 

I probably won't need the DCV levels' date=' but its a pretty good idea.[/quote']

 

It's classic HERO thinking.

 

The ultimate effect is that you get hit less often. The reason is that people are taking pot shots at images of you rather than you but the ultimate game effect is that youy are harder to hit. The game mechanism for that is higher DCV and thus you get levels of DCV that cost END (increase END to taste). You could have another limitation that the levels can be removed through a successful PER roll. You could modify the success of PER rolls by using negative levels against other people's PER rolls....

 

Doesn't look as evocative on a standard character sheet but a power description would look very similar if not identical.

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Re: Autofire Images

 

It's classic HERO thinking.

 

The ultimate effect is that you get hit less often. The reason is that people are taking pot shots at images of you rather than you but the ultimate game effect is that youy are harder to hit. The game mechanism for that is higher DCV and thus you get levels of DCV that cost END (increase END to taste). You could have another limitation that the levels can be removed through a successful PER roll. You could modify the success of PER rolls by using negative levels against other people's PER rolls....

 

Doesn't look as evocative on a standard character sheet but a power description would look very similar if not identical.

 

Doc

 

Of course, using Images instead of DCV levels works better for avoiding those Area of Effect and Explosion attacks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Autofire Images

 

In the Autofire version' date=' the Limited range represents the fact that the Images must be placed fairly close to the activating character...within 5" or 6" of him, but he should be able to place them anywhere within that range around him. This is superior to the Area Effect version, which is limited to a 3" radius around the character. However, the images can move anywhere within that 3" making them a bit more versatile in what they can do.[/quote']

I just ran into this accidentally over the weekend (after completely forgetting it), and I thought I'd throw it out there in case it conflicted with what you wanted to do. Normally when aiming different shots from an Autofire Power at different targets/hexes, you must expend exactly one shot per hex, and all hexes must be adjacent. You actually need a Skill to change this (though you could, of course, add in a Skill bought as Power to your construct).

[techogre]

Re: Autofire Images

 

The DCV w/END cost is much simpler to use and is probibly the best way to do it. It effectively does the same thing, make you harder to hit, with less complexity.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Autofire Images

 

The DCV w/END cost is much simpler to use and is probibly the best way to do it. It effectively does the same thing' date=' make you harder to hit, with less complexity.[/quote']

 

I've already decided that simple DCV levels isn't enough. I want everyone within LOS range to see multiple images of the character. This will not only affect his enemies (making him harder to hit) but others as well since they see multiple versions of the character (a friend of the character wishes to hand him something...but which image should he hand it to?) a simple DCV modifier doesn't cover all the potential strengths and shortcomings of a power of this nature...

 

Here's but one example:

 

Our Hero is fighting several enemies, and they have surrounded him. He blurrs for but a moment then suddenly six copies of himself appear! The enemies seem confused for a moment, but quickly recover their wits and attack all at once.....

 

In this situation, Image Guy has just produced 5 images of himself (for a total of 6...5 fake 1 real) so the enemies have to decide which image to strike. If they guess wrong (bad Per roll) then they hit naught but air.

 

However, DCV guy has just gained a DCV bonus of +5 (lets say that makes his DCV a 12 or so making him quite difficult to hit) with the SFX of having multiple images, thus harder to hit. However, Since DCV guy is surrounded, his DCV when getting hit from behind is only a 6, making him about a 50/50 chance of being hit!

This is not at all in line with what the power is supposed to be able to do. Even if a guy is attacking him from behind, he still should have the same chance at hitting air as all the other guys if he guesses wrong...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Autofire Images

 

I've already decided that simple DCV levels isn't enough. I want everyone within LOS range to see multiple images of the character. This will not only affect his enemies (making him harder to hit) but others as well since they see multiple versions of the character (a friend of the character wishes to hand him something...but which image should he hand it to?) a simple DCV modifier doesn't cover all the potential strengths and shortcomings of a power of this nature...

 

Here's but one example:

 

Our Hero is fighting several enemies, and they have surrounded him. He blurrs for but a moment then suddenly six copies of himself appear! The enemies seem confused for a moment, but quickly recover their wits and attack all at once.....

 

In this situation, Image Guy has just produced 5 images of himself (for a total of 6...5 fake 1 real) so the enemies have to decide which image to strike. If they guess wrong (bad Per roll) then they hit naught but air.

 

However, DCV guy has just gained a DCV bonus of +5 (lets say that makes his DCV a 12 or so making him quite difficult to hit) with the SFX of having multiple images, thus harder to hit. However, Since DCV guy is surrounded, his DCV when getting hit from behind is only a 6, making him about a 50/50 chance of being hit!

This is not at all in line with what the power is supposed to be able to do. Even if a guy is attacking him from behind, he still should have the same chance at hitting air as all the other guys if he guesses wrong...

 

To carry that logic one step further...

The characters that are attempting to see through the illusion are going to have an easier time of it if your character is not controlling the individual reactions of each and every image to make them realistic (unless you are purchasing this with the uncontrolled advantage). You can't do that from the front or center of the group of images without either exposing your back to the characters or having a 360 degree sense of some sort.

 

I echo the sentiment that bonus DCV levels are an easier build and a good GM should handwave the from behind loophole based on SFX.

 

HM